Christ's History ~ Why the Delay In Recording It?

I find it rather funny that people would hint that the apostles had no need to document the life of Jesus because they felt he would return in their life time. This alone shows that christianity was flawed from the very beginning. There was no blue print to spread the so-called good news and the apostles were deluded. Everything about this religion doesnt add up for me. If Jesus intended his message to be futuristic and universal, he would put a mechanism in place to achieve that. All we have now are people talking of oral tradition. How do one memorize whole books containing thousands of verses? Isn`t it suspicious that modern christianity as we know it today was founded by Paul, a known murderer instead of one of the apostles? I personally prefer to remain on the fence rather believing a fairy tale.

reply to post by Wonders

I am simply trying to understand the world I live in. I mean no disrespect to anyone.

reply to post by aaaiii


Has anyone considered that maybe they did record his history at the time of his life and death and that it was stolen, or burned, or destroyed or hidden away for protection ?

Am I the only one thinking like this here ?

reply to post by LucidDreamer85

Well.....honestly.....I think you are the only one thinking that. But it's a good thought.

Originally posted by aaaiii
reply to post by Wonders

 

I am simply trying to understand the world I live in. I mean no disrespect to anyone.

I understand, know that intention means nothing unless it's actions reflect the intention.
You implied earlier that you believe Jesus to be dead, that he "was alive" but now is not, whilst Scripture says that He is alive, that He is the Alpha and Omega, who was and is and is to come.
If you can get people to believe one lie about God, you can get them to believe in anything, that is, anything except the truth.

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by karen61057

 

I think you read somewhere, a bit of BS disinfo.

I don't know what else to say to you. Seriously. Apart from a little snippet of testimony:

Even today there are attested miracles occurring in the lives of believers. As just one example, a member of our church, who had been declared legally and clinically blind (due to degradation of the optic nerves) woke up one morning after a night of prayer with other church members, and found that he could see again. The doctors have no explanation, and simply wrote it up as an inexplicable spontaneous regeneration of the optic nerves. Which is, according to our entire understanding of medicine and physiology, a MIRACLE.

Any proof of this miracle actually ocurring?

Thought not. All these things are just hearsay, there's never any actual physical proof.

What about people who lose limbs? If enough people pray for them will their arm/leg grow back? Funny how you never hear of that happening isn't it...

reply to post by Wonders

I don't know what or where he is. I'm on a journey to find out.

Please don't spoil it for me with organized Christian hostility.

Those kind of people are like the mob, without spaghetti.

Originally posted by pro-all
I find it rather funny that people would hint that the apostles had no need to document the life of Jesus because they felt he would return in their life time. This alone shows that christianity was flawed from the very beginning. There was no blue print to spread the so-called good news and the apostles were deluded. Everything about this religion doesnt add up for me. If Jesus intended his message to be futuristic and universal, he would put a mechanism in place to achieve that. All we have now are people talking of oral tradition. How do one memorize whole books containing thousands of verses? Isn`t it suspicious that modern christianity as we know it today was founded by Paul, a known murderer instead of one of the apostles? I personally prefer to remain on the fence rather believing a fairy tale.

Ahh "the fence", how safe is such a place? Lets say you were perched atop the Great Wall of China, and the time came for the wall to be torn down, what would you say to those around you? "Keep the wall intact, let me remain on this wall no matter what it represents." Or would you say, "Let me get off the fence before it gets trampled and I in the process."
When it comes to beliefs, you show where you stand in the eyes of those who have an understanding of the standards, seeing the differences between their right and their left.
I am of the opinion that Jesus did intend His message to be futuristic and universal, that he did put a mechanism in place to achieve that. You may see the Scriptures as "oral tradition", but there is nothing new under the sun, all that has been will be, and there is no memory of that which has been. Moses and the Prophets were treated unjustly because of their beliefs, so too it is today.
You asked how one can memorize Scripture. Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to remind us of everything He spoke and to teach us all things, that would include an understanding of the Scriptures and would show us the future as well, which is known as the Spirit of Prophecy. I do think that there is something fishy about Paul, I beleive that He directly contradicts Jesus in some of what he says that Christians are known for their staunch adherance to such as "we are no longer under the law", amongst a host of other teachings. I am not a Christian but I do believe that IGNORANCE is displayed and respected when one speaks of that which they either do not know, or knows what is said but chooses to disrespect based on even one lie.

Most ancient histories were not written in a permanent form until many years after the events described - and sometimes the permanence of the record was more chance than design.

For example, there is a wealth of papyrus scraps of the NT, mostly discovered in Egypt in the last 150 years. The oldest is P52, estimated to be in the first half of second century (i.e., maybe between AD 99-150), a mere fragment smaller than a 3x5 card with only about five words on each side -- John 18:31-33 on one side, 18:37-38 -- indicating that originally it could not have had more than maybe ten verses front and back. Papyrus was used for very temporary documents and this and the other scraps were found only because they were part of a large pile of other (non-biblical) papyri in the ancient equivalent of a garbage dump, buried for centuries under the extremely dry sand of Egypt. There are a few hundred papyrus remnants of the NT now known and using them it may be possible to reconstruct perhaps half of the NT text, but since many of these papyri were expected and intended to be very temporary, they might contain a lot of errors.

Parchment and vellum were (and are) expensive and used by the ancients only for documents intended to last. Very probably the ancient church was too poor to afford vellum - at least until the Christians attained some real influence around the fourth or fifth century, which happens to coincide with the earliest parchment NT portions. The oldest parchment NT manuscripts are the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, both believed to be fourth century. NT manuscripts written before the tenth or eleventh centuries tend to be fragmentary; they suffered a lot of damage from use and, in the centuries before Scotch Tape, it was generally the practice to discard tattered copies when newer copies became available - although the copying process had a lot of opportunities for errors to creep into the text.

There are entire books on this topic and it makes for interesting reading.

Six centuries later, in Arabia, the Koran was compiled using not only papyrus scraps but supposedly stuff scrawled on palm leaves and coconut husks. Religions started by poor folk seldom have classy documentation of their beginnings.

reply to post by EnzoD


There is proof, but it would involve giving you the person's name, address, and confidential medical records. Which obviously isn't going to happen. So take your cynicism and invest it in something useful, like the study of ethics in politics.

Why do you think miracles of healing are hard to prove? Because people like you would rip them to shreds for daring to share the truth of their experience. Simply stated, too much personal information needs to be divulged in order to prove the event - information which could be misused to target the individual for harassment.

Sorry but this is what I think of the whole thing

Originally posted by aaaiii
As believer in the man, Christ, I have often wondered why his faithful waited 100 years or more to record an historical record of his life.

If he was such an important figure, performed miracles, spoke profoundly on life, was the son of God, why was there such a long period of time between his death and the actual record of his history?

If he was such an important figure why did his disciples not record everything he said and did while he was alive?

Was he possibly made into a more important figure ex post facto to suit the needs of a burgeoning Church?

We have numerous fragments of the gospels written on papyrus dating to the second century and a recent find of the gospel of Mark from the first century and very possibly written in the time of thos who walked with Christ. You must remeber the papyrus Gospels wore out from use and much of the writings were destroyed during the prosecution of Christians by both Jews and Romans .

My question is if this guy was so important, why wasn't there anything written about his childhood/teenaged years? Where was he? What was he doing?

I have come to my own conclusion about Jesus, but I will follow the thread because it has been interesting so far.

Originally posted by pro-all
I find it rather funny that people would hint that the apostles had no need to document the life of Jesus because they felt he would return in their life time. This alone shows that christianity was flawed from the very beginning. There was no blue print to spread the so-called good news and the apostles were deluded. Everything about this religion doesnt add up for me. If Jesus intended his message to be futuristic and universal, he would put a mechanism in place to achieve that. All we have now are people talking of oral tradition. How do one memorize whole books containing thousands of verses? Isn`t it suspicious that modern christianity as we know it today was founded by Paul, a known murderer instead of one of the apostles? I personally prefer to remain on the fence rather believing a fairy tale.

Deny ignorance do not embrace it , if you had any clue how stupid this statement sounds you would not have posted it . First off Jesus said the end would not come until the gospel was preached to the whole world , sounds like he had a long term idea going on in that statement . Then you state a mechanism was needed for this to happen , uh hello Einstein the bible is here and has more proof of its authenticity than any other ancient document ever . The fact it is poured over by both believer and non believer alike is a testament to its power to provoke thought and change . You sir or madam are a hypocrit that opines out of hate and ignorance , keep up the good work.

reply to post by EnzoD


So sight for the blind, and hearing for the deaf isn't enough? The lame walking and restoration for the diseased isn't enough? God has to re-grow limbs to prove His existence?

Seek, and you will find.

But I bet you've never set foot in a church where the Holy Spirit is active, or asked someone to pray with you, or asked God to reveal Himself to you, have you? I can make assumptions too, it's really quite easy.. Many people would much rather God didn't exist, because then they wouldn't have to be accountable to anyone but themselves.

Matthew 13:14

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Incidentally, there is a story (second-hand testimony) that there were limbs that grew back in the Azusa Street revival of the early 1900's. You can research it if you like, but you won't get any video footage. Some things must be taken on faith - a commodity of trustfulness sorely lacking in the modern world.

Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

reply to post by fixer1967


Your original thought astounds me. Really, the depth of your commitment to understanding the purpose of the Bible staggers me. I wish I had been able to avoid falling into the trap of believing in God and having my life vastly enriched as a result. Damn, I wish I could be just as empty and capable of distorting truth as the person who created that image you used in your fascinating exposition of your personal theological convictions.

Bless you for being so darn committed to your atheism. That much commitment takes faith!

Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by R_Clark
Interesting link on this subject with bibliotecapleyades
Saying that the true authorship was Calpurnius Piso ....
www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

Yes, that is where my research led me too. I think "Jesus Christ" was actually Julius Caesar, and the story of Jesus was taken from the story of Mithra.

Mithra, Sungod of Persia

The story of Mithra precedes the Christian fable by at least 600 years. According to Wheless, the cult of Mithra was, shortly before the Christian era, "the most popular and widely spread 'Pagan' religion of the times." Mithra has the following in common with the Christ character:

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
He performed miracles.
He was buried in a tomb.
After three days he rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."
He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."
He was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.
His sacred day was Sunday, "the Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter, at which time he was resurrected.
His religion had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper."

Source
Both Mithras and Christ were described variously as "the Way," "the Truth," "the Light," "the Word," "the Son of God," "the Good Shepherd." Mithra is often represented as carrying a lamb on his shoulders, just as Jesus is. Knowing this, it is easy to see how this myth evolved into modern Christianity.

We really need to eliminate these fallacies from this topic. All that is needed is a few minutes of research to see they do not pan out except for the main supposed similarities are recent additions.

Wikipedia:

Mithra: Numerous archeological finds, including meeting places, monuments, and artifacts, have contributed to modern knowledge about Mithraism throughout the Roman Empire.[7] The iconic scenes of Mithras show him being born from a rock, slaughtering a bull ...

Horus: Horus was born to the goddess Isis after she retrieved all the dismembered body parts of her murdered husband Osiris, except his penis ...

For that matter even what we do know is conjecture and in this instance basically obfuscation.

Now it is at the point of just being annoying.

Originally posted by aaaiii
reply to post by GD21D

 

Yes, but Christ was a teenager at the time of Augustus' death.

Was he already speaking to the people then? I thought that came later.

Well, there was this time when he got lost preaching in the temple at the age of 12 or thereabouts.

Tiberius reigned until 37AD so, if the timing of Christ's death is correct, Christ was dead when Caligula took over. Caligula was immediately before Claudius.

edit on 6/23/2012 by aaaiii because: (no reason given)

So, he was most probably crucified under Tiberius for sedition, if he even existed that is.

Aren`t Christ and the Bible telling us the obvious that was probably known at the time

love mum and dad
don`t steal from others
don`t compare
have a rest at weekends
don`t kill anyone
don`t lie
don`t cheat on the wife
respect the power in your life - the boss, the wife, the government, god, something bigger than you and don`t take the p**s out of it.

The commandments will happen to you anyway if you live in society.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
I was raised to believe, but I would like to add a few questions to this.

1 Is there public record of infanticide by King Harod the Great? This would prove a time frame of Christs birth. Recently there was a thread about earthquakes/eclipse back then and they have been able to pin point a approximation of Jesus death. These two events would support a time frame of Jesus birth and death.

No, and that Flavius Josephus guy would have loved to report on it. Not that Harod was not ruthless, but the infanticide probably never happened.

2 What record exists of the Three Kings, Three Magi, Three Wise Men. Do any writing from these men exist and who were they?

None, that I know of. It is assumed they were Chaldean astrologers from Babylon, I think.

3 They placed on his head a crown of thorns. There is no record of them crucifying the king of the Jews?

Apparently not! Either the Romans did not keep such records or they did not survive. Although, some of the historians of the times would have certainly mentioned it.

4 Most credit Josephus with the first writings of Jesus some 40 years after his death. Did he write about the man Christ or the title of Christ?

That is probably a late Christian interpolation there. Probably forged after Christianity was tolerated as one of the many religions of the Roman Empire or once it became sole state religion.

5 Jesus had many followers, is it possible some of these people did write about his life. but after his death these writings were hidden and are yet to be revealed?

It is assumed that there existed a Q document (source document) which helped write the synoptic gospels.

6 What writing exist of the star in the east, or a supernova? There has to be astronomical data from back then. This would also show the time of birth.

None that I know of outside the gospels. If there was such date, it may have been lost. Then again maybe it was just a myth.