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Who says you can't get here from there?

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posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 12:30 AM
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Now, I'm not exactly "married up" to the extraterrestrial hypothesis necessarily, but I do consider it a totally valid - if not likely - explanation for a subset of the unexplained UFO reports that I've come across in my few years of looking into this stuff. I'm open to lots of other ideas. Interdimensional? Sure, why not. Entirely of human making? Possibly. Seems really unlikely to me, but probably wouldn't be any weirder than "interdimensional". But why not just plain old ET?

We know there are other planets out there. Extra dimensions are pretty much theoretical at this point, right? Furthermore, there seems to be a consensus these days among anyone whose opinion is worth anything that there could be life on these other planets...intelligent life even. We have no idea how common or rare the occurrence of intelligent life is once life itself takes hold somewhere. We have a sample size of exactly one and a whole lot of speculation. There is absolutely no reason to think that there are not intelligent species out there that are a million years ahead of us technologically. Do you feel confident speculating about what kind of technology Homo sapiens might be utilizing in the year 1,002,012 (if we make it that far) or what our understanding of nature might be?

This is why I bristle a bit when people try to tell me about the speed of light, as though I had never thought of that before. It's too far, they say. You can't "get here from there". It would take too damn long. Nobody's going to sit in a friggin' spaceship for 40,000 years to come to this planet.

Well I declare these people to be suffering from a lack of imagination.

And so does Bernard Haisch:


I agree completely that if the only way to get from star system A to star system B is to travel at sublight speed, this rules out frequent visitation. You might expect a visit once every ten thousand years (to cite a number I believe Carl Sagan once pulled out of his hat) even if the galaxy is teeming with civilizations. The questions is, are there conceivable alternatives to slogging through space? Maybe.


What? Who's Bernard Haisch??


President Digital Universe Foundation (2004-present)

Chief Science Officer ManyOne Networks, Inc. (2002-2009)

Director California Institute for Physics and Astrophysics, Palo Alto (1999-2002)

Staff Scientist Lockheed Martin, Solar and Astrophysics Laboratory, Palo Alto (1979-1999)

Scientific Editor The Astrophysical Journal (1993-2002)

Deputy Director Center for EUV Astrophysics, Univ. Calif., Berkeley (1992-1994)

Visiting Fellow Max-Planck-Institut fuer Extraterr. Physik, Garching, Germany (1991-1994)

Editor-in-Chief Journal of Scientific Exploration (1988-1999)

Visiting Scientist The Astronomical Institute, Rijksuniversiteit Utrecht, the Netherlands (1977-1978)

Research Associate Joint Inst. Lab. Astrophysics, Univ. Colorado, Boulder (1975-1977, 1978-1979)

Ph.D. University of Wisconsin, Madison, Astronomy (1975)

B.S. with High Distinction Indiana University, Bloomington, Astrophysics (1971)


He's just a scientist. He also has a website called ufoskeptic where, among other awesomely-written and intelligent articles and essays, you can read one entitled Extraterrestrial Visitation: The Speed-of-Light-Limit Argument. It's the first one on the top of the page. In addition there are analyses of a number of well-known unknowns and some cogent words on the Condon Report.

I highly recommend reading Haisch's stuff. Educate yourself.


edit on 23-6-2012 by Orkojoker because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 12:52 AM
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sub-light speeds don't rule-out anything.....especially if they are within our own solar system........and even more-so if they have been on our own planet,,,,long before we were here..........interesting post...............as in other related threads......keep an open mind, and don't let the skeptics throw reality off-course



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:09 AM
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reply to post by Orkojoker
 


Something has been hidden for eons.I know from obe,s that time travel is available and has been harnessed for centuries.All this gunk were living off is depleting the means from our brain for natural survival



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:14 AM
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Originally posted by SarnholeOntarable
reply to post by Orkojoker
 


Something has been hidden for eons.I know from obe,s that time travel is available and has been harnessed for centuries.All this gunk were living off is depleting the means from our brain for natural survival

What is an OBE? Never heard of that.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:16 AM
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reply to post by Orkojoker
 
ETH is a good enough idea to explore, but I'm less interested in *where* and more interested in *what* and *why* and *how.*

People have seen unusual objects in the skies, radars have picked them up and there's a history of physical effects on people. That all suggests that something of interest occasionally occurs in our world and I reluctantly accept that.

From that perspective, the *where* is further down my list and the *space is very big* argument becomes a red herring.

The ETH has served a purpose and a lot of people don't appreciate how it came about from reasonable speculation. Starting with the 1947 wave of sightings (pdf), descriptions of structured craft that weren't apparently ours would naturally lead to speculation that they weren't from Earth.

65 years later and the ETH isn't as reasonable as it used to be - it's as based in ignorance (as in unknown) as the *space is too big* argument. I entertain the idea of a very sophisticated ETH (amongst others), but until someone can demonstrate that what gets reported is what they actually saw...we just don't know.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:21 AM
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which leads me to ask the question....once again....was the TV series Project Bluebook just another way to decieve the public, or was it another form of indoctrination??



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:26 AM
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I think the human race is merely around the corner from our next technology innovation, and I think its going to be either energy or processing power. Either or with the possibility of the Higgs Bison being discovered by CERN, that could open up the door for Dark matter research which is going to put up forward by thousands of years.

Dark matter research could open up FTL ( faster than light travel ), Zero point energy, Warp bubbles / time travel the works. Dark matter is basically the Rosetta stone of physics.

These things are only decades away, pending humanity lasts that long.
edit on 23-6-2012 by Moneyisgodlifeisrented because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:26 AM
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I am not a believer in extraterrestrials being behind the UFO/abduction phenomenon, but the notion that such a thing is impossible due to distance has always seemed primitive to me.

We are assuming that our knowledge of science and physics is adequate enough to limit what a civilization possibly hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of years in advance of our own could and couldn't do, as if our limited understanding of the nature of the universe would some how trump theirs.

It's always seemed ridiculous to me, and even within the framework of our current laws I can still think of ways they could get here and back very quickly without "technically" breaking the speed of light.It seems an exercise in arrogance to presume we'd even be capable of knowing or limiting to begin with.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:30 AM
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Originally posted by DisUglyBoyHere

Originally posted by SarnholeOntarable
reply to post by Orkojoker
 


Something has been hidden for eons.I know from obe,s that time travel is available and has been harnessed for centuries.All this gunk were living off is depleting the means from our brain for natural survival

What is an OBE? Never heard of that.


Out of Body experience. Look into it here on ATS, it's fascinating as I've had them myself!



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:30 AM
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most, if not all of the UFO's I believe would be robotic in nature, drones, probes etc...

nothing organic is travelling that far due to logistics, but if you replace most of the organic components with inorganic like replacing bones with steel etc.. removing the necessity for food and water etc...

at that point we would need to be transhuman/digital.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:35 AM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 


Thanks for your reply, Kandinsky. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that all "genuine" UFO reports are ET activity, but if none of them were I would be kind of surprised. There seems to be a lot going on with the various apparitions that we lump under the heading of "UFO". Why assume a single explanation? There are lots that are apparently theoretically possible.

Here's the abstract to an awesome read on the subject:


It has recently been argued that anthropic reasoning applied to inflation theory reinforces the prediction that we should find ourselves part of a large, galaxy-sized civilisation, thus strengthening Fermi’s paradox concerning “Where are they?” Furthermore, superstring and M-brane theory allow for the possibility of parallel universes, some of which in principle could be habitable. In addition, discussion of such exotic transport concepts as “traversable wormholes” now appears in the rigorous physics literature. As a result, the “We are alone” solution to Fermi’s paradox, based on the constraints of earlier 20 th century viewpoints, appears today to be inconsistent with new developments in our best current physics and astrophysics theories. Therefore we reexamine and reevaluate the present assumption that extraterrestrials or their probes are not in the vicinity of Earth, and argue instead that some evidence of their presence might be found in certain high-quality UFO reports. This study follows up on previous arguments that (1) interstellar travel for advanced civilizations is not a priori ruled out by physical principles and therefore may be practicable, and (2) such advanced civilisations may value the search for knowledge from uncontaminated species more than direct, interspecies communication, thereby accounting for apparent covertness regarding their presence.


I advise digging the whole paper. Well worth the time.

Inflation-Theory Implications for Extraterrestrial Visitation



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:38 AM
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reply to post by Orkojoker
 


Thanks for the ufoskeptic link. I plan to do some reading there.

You bring up a point I've often considered: Namely that our hidebound "scientists" don't seem to realize that in a few thousand years we're certain to have a better understanding about how things work in this universe than we do now. And that it thus stands to reason that any race a few thousand years ahead of us will surely have made those discoveries.

After the 2001 Chilbolton crop circles, I saw a video that featured a well-known "scientist" debunking the alien hypothesis. Lecturing us like backward children, he reminded us of the vast distances involved. An engine that would drive a ship at even a major fraction of the speed of light, he pointed out, would itself have to be "the size of the Queen Mary."

I remember thinking: Even if it were true that our visitors were driving slower-than-light ships across those distances (a stupid enough assumption)--what the hell difference would it make what size the engine would be? Even if they had to make it as big as a planet--as big as a sun--so the hell what? If they wanted to do it, why would an engine the size of a large ship be a stumbling-block? But, of course, such speculation just plays right into their dimwitted game....



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by moonweed
sub-light speeds don't rule-out anything.....especially if they are within our own solar system........and even more-so if they have been on our own planet,,,,long before we were here..........interesting post...............as in other related threads......keep an open mind, and don't let the skeptics throw reality off-course


So they originated within our solar system? So there are men from Mars afterall? If not which planet do they call home?



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 02:10 AM
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reply to post by Orkojoker
 


Well, this is where the ET theory gets a bit sticky ... What is their purpose for being here? Basically any purpose you assign their visiting is illogical. So yes, logically they could exist, logically they could get here, but it is completely illogical that they have. List any purpose, I will show you how that purpose makes zero sense.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 02:16 AM
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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by moonweed
sub-light speeds don't rule-out anything.....especially if they are within our own solar system........and even more-so if they have been on our own planet,,,,long before we were here..........interesting post...............as in other related threads......keep an open mind, and don't let the skeptics throw reality off-course


So they originated within our solar system? So there are men from Mars afterall? If not which planet do they call home?


if anything at all, lol...it would be an outpost of some kind.
on the outer edge of our solar system for whatever reason just for passing by onwards to more prestigious destinations.

let's make it clear to that guy. there are no other planets in our solar system capable of sustaining a lifeform.

it's just not happening. the ever so slightest of all chances of microbials on on of the gas giant moons though.
they aren't travelling.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 02:27 AM
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reply to post by Orkojoker
 


There seems to be a lot going on with the various apparitions that we lump under the heading of "UFO". Why assume a single explanation? There are lots that are apparently theoretically possible.


This is where I'm held up and waiting for new information. There are many possibilities and I share the doubt that we're looking at one explanation and/or origin for the UFO enigma.

Whatever is going on, we could do with advances in our understanding of perception and consciousness.

I think the Inflation Theory paper is interesting although I disagree with some of their thinking. For example, their conclusions that...

Such a standard of behavior is consistent with reality of the UFO phenomenon and the fact that not in the past 56 years, nor in past millennia, have we been colonised, conquered or exterminated, nor has society been traumatised by any ETs or by their sometimes postulated robotic probes


Well, who could say that with certainty? If part of the UFO enigma involves an advanced intelligence, it's conceivable that domination or control could be exerted without overt hostility. The exploration of motivations is something that comes naturally to people interested in this subject. At the same time, using certainty should be avoided when nobody knows anything for sure. They surmise that 'ET' are at a 'neutrally benevolent ethical level overall' and maybe that's right? Or maybe it's not.

The long history of UFO reports near military bases (Edwards AFB 1965, for example) and aircraft would suggest at least a passing interest in our defence capabilities. As an analogy, US foreign policy doesn't have a 'neutrally benevolent ethical level' when it comes to South and Central America, but they aren't 'colonising, conquering or exterminating' them either.

You might like some of Mike Swords' ideas in this article - What does a half-century of intense UFO display mean? As usual, I don't agree with everything, but enough to find it a very interesting collection of thoughts on the possibilities if UFOs are indeed exotic craft.

edit on 23-6-2012 by Kandinsky because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 02:40 AM
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reply to post by yourmaker
 


Assuming it was an outpost, that would mean they would have had to travel here to create it, meaning it did not originate in this solar system.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 03:44 AM
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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by Orkojoker
 


Well, this is where the ET theory gets a bit sticky ... What is their purpose for being here? Basically any purpose you assign their visiting is illogical. So yes, logically they could exist, logically they could get here, but it is completely illogical that they have. List any purpose, I will show you how that purpose makes zero sense.


I think it makes perfect logical sense. Do you know any scientists personally? Some people just innately and intensely need to understand as much about this world as they possibly can. This is why we have entomologists that follow certain beatle species all around the globe. Why wouldn't intelligences from elsewhere share a similar curiosity, and be exploring their 'world' (their few hundred closest star systems, say) the way we explore every region of our home planet? Would curiosity not be a trait of most intelligent beings, perhaps even acting as the driver of intellectual evolution? Who knows. Sounds somewhat reasonable though.

So how does 'the innate curiosity of some intelligent beings' make "zero sense" as an explanation for possible ET visitation? That'd be a tough argument to make....



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 03:59 AM
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reply to post by TeaAndStrumpets
 


Because there are two possibilities. One is that they wish to remain anonymous, one is that they don't. With the technology required to reach here (staggeringly far beyond what we could imagine) they would be able to remain anonymous with ease. So the only alternative is they do not wish to remain anonymous, in which case we would see them much more commonly, and it would not be a debate that they exist or not. Instead what we have is them appearing to remain anonymous, but unable to do so. This is completely illogical as if they wished to be anonymous we would never have the faintest of ideas they existed.

If the Govt. wished to study you, you would never know. An alien species far more advanced than our wildest dreams can't do the same?
edit on 23-6-2012 by OccamsRazor04 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 06:29 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 



Because there are two possibilities. One is that they wish to remain anonymous, one is that they don't.


Why limit yourself to these either/or solutions? Other possibilities include lights for display, illumination and propulsion.

In terms of display (flashing, multi-coloured effects), this would suggest the lights as a medium and, by extension, one could suspect a message. A message requires a recipient, but who that might be is, once more, open to speculative possibilities. Anonymity would therefore be selective and partial.

Reported sightings near or over AFBs are similarly rich in interpretation. For example, what effect might a displayed (flashing or static light) presence have on a military mind? It could be interpreted as militarily intimidating. So perhaps the lights have an ulterior psychological advantage.

Outcomes of propulsion are another possibility. A NASA scientist called Paul R Hill is probably the main guy for this angle. In his book, he related the perceived colours of UFOs to the photon energy they were emitting in ionising radiation. He noted that red and orange are commonly reported colours and suggested that these represented low-power states for UFOs. Jacques Vallee also wrote about power outputs in this rather dull paper.

Another researcher, Professor Michael Swords, wrote about a number of UFO reports that seemed to indicate that they were specifically aimed at the observers. In essence, they required a privileged view which would conform to the partial anonymity idea and also the idea of transferring a message. If there was a message, it was inevitably lost on the witnesses, but the details may have been understood elsewhere.




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