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Now That I Think Of it, Why Does God Need Jesus If He is Omnipotent?

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posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by EvilSadamClone
 


You're thinking in human terms, raise the bar alot. He is omnipotent, anything is possible with him...BUT...
...he is not an oathbreaker, his Word is his bond. When he makes a covenant he keeps up his end of the bargain regardless of who fails it because he cannot break his covenant and he will not compromise his righteousness one iota no matter what the cost is to him.




posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Socrates understood God's predicament . . .

Suiting that you quote a philosopher to back up your philosophy, rather than the Bible, since it does not back it up.
You are describing a Catholic doctrine devised by Augustine.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Socrates understood God's predicament . . .

Suiting that you quote a philosopher to back up your philosophy, rather than the Bible, since it does not back it up.
You are describing a Catholic doctrine devised by Augustine.


Paul quoted 3 pagan poets on Mars Hill when talking to pagans. You would have no doubt been challenging him as well. Lol

"Hey Paul.... fitting you quoting 3 pagan poets, you must be a pagan since you aint quotin the Scriptures!"


My point was, even Socrates understood the dillema God was in with forgiving sin without penalty. So for someone to claim it's illogical is quite arrogant considering Socrates found the dillema challenging.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 11:55 PM
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reply to post by EvilSadamClone
 


i think christ was needed, because God is infinite and needed to present himself through a medium perceptible to everyone else.

2nd line



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 07:37 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

So for someone to claim it's illogical is quite arrogant . . .

I said nothing about logic, so to use your favorite phrase, 'That is a straw-man'.
Acts is historical-fiction, where the writer is making up a scenario and his technique, as a natural plagiarist, is to take known philosophical oratory, and place them in the mouth of his 'Paul' character.
The real Paul says:

. . . that the gospel I preached is not of human origin.
Galatians 1:11

For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom . . .
1 Corinthians 1:25

And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom, but with those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
1 Corinthians 2:13
edit on 23-6-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 08:08 AM
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reply to post by mr10k
 

. . . Jesus was put there so he would be the 'sponge' of everyone's sins, and when he died, everyone's sin being in Jesus, and Jesus being punished, God was able to free man from sin.

If you are using the Isaiah 53 "Suffering Servant" model which apparently Paul was, then we are saved because though Jesus was 'counted among sinners', he was lifted up by being raised from death and glorified.
Jesus makes it possible for us as sinners, to be lifted up with Jesus, and God can be called, 'He Who Justifies the Unrighteous'



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by mr10k
 

. . . Jesus was put there so he would be the 'sponge' of everyone's sins, and when he died, everyone's sin being in Jesus, and Jesus being punished, God was able to free man from sin.

If you are using the Isaiah 53 "Suffering Servant" model which apparently Paul was, then we are saved because though Jesus was 'counted among sinners', he was lifted up by being raised from death and glorified.
Jesus makes it possible for us as sinners, to be lifted up with Jesus, and God can be called, 'He Who Justifies the Unrighteous'


Wait what? The OP asked why God needed Jesus. From what I've read, God needed Jesus because he couldn't just abolish everyone's sin, because sin could not go without punishment. Thus, he used Jesus as a 'sponge', to be the punishment of everyone's sins, Thus allowing God to abolish everyone's sins. It's a really stupid story, but I'm just answering the question the OP asked.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by mr10k
 

From what I've read, God needed Jesus because he couldn't just abolish everyone's sin, because sin could not go without punishment.
You did not read that in the Bible.
That comes from Medieval Catholic philosophy, which a lot of Protestants believe in without realizing that it is only one of several possible salvation theories.
edit on 23-6-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by mr10k
 





God needed Jesus because he couldn't just abolish everyone's sin, because sin could not go without punishment. Thus, he used Jesus as a 'sponge', to be the punishment of everyone's sins, Thus allowing God to abolish everyone's sins. It's a really stupid story, but I'm just answering the question the OP asked.



Yep, that's just about the way the mythology goes. It is silly isn't it? Especially since Jesus never claimed that he came here to die for the sins of the world. Not to mention that according to the story, Jesus went and prayed to his god to "Take this cup away from me."

Clearly, if he knew he born to die for the sins of the world, he wouldn't have asked to "not die." Additionally, if Jesus was to be a human blood sacrifice to an angry god for the sins of the world, wouldn't he have been killed in a more cermonious way then an angry mob screaming for death? Geez, even sacrificial animals are killed humanely

What is really absurd is the way the myth twists the story of the survival of Jesus, from the crucifixion event, and makes it seem like Jesus rose from the dead! Then they go on to say that while he was "dead" he went to hell and did some preaching or whatever. This is another thing the Jesus never claimed.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 03:31 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

. . . if Jesus was to be a human blood sacrifice to an angry god for the sins of the world . . .

Jesus gives a parable in Luke 20 of the evil tenants, where they say to each other,

‘This is the heir; let’s kill him so the inheritance will be ours!’

Later, when he is being arrested, he said,

But this is your hour, and that of the power of darkness!”

According to Paul, Jesus was "given over" to the enemy. In the parable, Jesus asks what should be done with the evil tenants after they killed the landlord's son. The answer was,

He will come and destroy those tenants and give the vineyard to others.”

The enemy turned out to be the religious institution that was supposed to be representing God to the people but were not, really, and were more concerned with self-interest. Jesus was sacrificed to prove the evil nature of that religious institution in order to have it removed to be replaced by a more just administration.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


In this parable, does the son of the vineyard owner die to save his murders from judgment? No.

Would a smart and discerning person know that there are people who would like to see him dead? Yes.

Did Jesus believe that he was born for the sole purpose of dieing, and that his death would be a blood sacrifice for the sins of those who would kill him? I don't think so.

I think that Jesus was driven to teach as much as possible before his demise. I also think that he was so hated because he didn't teach of the same god as the church leaders.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 04:25 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

Did Jesus believe that he was born for the sole purpose of dieing, and that his death would be a blood sacrifice for the sins of those who would kill him? I don't think so.
The "evil tenants" were the caretakers. That is not us. We are the ones who are being cared for.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Yes, but when Jesus was on the cross he said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." So, presumably, the murders are also saved through the death of whom they have murdered, if we are to believe the dogma.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by EvilSadamClone
 


Omnipotence means having unlimited power. God didn't turn into Jesus, and he didn't need Jesus to die on the cross. He guides whomever he pleases and he always forgives those in true repentance. Again he did not NEED Jesus.

We are to worship God and God alone. Jesus was the Messiah, the son of Mary, sent as a messenger to the Jews, to give them guidance and wisdom, but instead they thought Jesus was sinning Blasphemy, which is the ultimate sin. God would never say Blasphemy is a sin but then turn around and send himself down as a human and say he is God, which is Blasphemy against God (himself), that just doesn't make sense. Jesus was a messenger for the Jews, then was ascended up to be brought back on the Day of Judgement. He never died on the cross, because dying on the cross back then meant you were forever cursed. To allow His messenger to be considered forever cursed among the people is counterproductive.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by mr10k
 

From what I've read, God needed Jesus because he couldn't just abolish everyone's sin, because sin could not go without punishment.
You did not read that in the Bible.
That comes from Medieval Catholic philosophy, which a lot of Protestants believe in without realizing that it is only one of several possible salvation theories.
edit on 23-6-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)


Lol? That comes directly from the bible:

1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


That's in your Bible. Not some extension conjured up by a group of people (although it really is). There are even more passages in there that show Jesus was intended to become a sacrifice for God to cleanse humanity of sin.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by Rocsgirl
reply to post by EvilSadamClone
 


Omnipotence means having unlimited power. God didn't turn into Jesus, and he didn't need Jesus to die on the cross. He guides whomever he pleases and he always forgives those in true repentance. Again he did not NEED Jesus.

We are to worship God and God alone. Jesus was the Messiah, the son of Mary, sent as a messenger to the Jews, to give them guidance and wisdom, but instead they thought Jesus was sinning Blasphemy, which is the ultimate sin. God would never say Blasphemy is a sin but then turn around and send himself down as a human and say he is God, which is Blasphemy against God (himself), that just doesn't make sense. Jesus was a messenger for the Jews, then was ascended up to be brought back on the Day of Judgement. He never died on the cross, because dying on the cross back then meant you were forever cursed. To allow His messenger to be considered forever cursed among the people is counterproductive.


This God character sounds like a really pretentious douchebag



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

Yes, but when Jesus was on the cross he said "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." So, presumably, the murders are also saved through the death of whom they have murdered, if we are to believe the dogma.
Herod, Pilate, and Caiaphas did know what they were doing, so Jesus was not talking about them.
He may have meant his executioners.
"Salvation" in those times usually meant national salvation by a king or emperor overthrowing the earlier government.
There is a quote by the Baptist calling Jesus the lamb who takes away the sins of the world. Taking away the sins of the people would be by right leadership to guide the people into proper behavior. Jesus did so by installing a spiritual government by a victory, not by force of arms, but "as a lamb".

edit on 23-6-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 05:00 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


How did Herod, Pilate, and Caiaphas "know" what they were doing? Were they informed as to the spiritual status of Jesus by Satan? How are these people above, as far as knowledge, the pharisees and sadducees, who were confounded? How are these real people not included in Jesus' prayer of forgive "them"?


edit on 23-6-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by mr10k
 


Propitiation is a gift given to build friendship between the giver, and the one who receives it.
The term was associated with sacrifice where people have no other way to give gifts to gods.
That definition for propitiation does not fit in this case because the context of the verse is God giving us the gift.



posted on Jun, 23 2012 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

How did Herod, Pilate, and Caiaphas "know" what they were doing? Were they informed as to the spiritual status of Jesus by Satan? How are these people above, as far as knowledge, the pharisees and sadducees, who were confounded? How are these real people not included in Jesus' prayer of forgive "them"?

They knew because Jesus told them.
There seems to be sufficient scriptural evidence that they understood that he claimed to be god.
The fact that they plotted to have him killed shows their true nature and they serve as types to condemn the system they represent.




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