Syria Shoots Down Turkish Jet, Turkish Navy Massing, Article 4 NATO Treaty Invoked...

Originally posted by votan
So are we at war yet??? its been almost a day since this thread started and it seemed like all helll was going to break loose by some folks on here.

edit on 23-6-2012 by votan because: (no reason given)

You do know that ' we ' have been at war for over a decade now.....

Ive been following this thread since yesterday morning, EvanB. Props to you for getting it up at nearly the same time the event started unfolding.

Do i think this will spark a NATO retaliation? Yes. IMO, thats an inevitability. Nuclear war? God, i hope not. But with the current chess board of military posturing in the ME, i believe it is a possibility, but a small one.

After reading the articles from today, it sounds to me like the Turks are not going to let this fade away, but instead use it as the reason NATO takes out Syria and hands it over to the rebels... After the states and the UN set up a puppet government that is.

Originally posted by W3RLIED2

Originally posted by votan
So are we at war yet??? its been almost a day since this thread started and it seemed like all helll was going to break loose by some folks on here.

edit on 23-6-2012 by votan because: (no reason given)

You do know that ' we ' have been at war for over a decade now.....

Ive been following this thread since yesterday morning, EvanB. Props to you for getting it up at nearly the same time the event started unfolding.

Do i think this will spark a NATO retaliation? Yes. IMO, thats an inevitability. Nuclear war? God, i hope not. But with the current chess board of military posturing in the ME, i believe it is a possibility, but a small one.

After reading the articles from today, it sounds to me like the Turks are not going to let this fade away, but instead use it as the reason NATO takes out Syria and hands it over to the rebels... After the states and the UN set up a puppet government that is.

No we are not they are "MILITARY" actions


this article says otherwise about the turks

www.bbc.co.uk...

reply to post by votan


I know the relationship between the turks and Syria are strained already, to say the absolute least of the situation.

My opinions also stem from recent military movements however. The US is now building up their bases in Kuwait, to keep pressure on Iran, not to mention the hundred or so military bases and outposts in Iraq.

The russians are building up also. Along with excersizes and troop movements the word, or lack of word, from the Rodina is that they have Assads back.

For lack of better terms, Syria is a flashpoint... Maybe the flashpoint for all out global conflict.

reply to post by intrptr

No, not the F-4. More like the F-16.
Not many F-4's still flying. It's a larger airplane than the one pictured too.

reply to post by votan


Lets hope your smug laughter continues..

Indications are that Russia and China are moving navy vessels to the area..

Perhaps you will find that funny too hey?

reply to post by EvanB


Yeah, not really that funny.

Putin is literally enlisting the chinese and the Iranians for help in the ME. Wich they are happily complying with. And the word is accurate. RU warships along with chinese support are making a move to the region.

Nothing ever happens overnight. Give it a month or less. Things are not looking good from the realistic stand point. Not doom and gloom, seriously! Just not a good situation to be spectating.

reply to post by EvanB

The fact that Turkey is now in crisis meetings with NATO too under article 4

Is it? Do you have a link for that information. The last i saw about that it related to April.

reply to post by votan


Thank you for presenting that point of view.

There are many very good reasons why this incident will not progress to military action, and none of them are military.

I'm amazed at the amount of hate leveled at the west in this thread. You know the same west who's responsible for things like womand liberation, the free and open internet, electricity in every home, and countless other things. While I recognize that the West has not always been the best and has actively hurt people and destroyed nations, it is still a comparatively tame and gentle empire compared to any other empire in history.

Now onto this whole Turkey Syria thing.... like alot of others I think this is probably the spark that is going to ignite something truly ugly. While whatever happens won't happen over night, the ball is now rolling and it's only a matter of time until we see more ugliness.

Let's all hope and pray that this F-4 won't be this generation's archduke Ferdinand. The world is in enough trouble already without us starting a massive war.

reply to post by PuterMan

The Turkish PM met with NATO officials yesterday alongside crisis meetings. They alsohave been discussing invoking article 4 for months in article 4 settings with NATO. This is due to their proximity to Syria. On top of that the Turkish deputy PM was quoted yesterday as saying "Turkey will not respond, NATO will". The links are a few pages back.

reply to post by EvanB


I am aware that they have been talking about that for some time but this I do not believe is the incident that is going to set everything off.

Oh by the way a link here would be good rather than having to go find them.

Originally posted by TWISTEDWORDS
Russia just responded and is sending 3 warships and they are on their way...breaking news....All over the internet now. China will respond as well.

Three ships are hardly a match for any NATO nation in that area. If they act like they will be hostile in any way they will be blocked from entering the area. Turkey can seal off the Black sea fleet, Egypt will block the Suez stopping Iran and China from doing anything.

If they think they want to move to Syria now then i am sure NATO will block them somehow just to avoid a direct shooting match with them yet.

Just to add these are the same three Russian ships that were to meet Iranian and Chinese ships for a so called exercise. Having these ships around NATO armadas or just a few U.S. Carrier battle groups is just plain ignorant because they don't stand a chance at winning.

reply to post by PuterMan


Are you thinking about when The Turks almost invoked Article 5 some time ago? Article 5 states that an attack on one NATO nation is an attack on them all, however, in this case since the Turks were in Syrian air space, things start getting into a cloudy greyish area of the NATO rules..... Never let a good crisis go to waste, though.

Initially NATO Article 5 was discussed because the syrian army killed two syrians that were inside the border of Turky.

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge

If they think they want to move to Syria now then i am sure NATO will block them somehow just to avoid a direct shooting match with them yet.

If NATO was as stupid as to do that in International waters they would be incredibly stupid, but fortunately i don't think they are quite as daft as the armchair warriors on this thread who seem to think this is some sort of console game. It is not.

reply to post by W3RLIED2


It isn't just an ordinary ship-ship drill. The Russians have deployed Destroyers, Submarines and their aircraft carrier. China has deployed 12 Ships which Egypt has reported to have allowed through the Suez Canal.

It looks like the pieces are being moved into position on the board. Start the timer.

reply to post by W3RLIED2


Yes I was and I agree with you. To invoke that now could be difficult, and wrong if the aircraft did indeed stray into Syrian airspace.

Can you imagine the US reaction if that happened in their airspace?

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge


They may not be trying to win. Their presence is there as a statement to NATO. Should a hot battle take place between naval groups that would be all it takes to get WW3 rolling hard and fast.

Flashpoint.

Originally posted by PuterMan
reply to post by W3RLIED2

 

Yes I was and I agree with you. To invoke that now could be difficult, and wrong if the aircraft did indeed stray into Syrian airspace.

Can you imagine the US reaction if that happened in their airspace?

We would already be bombing some one, Puter. If this had happened over an American territory it would be HOT in less than a day.

Nothing is going to happen because it already would have by now. Things are simmering down. Everyone calm down.

Nothing is going to happen:

ISTANBUL—Turkey on Saturday vowed to take "necessary steps" to respond to the downing of a Turkish military jet by Syria on Friday, but signals from Ankara and Damascus suggested neither wanted a military confrontation over the incident

online.wsj.com...