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The ATS Regent Debate Thread pt.1

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posted on Jun, 21 2012 @ 09:12 PM
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This is worse than asking a girl to dance at a formal event. C'mon people.

The people that are running for Regent have answered their questions. Isn't anyone going to refute any points? This particular debate is about member qualifications, and some members have given light hearted answers. Out of respect for the OP, I'll start by bringing up two points that I think need addressed:

Nenothtu says this:



Not necessary but useful. "Worldview" determines many associations in the real world and the virtual world, and that makes knowing where people stand a useful thing. If, however, any of us think we are going to change the world with our views, we are mistaken. We may be able to steer it slightly off course, but no so much that anyone would notice.


I beg to disagree on this aspect of your response. You use the word "we". You say "we" are mistaken. I'll posit that you are really referring to the singular, the "I". I myself cannot make any meaningful changes as an individual, but "we" can be meant to clarify the whole world working in unison. Is such a concept foreign? Is unity so far gone that examples of demonstrations are lost, such as the OWS movement? Does history show that the "we" were never successful? How about the revolutionary war? That was a bunch of "we"s. The "we"s left England for the new world, collectively thinking that each "I" could make a difference.

gimme_some_truth's position is this:




Now to the question, I do believe that a world-view discussion is important because the ATS community is made up of people from all around the world, all different backgrounds, religions and political beliefs. I have said from the beginning that I welcome all opinions, viewpoints and stances as we work together to create a better community. If we leave out any of them, then we will not have a truly happy ATS and some people will be left feeling angry and divided.


I'll have to say that you are being way too generalized. How about some specifics? How about explaining how we "create" a better community? The community on ATS is established. How you propose we change the mindset of such behaviors such as "trolling". Are the mods continually forced to remove posts, or is there a solution to help people understand the standards that ATS represents?

Continue.




posted on Jun, 21 2012 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by Druid42

Nenothtu says this:



Not necessary but useful. "Worldview" determines many associations in the real world and the virtual world, and that makes knowing where people stand a useful thing. If, however, any of us think we are going to change the world with our views, we are mistaken. We may be able to steer it slightly off course, but no so much that anyone would notice.


I beg to disagree on this aspect of your response. You use the word "we". You say "we" are mistaken. I'll posit that you are really referring to the singular, the "I". I myself cannot make any meaningful changes as an individual, but "we" can be meant to clarify the whole world working in unison. Is such a concept foreign? Is unity so far gone that examples of demonstrations are lost, such as the OWS movement? Does history show that the "we" were never successful? How about the revolutionary war? That was a bunch of "we"s. The "we"s left England for the new world, collectively thinking that each "I" could make a difference.



Any collective "we" is made up entirely of Individual "I"'s, so it works the same either way. One individual CAN change the world, at least for centuries to come if not longer, but that individual is a rare one. Now, it may be that you are that One, or I am that One (not too likely, from where I stand), but the reality of it is that in all probability neither of us is. To be honest, I'm not even "sort of" interested in changing the world, only in having an effect on my part of it. It's not my place to change other people's parts of the world - that would be THEIR place, to mold their parts into what they want them to be.

Demonstrations are entirely useless, especially "leaderless" ones. With no leader, the herd has no real direction or focus. Since you brought up OWS, I'd say that it is a prime example. Exactly how has OWS "changed the world"? It could have been otherwise, but they chose instead to mill around with no focus, with no leadership.

The Revolutionary War was not a demonstration, it was a WAR. I'm hearing a lot of "let's all get along together" among the candidates for Regent, and the Revolutionary War doesn't really apply to that "lets all be friends no matter what" mindset. To be frank, I'm not entirely sure why you tossed it in there, but you are always free to clarify.

I'd like to have an example of the collective which left England with intent to collectively change the world. where is that collective now? the frontier was explored, the frontier was expanded and pushed outward by individuals, not collectives. The collectives came and settled on land that was first found and made safe by... The Individual, each one forging ahead and leaving his own little marks behind for the hordes to safely follow.

No collective can ever work in unison without a leadership to direct, coordinate, and motivate them, and that all starts with an "I". without leadership, a collective is no better than an amoeba.

It may well be that you and I have differing concepts of what the word "worldview" means to begin with. I take it to mean the way someone views the world, as a basis for interaction with what IS, not what one would like it to be. Thus it is helpful to understand the way others see the world in forming associations - people tend to gravitate to other people who see the world the same way. Seeing, however, is not changing in my mind. Change requires action, not just looking. Therefore, neither "we" nor "I" either one will change the world with only our views, which is what I said above.


It may be, then, that you see the meaning of the word to be different, and I invite you to expound further on your concept of what it means to you.



edit on 2012/6/21 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2012 @ 10:56 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


I knew there was an intelligent mind behind that cantankerous avatar.




Demonstrations are entirely useless, especially "leaderless" ones. With no leader, the herd has no real direction or focus.


You've apparently read the same history books as I.



Exactly how has OWS "changed the world"? It could have been otherwise, but they chose instead to mill around with no focus, with no leadership.


That was just one example. Such a failed attempt.



I'd like to have an example of the collective which left England with intent to collectively change the world.


They didn't intend to change the world, they were desperate, and fed up with their oppression. They left everything behind, and decided to start anew. I see this mentality in modern society, but there are no current means to explore a new frontier, other than space. The whole world is owned by one entity or another, and there is no more room left to expand into.



No collective can ever work in unison without a leadership to direct, coordinate, and motivate them, and that all starts with an "I". without leadership, a collective is no better than an amoeba.


By this, you are saying ATS can't function without a leader. It has functioned fine for years as such.
I'll retract that. ATS is a community, with rules, enforced strictly, by a series of mods. Can the mods (in a hypothetical scenario) serve the same function as a leader?



It may well be that you and I have differing concepts of what the word "worldview" means to begin with. I take it to mean the way someone views the world, as a basis for interaction with what IS, not what one would like it to be.


I'll expound by saying that your worldview is your idea of what the past, present, and future is. We have history to tell us what the world WAS like, and we experience the present, and have no clue what the future holds for us. We live our lives safely, knowing what comforts us, trying to avoid the unknown of the future. With the future being unknown, just as the first immigrants to the "New World" were faced with unknowns, we have a choice to either embrace the future or try to hide from the inevitable. A satisfying worldview incorporates all the possibilities. It's not just what IS, it is also what WAS, and what MAY BE. The only thing we have control over, to be honest, is what we as an "I" do.

I agree wholeheartedly with your concepts of "needing" a leader, whether it be a form of government, or an individual. Currently, there is no leader, there are only puppets fulfilling long forgotten honest roles.



posted on Jun, 21 2012 @ 11:24 PM
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Originally posted by Druid42


I'll have to say that you are being way too generalized. How about some specifics? How about explaining how we "create" a better community? The community on ATS is established. How you propose we change the mindset of such behaviors such as "trolling". Are the mods continually forced to remove posts, or is there a solution to help people understand the standards that ATS represents?

Continue.


Here is the thing, my friend. My answers are spread far and wide and not just contained to the one paragraph as you seem to think. I have a whole platform thread that even you have posted in and I have been very active in the main election thread as well.

The people are well aware of my stance on the issues. Perhaps you should brush up a bit more?

But, I will be glad to answer the questions you have aimed at me. You ask how we create a better community and I have said this time and again. To create a better community we must all work together, welcoming all view points, beliefs and opinions to figure out how to create a better community. There is no one set answer as I have said. It is about working together to CREATE a better ATS.

I have proposed creating established groups to help in certain areas. For example, if newer members or even veteran members are having trouble figuring out avatars, we would have a group of established "experts" who are willing to help with any questions you may have.

Post a thread in an easy to find place making it known who the experts are in what area. Then all you have to do is send them a U2U. Wah lah, we have a community working together more than ever, to better itself and make it a friendlier place for all.

And again, I have many connections through out ATS, members, staff, and owner alike and at the end of the day, all a member would have to do, is come to me for help and I would be more than capable of helping them.

But I do support creating special help groups for new members, that work with them, to teach them the ropes and the ins and outs of ATS.

As for trolls. Realistically, we can never get rid of trolls. Staff can action their posts all day long and a new one will join up at some point. The best way to handle a troll is to simply ignore them. Do not post in an obvious troll thread. Do not reply to an obvious troll post.

As a member, if you see a troll post or thread, it is our duty to simply report it to the staff and let them take care of it. Sure, I would love to make it so trolls no longer exist, but, this is reality.

We can create programs to teach newer members the ropes, using veteran members as the "teachers" and that may even help to reduce some trolling, if they learn what is expected of an ATS member, right up front.

But, yes, trolls will continue to show up. Hoaxers will hoax and the best thing you can do to a troll, is ignore them and alert the post.

My stances are clear, my friend. Realistic.I am out in the open. I make myself available to anyone at anytime.

If anyone has a problem, I have made it known that they can come to me and I WILL help them using the many connections I have gained here on ATS.

I can and will get things done, out in the open, using diplomacy. My stances are no secret. And it is no secret why I am the best choice for ATS Regent. I am the one who can truly get things done!
edit on 21-6-2012 by gimme_some_truth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2012 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by watchitburn



1. Do you think a world-view discussion is necessary for the Regent position? Why?

Absolutely, bringing about the end of all things is everyone's responsibility, and the only way we can work towards that goal is through open and honest discussion.


2. How would you differentiate yourself between the other candidates approaches to this position? What makes you unique?

Well, I have had sex in no less than 5 different countries on 3 continents. I think that makes me the only qualified Global Candidate.


3. How would ATS benefit from your leadership?

Three words, "Cannibal Zombie Squirrels".


While I firmly stand behind my responses from earlier I am going to expand upon my answers.

The first question alluded to a "World View".
I find this idea patently absurd. The sheer disparity on the globe makes this concept a fantasy.
Any nations "views" will be expressed by those holding power, while the majority's voices are snuffed out, oppressed, or twisted to fit the establishment. This has been the case throughout recorded history. Yes, there have been a few temporary bumps in the road for the privileged, but greed always wins out. This is why there never has been, nor ever will be a "World View" or a One World Govt. for that matter.
Now, with that being said. Do I think it is important to be able to put aside ones own reality structures so you can look at situations from an alternate perspective? Undoubtedly! In fact it is the only way to deny ignorance.

How am I differentiated from the other candidates?
I am many things, but above all I am practical, sometimes even to the point where it makes others uncomfortable. You will not catch me sugar coating or romanticizing reality either. I insist that no topic should be sacred(except those covered by the T&C) When you put something on a pedestal, those that question or try to look deeper tend to be persecuted. That is not the way to gain knowledge and understanding. Lastly I believe NOTHING, I think it is premature to believe we have all the facts on any topic. Beliefs are dangerous, they lead to torment, suffering and death. Ideas on the other hand, can evolve as more information is obtained. And that is what I offer to the citizens of ATS, The opportunity for endless ideas without persecution. (though stupid ideas should be pointed out as such, albeit in a civil manner)

Finally, how would ATS benefit from my leadership?
Zombie Cannibal Squirrels aside.
I don't think ATS needs nor should it have leadership forced upon it. Every member is free to be their own leader, and they should remain that way. Anyone who seeks a leader is putting shackles on themselves, that is how slaves are made. I could be a guide for anyone who asks, but as was already pointed out. There is no shortage of members willing to guide those that seek it. It seems to me, that the regent should act as a voice for the masses so as not to overwhelm the Mods and Administrators when there are questions.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by Druid42

I knew there was an intelligent mind behind that cantankerous avatar.


I thank you for the compliment, but I don't see it myself. Feels to me like I'm just faking it pretty good. I open my mouth, or in this case twitch my fingers, and "stuff" falls out. What sense people can make of it is theirs.




They didn't intend to change the world, they were desperate, and fed up with their oppression. They left everything behind, and decided to start anew. I see this mentality in modern society, but there are no current means to explore a new frontier, other than space. The whole world is owned by one entity or another, and there is no more room left to expand into.


That, to me, is the entirety of history in a nutshell. From what I can tell, most people who :"make history" never intend to - it's just the luck of the draw, being in the right place at the right time, and rising to the occasion. Then it gets recorded as "history" They were just people, same as you or I, who happened into the right combination and made it work. They key is to be someone who "makes it work", and to let history take care of itself.




By this, you are saying ATS can't function without a leader. It has functioned fine for years as such.
I'll retract that. ATS is a community, with rules, enforced strictly, by a series of mods. Can the mods (in a hypothetical scenario) serve the same function as a leader?


ATS has a leadership in the owners, and a "mid level management hierarchy" in the Mod staff. The owners make the rules, and the Mods enforce them. The owners set the direction, the focus, the mods "make it happen", and the membership provides the "fuel", the content, to keep it moving. It's been a successful model, and has had consequences that reach beyond our own electronic borders.




I'll expound by saying that your worldview is your idea of what the past, present, and future is. We have history to tell us what the world WAS like, and we experience the present, and have no clue what the future holds for us. We live our lives safely, knowing what comforts us, trying to avoid the unknown of the future. With the future being unknown, just as the first immigrants to the "New World" were faced with unknowns, we have a choice to either embrace the future or try to hide from the inevitable. A satisfying worldview incorporates all the possibilities. It's not just what IS, it is also what WAS, and what MAY BE. The only thing we have control over, to be honest, is what we as an "I" do.

I agree wholeheartedly with your concepts of "needing" a leader, whether it be a form of government, or an individual. Currently, there is no leader, there are only puppets fulfilling long forgotten honest roles.



Thanks for defining your conception of a worldview. I'll take it into consideration. All I can really add is that for there to be "puppets", someone has to pull the strings. That someone or someones would be "the leader(s)".

What happens to "leaders" when the followers no longer follow, or - GASP! - follow a different leader?



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by gimme_some_truth
 





Perhaps you should brush up a bit more?


I've spent time reading every platform in this election, every thread created. I love to read, so I've read it ALL. How much more brushing up do I need?




To create a better community we must all work together, welcoming all view points, beliefs and opinions to figure out how to create a better community. There is no one set answer as I have said. It is about working together to CREATE a better ATS.


How about explaining how we "create" a better community? That's a previously asked question. You are still not providing suggestions, only looping in circles. Can you provide possible answers, even hypothetical ones, about how you will get such a disperse audience to adhere to one set of protocols? To me, that's unrealistic, and nearly impossible. You have to understand that all people are different, and without explaining the mechanism to get people to work together without an incentive, your efforts are futile. In fact, that just breeds more mis-content. You used "create" three times in the above quote. Overusing words does not explain your position clearly. Please expound a bit more more so both the voters and I may understand.




I have proposed creating established groups to help in certain areas. For example, if newer members or even veteran members are having trouble figuring out avatars, we would have a group of established "experts" who are willing to help with any questions you may have.


That is very unrealistic. First off, veteran members already have avatars, and they know how to change them. Secondly, the "established groups" you are proposing are already in place. Any newer member can post in BBQ, and there are many members who will pipe in quickly to answer questions. BBQ is one of my favorite forums, and many times other members already beat me to providing a solution. My point is that most newer members don't know that they can post issues or questions in BBQ, and that is an issue that needs addressed. Most people sign up, and caterwaul through the site blindly, eventually figuring things out.




And again, I have many connections through out ATS, members, staff, and owner alike and at the end of the day, all a member would have to do, is come to me for help and I would be more than capable of helping them.


Honestly, you are not online 24/7. It's nice to know you are personal friends with the owners and staff. The aspect of having "many connections" isn't really something you should repeat over and over. We got it the first time. Most people know that they can u2u any mod about a question, and that mod will act impartially with a nearly immediate response. What most people don't know is how to check to see what mods are online at any given time, and therefore don't know which online mod to send a question to. To see that you are trying to elicit members to act through you instead of direct moderator interaction is not a sound position to be in. The mods and members don't need a second party to deal with, when all members should know that they can communicate with the mods directly, with no mediation required. I don't understand why you continuously use that as a position of value in your campaign. It's quite futile.




We can create programs to teach newer members the ropes, using veteran members as the "teachers" and that may even help to reduce some trolling, if they learn what is expected of an ATS member, right up front.


That is something I can agree with. There is a certain mentality that new members have, that this is just another forum. Nope, it's not. All it takes, however, is a new thread to link to that all the members contribute to, noting the proper behavior that is expected. The mods take care of the rest. Yes, ideals are great, and so are ideas, but they must be explained.

This isn't Facebook. We want substance here. Facts, please.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by Druid42

I've spent time reading every platform in this election, every thread created. I love to read, so I've read it ALL. How much more brushing up do I need?


Apparently, quite a bit more, because you keep missing the answer.




How about explaining how we "create" a better community? That's a previously asked question.


Again, you missed the answer. You sure you have been reading? The people starring my post seem to have caught the answer...Here, I will quote the part that you seem to have missed....Again...


I have proposed creating established groups to help in certain areas. For example, if newer members or even veteran members are having trouble figuring out avatars, we would have a group of established "experts" who are willing to help with any questions you may have.

Post a thread in an easy to find place making it known who the experts are in what area. Then all you have to do is send them a U2U. Wah lah, we have a community working together more than ever, to better itself and make it a friendlier place for all.

And again, I have many connections through out ATS, members, staff, and owner alike and at the end of the day, all a member would have to do, is come to me for help and I would be more than capable of helping them.

But I do support creating special help groups for new members, that work with them, to teach them the ropes and the ins and outs of ATS.



The answer is right there friend. Feel free to scroll up and read again. Take your time.




That is very unrealistic. First off, veteran members already have avatars, and they know how to change them.


Oh, NOW you acknowledge the programs I have suggested...I thought you said I didn't answer the question. Hmmm.... That said, I am not talking about veteran members needing help. I am talking about veteran members GIVING help.

And yes, believe it or not. Sometimes even veteran members need help. An ATS Regent should not exclude anyone from receiving help.... Apparently, you don't want to help all members. Just the new ones?


Secondly, the "established groups" you are proposing are already in place.


Wrong, my friend. There is no established and set up group of individual members who have dedicated their time to helping members. Yes, there is a forum where people can ask questions... That is not a group of people dedicated to helping. That is a forum where people go, hoping some one might pass by to help...My way,no one has to hope or wait. They have some one ready to help. Simple.

Most people sign up, and caterwaul through the site blindly, eventually figuring things out.

And if they were met, greeted and taught by an established group of veteran members, the ropes of ATS, they would not have to stagger around blindly and in need of help, now would they?




Honestly, you are not online 24/7. It's nice to know you are personal friends with the owners and staff.
Another reason that my program in which there are many members on stand by, willing to lend a hand with their particular area of expertise, is all the more needed my friend.

However, I am on every day. And a question to me wont go unanswered for more than a period of about 8 hours.


The aspect of having "many connections" isn't really something you should repeat over and over. We got it the first time.
You worry about how you run your campaign and I will worry about how I run mine.

But thanks for the 'advice'.




Most people know that they can u2u any mod about a question, and that mod will act impartially with a nearly immediate response.
Some people know and some people don't. With me as ATS Regent, there will be a group of people in place to make sure that all people know the ropes. No more "most", with me.

Again, working together to create a BETTER community.


The mods and members don't need a second party to deal with, when all members should know that they can communicate with the mods directly
What you say, goes directly against the point of having a members advocate... Some one or some ones to look out and teach the new members.

If you think it is so useless, perhaps drop out of the race?



That is something I can agree with.
Now you suddenly agree that my program of veteran members teaching the ropes is a good idea... You are flip flopping, mid post.


This isn't Facebook. We want substance here. Facts, please.

The facts are all there and your questions have been answered, no matter how much you try to ignore them and by all means, ignore it all you want...The people CAN read this, you know.

I have answered the same questions twice in a row now and I have my stances and proposals posted in the main election thread as well as my platform thread. I must head to bed for the night and look forward to tomorrow. If you need any more information regarding these same questions, Druid, I point you in the direction of my above posts, my platform thread and the main election thread.

Looking forward to your new questions.


Good night.

Truth_2012
edit on 22-6-2012 by gimme_some_truth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 12:38 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 





All I can really add is that for there to be "puppets", someone has to pull the strings. That someone or someones would be "the leader(s)".


You carefully refrain from stating a malevolence or benevolence to said leaders. While I agree to your statement, do you feel there is necessarily a reason to manipulate others? That question is directly related to the concept of an ATS Regent. What motivations would said leader have, save for their own personal gain? Throughout history, the primary motivation is greed. Why should the ATS Regent follow a different goal?

Yes, power does corrupt, so what virtues, if you allow me state such a concept, does a "leader" need to be successful?

I'm trying, in my own way, to instill confidence in the voters in this election, that the title of "Regent" won't go to their head, and that they will retain a certain amount of humility. Is humility a required virtue for "leadership"?



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:13 AM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

What you say, goes directly against the point of having a members advocate... Some one or some ones to look out and teach the new members.


Point of clarification:



ad·vo·cate
   [v. ad-vuh-keyt; n. ad-vuh-kit, -keyt] verb, ad·vo·cat·ed, ad·vo·cat·ing, noun

verb (used with object)
1. to speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly: He advocated higher salaries for teachers.

noun
2. a person who speaks or writes in support or defense of a person, cause, etc. (usually followed by of): an advocate of peace.

3. a person who pleads for or in behalf of another; intercessor.

4. a person who pleads the cause of another in a court of law


Source

Where in the definition do you see "Some one or some ones to look out and teach the new members"?

It looks to me like an advocate ADVOCATES. It doesn't mention mentoring or being a "big brother".

maybe you are using a different dictionary?

back to the regularly scheduled programming....



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:15 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


In your very definition it talks about supporting...Looking out for some one is a form of supporting.

It talks about, for example a person pleading some ones case...Arguably, some one pleading a persons case is looking out for a person.

You, sir, are splitting hairs.

An advocate supports his/her fellow members. An advocate looks out for his/her fellow members. Split hairs all you want, an advocate DOES support and look out for people. If you are suggesting I intend to do something other than what I have stated from day one, you are mistaken, friend.

Even Druid says that everyone knows my intentions now...Do I really have to repeat them again? I will if you need me to.


Support/look out for...Two ways of saying the same thing. And again, if druid, or you think that a second party, that is there to look out for and support the members, is not needed since we already have mods, perhaps, it is time for you to consider dropping out of the race, because you are running for a position as a members ADVOCATE.

On a side note, my apologies to the two of you, for taking a while to get into the debates with you. While you two were debating each other, I was helping several members who had wrote to me, needing help with various things around ATS.

I wanted to help them first.

Good night
edit on 22-6-2012 by gimme_some_truth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:39 AM
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Originally posted by Druid42

You carefully refrain from stating a malevolence or benevolence to said leaders.


That's because I don't feel much towards them at all. I ignore them for the most part, and do as I please. They are "leaders" in a generic, world wide sense, but I don't follow them much, so they don't lead me very far. I may lean more towards malevolence, but that's solely based on the way some others follow. It's not usually a strong malevolence.



While I agree to your statement, do you feel there is necessarily a reason to manipulate others?


Manipulate, no. Influence, yes. To "manipulate" has negative connotations not in keeping with a "leader" other than of the most Machiavellian sort. I don't see manipulators as leaders, because they are not really "leading" by example so much as coercion.



That question is directly related to the concept of an ATS Regent. What motivations would said leader have, save for their own personal gain? Throughout history, the primary motivation is greed. Why should the ATS Regent follow a different goal?


Pretty much "greed", if that's how it is to be termed.. Whats good for ATS is good for the Regent as well. What is a leader with no one to lead? What are any of us left with at ATS if ATS descends into chaos?



Yes, power does corrupt, so what virtues, if you allow me state such a concept, does a "leader" need to be successful?


I'd rather state it as "qualities" necessary in a leader, as "virtues" involves a value judgement, and values differ from person to person. "Power seeking" is not a quality necessary in a leader. It's actually counter productive, and leads to downfall, for precisely the reason you have stated. Power corrupts. Qualities necessary in a good leader include an ability to motivate, to organize, and to delegate. Those whom he leads are of paramount importance, because without them, he has nothing to lead. he may as well just go fishing. I think Tecumseh said it best when he said that the whole purpose of a leader, his sole reason for being, is to look after the well being of his People. that's not a stance that gathers power to the leader.



I'm trying, in my own way, to instill confidence in the voters in this election, that the title of "Regent" won't go to their head, and that they will retain a certain amount of humility. Is humility a required virtue for "leadership"?


You know, I've never really considered that question. I've been a leader a few times before, usually after being thrown into it or falling into it, and I never stopped to consider that. I suppose in a way it is, but not an obsequious sort of humility. Boldness and decisiveness are called for as well, and those will be at odds with an obsequious sort of humility.

The main thing to remember, I think is WHY you are there to begin with, and you are reminded of that every time you look into a pair of eyes that are looking back at you for an answer. You're there ultimately for them, not the other way around.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:58 AM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
reply to post by nenothtu
 


In your very definition it talks about supporting...Looking out for some one is a form of supporting.

It talks about, for example a person pleading some ones case...Arguably, some one pleading a persons case is looking out for a person.

You, sir, are splitting hairs.


I see.

Going by definitions, and using words as commonly defined, is "splitting hairs". Twisting words out of their defined meaning is "creativity".

Got it.

Carry on, then.



An advocate supports his/her fellow members. An advocate looks out for his/her fellow members. Split hairs all you want, an advocate DOES support and look out for people. If you are suggesting I intend to do something other than what I have stated from day one, you are mistaken, friend.


No, I've no doubt you intend to do as you have said. I've also no doubt that is not "advocating".



Even Druid says that everyone knows my intentions now...Do I really have to repeat them again? I will if you need me to.



That's between you and Druid.



Support/look out for...Two ways of saying the same thing. And again, if druid, or you think that a second party, that is there to look out for and support the members, is not needed since we already have mods, perhaps, it is time for you to consider dropping out of the race,


Nice try. Weak and transparent, but nice all the same.

Not on a bet.



because you are running for a position as a members ADVOCATE.


Which is why I bothered to find out what an "advocate" is. All I have to do is look at your description of intent to find out what it's not. If you get confused, the definition is listed above,



On a side note, my apologies to the two of you, for taking a while to get into the debates with you. While you two were debating each other, I was helping several members who had wrote to me, needing help with various things around ATS.

I wanted to help them first.


No apologies necessary. Political ads within debate posts are all the rage these days.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:22 AM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 


First, I will beg your pardon. If you are going to accuse me of posting a political ad in this thread, I hope you have proof to back it up. I have posted no political ads. Unless you are going to make the bold claim that my explaining why it took me so long to get here, was an ad.


That said, you seem to think that my intention of looking out for you as a members advocate is a bad thing. I disagree. You attack my saying that I will look out for the members, trying to question the definition of advocate and suggest that no members advocate, looks out for the people.

I say this though. Look again at the definition you linked. It uses the word support. A few times.

Is a parent being supportive when they encourage their kid to do better in school? Yes.Is a parent looking out for their kid when they encourage their kid to do better in school? Yes.

I say that being supportive and looking out for some one, is the same thing. You, apparently disagree.

But, while you are busy splitting hairs and "sneaking through the woods" I am out in the open, actually working with the people, doing the job of an ATS Regent, already. Because I care. It is what I do and what I am meant to do.

I say, it is time to move on past the pointless discussion of definitions. I say a members advocate looks out for the people. Not much else can be said about it. If you disagree, so be it.

We will just have to let the people decide.

Time to move on to the next subject, nothing else can be said that has not already been repeated by both of us.

Indeed,let's carry on. If you have any questions for me, about the ISSUES, please let me know.
edit on 22-6-2012 by gimme_some_truth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:41 AM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

The definition YOU linked says that an advocate supports people.Do you disagree? If so, look again at the definition you linked.


You'd better read it again - in it's entirety this time, without leaving important elements out. I'm not going to do it for you. learning it on your own is the best way to make sure the learning stays.



You can try to claim that my definition of advocate is wrong, but the proof is right there, friend.


It's not a claim, it's a confirmed fact. Just as you say, the definition is right there, for all to read.



I will look out for the members of ATS as a member advocate. Is that supposed to be a bad thing?



Nope, it's not a bad thing. You first have to learn what an Advocate is, and what one is not. The definition is listed right there above. I'll give you a hint, because I'm a nice guy - it involves something that you spent the better part of an entire day trying to convince me was a "bad thing".


Most of the post in this section was deleted. It was repetitive, applied a wrongful definition, and had already been responded to.

Repeatedly.



Time to move on to the next subject, mac.


Yes, lets. No need to bother with those troublesome definitions. it's not like words mean anything, right? I'm sure you WOULD like to scoot right past it.



If you have any questions for me, about the ISSUES, please let me know.


One would think that knowing what an Advocate IS would be one of the core issues in determining who would be a good Advocate.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:52 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu


You'd better read it again - in it's entirety this time, without leaving important elements out. I'm not going to do it for you. learning it on your own is the best way to make sure the learning stays.


No thanks. Whether you like it or not. I intend to look out for the members of ATS. I've read the definition and am just as aware of the meaning as you. I will no longer split hairs with you over the words "supportive" and "looking out for"

I will look out for the members of ATS as an ATS Regent. Discussing the definition of advocate has will not change the fact that I will look out for the members of ATS. Sorry, but it wont. I will look out for the members of ATS. Okay? Okay.


t's not a claim, it's a confirmed fact. Just as you say, the definition is right there, for all to read.


My claim was that as an advocate I will look out for the people of ATS. You seem to think I shouldn't. Duly noted...But whether you like it or not. I will always look out for the people of ATS. I can't say it any plainer.


Nope, it's not a bad thing. You first have to learn what an Advocate is, and what one is not. The definition is listed right there above. I'll give you a hint, because I'm a nice guy - it involves something that you spent the better part of an entire day trying to convince me was a "bad thing".


Perhaps you should stop " let your fingers twitching and just see what comes out"... You are not making sense at all.

I have claimed from the start that as an ATS regent, I will work with the people, look out for them etc... You want to attack what I plan to do as an ATS regent by splitting hairs about my use of the phrase 'Looking out for".

I say, get over it. I will be looking out for people... Whether you like it or not.




Most of the post in this section was deleted. It was repetitive, applied a wrongful definition, and had already been responded to.


Nah, that is not an answer, that is skipping over a point, with a lame attempt at distraction.



Yes, lets. No need to bother with those troublesome definitions. it's not like words mean anything, right? I'm sure you WOULD like to scoot right past it.


If you have more you would like to say about my wanting to looking out for the members even though it is not directly in the definition of advocate,you go right ahead.




One would think that knowing what an Advocate IS would be one of the core issues in determining who would be a good Advocate.




Are you suggesting that our stances on what an advocate is and does, has not been stated yet? in the last several posts you don't think the people know where we stand on that yet?



Ladies and gentleman,my opponent chooses to attempt to attack the fact that I want to do more than what is in the definition of advocate.

I say this... Even if I were wrong.... that simply means that I will be going above and beyond the definition of advocate by doing more than just what is stated in the definition.You are free to tether yourself to just that simple definition. I plan on doing a lot more than that.

So,you keep worrying about your definition. I will be worrying about the people.

The horse is dead, friend.... Time to stop beating it.

Next question?
edit on 22-6-2012 by gimme_some_truth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:57 AM
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reply to post by gimme_some_truth
 


I thought you wanted to "get past" definitions?

It's still there. It hasn't changed. I'm not going to keep discussing it over and over, when nothing changes.

You may post as repetitively as you like.

Next.


edit on 2012/6/22 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:59 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by gimme_some_truth
 


I thought you wanted to "get past" definitions?

It's still there. It hasn't changed. I'm not going to keep discussing it over and over, when nothing changes.

You may post as repetitively as you like.

next.


what?

There is a reason I just said that it is time to stop beating the dead horse...I love how you try and fail to turn things around on me, so frequently...That doesn't make ME look bad.


Nothing else I can say about this one, friend.


I look forward to the NEXT subject...Let me know when YOU get there.


Until then, maybe I will try to get back to sleep. Wish me luck
edit on 22-6-2012 by gimme_some_truth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 03:06 AM
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Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

I say this... Even if I were wrong.... that simply means that I will be going above and beyond the definition of advocate by doing more than just what is stated in the definition.You are free to tether yourself to just that simple definition. I plan on doing a lot more than that.



"Going over and above" IS one way of stating "missing entirely" - but that's usually reserved for things like target practice, not pulling the wool over the eyes of the voters.

The definition is there. I will Advocate, as the position was stated to entail. and you will not. Instead you plan to.... whatever that is. All I can say for sure is that it's not advocacy. I will advocate for the membership, you will not - as you have now repeatedly stated and tried to wiggle out of being "tethered to".

case closed.

Onward.

P.S. - smooth move with the post edit. Pity I quoted the relevant part before the edit, and cut out the repetitive parts, Nice try. No cigar.

tell me again about that "honesty" and "integrity".


P.P.S. - if you want the entire post back, I've still got it....




edit on 2012/6/22 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 03:12 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu

case closed.

Onward.




I will gladly let you have the last word on that subject, friend.


I look forward to the next topic.

Until tomorrow, I wish you a good night.





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