Obama asserts executive privilege on Fast and Furious documents

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5

 

You tell me not to believe fox news and cite them as your source?

Please, crucify me some more.

I thought I chose a source you would find credible? Would you like another source?

I also cited the letter from Senator Grassley...

reply to post by Indigo5


Thats just it.. there has been no accountability in terms of who authorized the program. That leads me to think it came from the top and since it deals with a program going across national borders I highly doubt it was a decision the director of ATF made himself. That type of decision comes with political ramifications, especially when the foreign country in question is kept out of the loop on fast and furious.

Line officers dont approve programs like this on their own, and as we have seen many were upset over the allowed to walk position. Even field supervisors dont have the authority to fdo what occured.

That approval came from high up and we need to find out just how high it went, why it was even allowed and what the ramifications are. People need to be held accountible and by accountible im referring to those who approved the plan and ignored the field officer complainsts about it.

If there is nothing to hide then why did the agent who turned whistle blower get fired? They can give all the reasons they want but in the end its because of him exposing the problem.

The DOJ is not conducting a serious investigation, they are stalling to get it past the elections and are playing the politics card on their own in hopes the American people arent paying attention. If they were they would know this has been an ongoing issue since 2010.

As I have stated there is no legal basis to invoke eecutive privilege as it does not apply to criminal activity. Executive privilege is not absolute either, and the court has ruled the public interest in criminal proceedings supercedes the protection (US vs. Nixon).

Appoint a special prosecutor and be done with it.


ETA - It makes me wonder if the latest administration position on illegal immigrants is not a way to buy Mexicos silence until after the US election to resolve it. The Mexican government is pissed and want answers....


If there is one thing the current US administration is good at is changing the channel... Everytime something large gains traction on Obama something else occurs that refocuses the medias, and by extension, the peoples attention.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5

 

You tell me not to believe fox news and cite them as your source?

Please, crucify me some more.

I thought I chose a source you would find credible? Would you like another source?

I also cited the letter from Senator Grassley...

edit on 25-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)[/]
You stated that you don't believe news organizations.

You believe what politicians say? Whatever, I don't trust any of them too much. extra DIV

Originally posted by butcherguy
You stated that you don't believe news organizations.

You believe what politicians say? Whatever, I don't trust any of them too much.

Fixed it for you...

reply to post by Xcathdra

Thank you sir!

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Thats just it.. there has been no accountability in terms of who authorized the program. That leads me to think it came from the top and since it deals with a program going across national borders I highly doubt it was a decision the director of ATF made himself. That type of decision comes with political ramifications, especially when the foreign country in question is kept out of the loop on fast and furious.

Line officers dont approve programs like this on their own, and as we have seen many were upset over the allowed to walk position. Even field supervisors dont have the authority to fdo what occured.

That approval came from high up and we need to find out just how high it went, why it was even allowed and what the ramifications are. People need to be held accountible and by accountible im referring to those who approved the plan and ignored the field officer complainsts about it.

If there is nothing to hide then why did the agent who turned whistle blower get fired? They can give all the reasons they want but in the end its because of him exposing the problem.

The DOJ is not conducting a serious investigation, they are stalling to get it past the elections and are playing the politics card on their own in hopes the American people arent paying attention. If they were they would know this has been an ongoing issue since 2010.

As I have stated there is no legal basis to invoke eecutive privilege as it does not apply to criminal activity. Executive privilege is not absolute either, and the court has ruled the public interest in criminal proceedings supercedes the protection (US vs. Nixon).

Appoint a special prosecutor and be done with it.


ETA - It makes me wonder if the latest administration position on illegal immigrants is not a way to buy Mexicos silence until after the US election to resolve it. The Mexican government is pissed and want answers....


If there is one thing the current US administration is good at is changing the channel... Everytime something large gains traction on Obama something else occurs that refocuses the medias, and by extension, the peoples attention.

edit on 25-6-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry deserves a special prosecutor.

His parents are about ready to throw their TV through the window.

We need to find out what did they know and when did they know it.

I think Holder and Obama knew everything from the beginning.

They want to push that damaging truth revelation past the November election.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Thats just it.. there has been no accountability in terms of who authorized the program. That leads me to think it came from the top and since it deals with a program going across national borders I highly doubt it was a decision the director of ATF made himself. That type of decision comes with political ramifications, especially when the foreign country in question is kept out of the loop on fast and furious.

Line officers dont approve programs like this on their own, and as we have seen many were upset over the allowed to walk position. Even field supervisors dont have the authority to fdo what occured.

Even IF...BIG IF...it was authorized by DC, which even IF it was I suspect would be lower downs than Holder...BUT even if Holder authorized it....The logical/best place to begin is with Newell and ATF...corner them, hold them to the flames and work your way UP....not start at the top...starting at the top is not only the worst way to uncover the truth, it is political. It makes NO SENSE to start with Holder. You start with the Lead ATF agent and the team reporting to him. There is a tonnage of evidence these guys were huge fans of the program. They thought it up, campaigned for it, kept it quite, Newell was even shut down twice with the Hernandez case and Operation Wide Reciever and still returned to GunWalking with Fast and Furious.

NOT TOP-DOWN investigation...and street cop will tell you that is phenominally stupid....BOTTOM-UP.

The only explanation I can find for Issa doing a TOP-DOWN investigation is for political purposes.

Originally posted by XcathdraThat approval came from high up

Pure speculation.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
and we need to find out just how high it went, why it was even allowed and what the ramifications are.

Agreed, but Issa is using exactly the opposite approach that would be most effective...Top-down vs. Bottom-up.

Originally posted by XcathdraPeople need to be held accountible and by accountible im referring to those who approved the plan and ignored the field officer complainsts about it.

The "Whistlerblower" has been revealed to have lied about his participation. He was actually FOR gunwalking.

Again if we want to know who ignored complaints, why not ask those involved who were complaining? Get those communications and follow the trail? Rather than go after Holder first without proof?

If there is nothing to hide then why did the agent who turned whistle blower get fired? They can give all the reasons they want but in the end its because of him exposing the problem.

You need to read the recent link I provided on the Whistleblower. He could have easily been fired because he was actually one of the guys who went rougue and ran the Gunwalking despite being told no. He has lied to congress and there is an investigation into the Whistleblower. Several emails came out where he actually prepared several pitch documents for gunwalking, strongly advocating it...just days before it hit the fan and he told Congress he was against it.

The DOJ is not conducting a serious investigation, they are stalling to get it past the elections and are playing the politics card on their own in hopes the American people arent paying attention. If they were they would know this has been an ongoing issue since 2010.

Again pure speculation...apparently is it Ok when you do it? Just not me?

As I have stated there is no legal basis to invoke eecutive privilege as it does not apply to criminal activity. Executive privilege is not absolute either, and the court has ruled the public interest in criminal proceedings supercedes the protection (US vs. Nixon).

And again...Criminal activity or not...there is not sufficient evidence to conclude that Holder or Obama was involved in criminal activity. A Criminal investigation is not a free pass to demand whatever you like from whomever you like without demonstrated cause.

Appoint a special prosecutor and be done with it.

Amen to that...but Issa won't have it. He is enjoying the politics.

ETA - It makes me wonder if the latest administration position on illegal immigrants is not a way to buy Mexicos silence until after the US election to resolve it. The Mexican government is pissed and want answers....

Think that one out.

If there is one thing the current US administration is good at is changing the channel... Everytime something large gains traction on Obama something else occurs that refocuses the medias, and by extension, the peoples attention.

edit on 25-6-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

People have a short attention span...

I tend to go in this direction...

Obama had to short circuit the Fast and Furious probe until after the election and take the attending political heat. It was in part a play for time which has provided him the opportunity of making a deal with those Republicans more interested in political expedience than in doing what’s right. Remember, John Boehner put off the contempt vote of the full House until this week, evidently in the hope a deal could be worked out in the interim.

If there is no contempt vote by Friday, we’ll know Obama’s privilege claim worked beautifully. We’ll also know that conservatives have once again been sold out by the Republican brass.

Source

reply to post by relocator


This, in essence, is the game of politics. The People are leveraged for concessions. Our sentiments are the violins of the elite.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Even IF...BIG IF...it was authorized by DC, which even IF it was I suspect would be lower downs than Holder...BUT even if Holder authorized it....The logical/best place to begin is with Newell and ATF...corner them, hold them to the flames and work your way UP....not start at the top...starting at the top is not only the worst way to uncover the truth, it is political. It makes NO SENSE to start with Holder. You start with the Lead ATF agent and the team reporting to him. There is a tonnage of evidence these guys were huge fans of the program. They thought it up, campaigned for it, kept it quite, Newell was even shut down twice with the Hernandez case and Operation Wide Reciever and still returned to GunWalking with Fast and Furious.

NOT TOP-DOWN investigation...and street cop will tell you that is phenominally stupid....BOTTOM-UP.

The only explanation I can find for Issa doing a TOP-DOWN investigation is for political purposes.

Again there are 2 investigations in this mess. The first is the criminal aspect being run by the DOJ, which has not accomplished anything related to determining who is at fault.

The second is Congressional and is rightfully pointed at the AG. The above investigation should not be taking this long, which supports the mindset that there is either a coverup or the AG's office just doesn't care. The congressional one is attempting to determine who knew what, when and wh yit was signed off on. Holders dep AG signed off on several aspects of fast and furious which suggests higher ups were in the know contrary to their claims.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Pure speculation.

Which needs to be investigated.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Agreed, but Issa is using exactly the opposite approach that would be most effective...Top-down vs. Bottom-up.

Because Issa and the committee arent conducting an investigation of the agents but the program itself. They want to know who knew about this, when and why it was allowed to happen.

Originally posted by Indigo5
The "Whistlerblower" has been revealed to have lied about his participation. He was actually FOR gunwalking.
Again if we want to know who ignored complaints, why not ask those involved who were complaining? Get those communications and follow the trail? Rather than go after Holder first without proof?

Please provide a link about the whistleblower telling lies. From what Ir ead he was fine with the program until they were ordered to NOT interdict the guns but to allow them to cross with no notification to Mexican authorities.

Second, again, this type of operation needs approval from higher up because of the border. We are talking about a program that allowed gunshop owners to violate the law in order to assist the ATF. ATF policy was then violated by not interdicting the guns.

We have ATF agents who complained about that and were told to be quiet and do their jobs. That order came from someone higher. Holder has been caught lying to Congress several times now and is the person who should be in the hot seat for allowing the operation to continue. I will point out that no one at the DOJ was concerned until something went wrong and they got caught.

Originally posted by Indigo5
You need to read the recent link I provided on the Whistleblower. He could have easily been fired because he was actually one of the guys who went rougue and ran the Gunwalking despite being told no. He has lied to congress and there is an investigation into the Whistleblower. Several emails came out where he actually prepared several pitch documents for gunwalking, strongly advocating it...just days before it hit the fan and he told Congress he was against it.

The agent in question did not go rogue. He was terminated shortly after reporting the law violations. Again please do some research into the entire gunwalking program. The program in place required the guns to be interdicted as well as ATF policies. It was not until fast and furious did they ignore the policy and allow the guns to walk without notifying their counterparts or taking any action to stop the guns.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Again pure speculation...apparently is it Ok when you do it? Just not me?

Why is it taking 2 plus years then to hold anyone accountible? Why executive privilege?

Originally posted by Indigo5
And again...Criminal activity or not...there is not sufficient evidence to conclude that Holder or Obama was involved in criminal activity. A Criminal investigation is not a free pass to demand whatever you like from whomever you like without demonstrated cause.

The US Supreme Court says your wrong. Executive privilege cannot be used to cover up criminal wrongdoing. Last I checked lying to congress is a criminal offense as well.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Amen to that...but Issa won't have it. He is enjoying the politics.

Not at all.. He is attempting to do what the AG and this administration has failed to do. Enforce the laws and to conduct themselves and their operations within the laws. If it was not for the whistleblower we never would be at this point. The AG and the administration would have continued as if nothing were wrong.

The only thing political is the Democrats constantly screaming this entire issue is political, even though its been ongoing for more than 2 years. Holder has had 9 chances to comply with the subpoenas and has failed to do so. I sincerely hope Issa gets a federal judge to issue a subpoena for those files.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Think that one out.

I have... Was it not Obama who asked Russia to chill on some issues until after the elections, where he will have more flexability?

Originally posted by Indigo5
People have a short attention span...

Not at all.. the administration is just that good at obfuscation and lying when it suits their needs. Like when Obama stated he would have the most open and transparent government we have seen.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


"It's Bush's fault" is the instant knee-jerk reaction of the current administration. It is now habit to instantly spit out that phase because it has become the left's fix-all statement. Put's all responsibility elsewhere. Fits in there with "my dog ate it".

Originally posted by Xcathdra


Please provide a link about the whistleblower telling lies. From what Ir ead he was fine with the program until they were ordered to NOT interdict the guns but to allow them to cross with no notification to Mexican authorities.

Issa acknowledges Fast and Furious whistleblower once proposed 'gunwalking'

Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., in bringing up the case by name unprompted, was inadvertently pre-empting what could come to light in a possible document dump. In coming forward, whistleblower John Dodson claimed Fast and Furious was the work of stubborn ATF supervisors run amok. But lawyers for those Arizona supervisors have said Dodson's role in the other "gunwalking" case undercuts his credibility as a key witness against Fast and Furious.

.....

Despite vowing to "deliver the facts to the American people" over who thought "gunwalking" was a "good idea," neither Republicans nor Democrats had ever noted in repeated hearings, reports or interviews the case in which Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives agent Dodson drafted and forwarded a request to "walk" guns just months before he ignited a national controversy over such tactics.

....

But neither lawmaker had previously discussed the case or mentioned it by name in public -- though they've known about it for some time, according to Republican staffers.

....

Dodson email:

"The logic employed is that by authorizing the 'walking' of a small amount of firearms that, ultimately, we can cease the trafficking of a significant number," said the proposal Dodson emailed. "It is believed that if this request be authorized, the benefits would far outweigh any that could be derived from the arrest of individuals on such minor violations as (lying on forms) and potentially provide invaluable, otherwise unattainable, information into the workings of an active/ongoing (firearms trafficking organization)."

.....

In an email on May 18, 2010, obtained by Fox News, Dodson told an ATF colleague in Washington, "As it stands -- my (undercover) plan is a Go," adding that ATF policy neither explicitly authorizes nor prohibits "letting guns walk" for "my (undercover) plan."

Days later, Dodson told a federal prosecutor about the scheme to "walk" guns. The prosecutor told Dodson in an email that "as you develop your strategy" higher-ups in the U.S. Attorney's Office must "approve letting the straw purchased guns go."

Then, on May 27, 2010, Dodson sent what appears to be a final -- or near-final -- version of a written proposal to ATF group supervisor David Voth. According to the proposal, "walking 4 to 6" guns "would be a satisfactory amount to allow (agent) Dodson to win the favor of (Fernandez) and secure a higher position within the (firearms trafficking organization)."

"This request is predicated on ATF's previous authorization of allowing firearms to be trafficked ("walked") infurtherence (sic) of investigations which target (organizations) as opposed to individuals," said the proposal, as obtained by Fox News. "Lastly, the spirit of this request is to further represent ATF's position at the pinnacle of Federal Law Enforcement by again accepting the difficult missions and not shying away from the manner and means necessary to meet them."

Voth opposed the idea, he told congressional investigators last year and again more recently.

Read more: www.foxnews.com...

I also highly recommend this released today...an Expose on the F&F scandal by Fortune Magazine

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal
features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com...

If truth is your aim, then I reccomend gathering as much insight into what happened as possible....and then determine what exactly is going on in DC with Issa and Holder.

As it stands it seems you have begun with a premise and are intent on defending it what ever the evidence shows.

reply to post by Indigo5

Fox News...
CNN....
That's no good.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Indigo5
You need to read the recent link I provided on the Whistleblower. He could have easily been fired because he was actually one of the guys who went rougue and ran the Gunwalking despite being told no. He has lied to congress and there is an investigation into the Whistleblower. Several emails came out where he actually prepared several pitch documents for gunwalking, strongly advocating it...just days before it hit the fan and he told Congress he was against it.

The agent in question did not go rogue. He was terminated shortly after reporting the law violations. Again please do some research into the entire gunwalking program.

For the love of God! His ATF nickname was literally "Renegade"!

Dodson's faction grew antagonistic to Voth. They regularly fired off snide e-mails and seemed to delight in mocking Voth and his methodical nature. They were scornful of protocol, according to ATF agents. Dodson would show up to work in flip-flops. He came unprepared for operations—without safety equipment or back-up plans—and was pulled off at least one surveillance for his own safety, say two colleagues. He earned the nickname "Renegade," and soon Voth's group effectively divided into two clashing factions: the Sunshine Bears and the Renegades.

features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com...

PLEASE stop accusing me of not doing research. I seem to be the only one who actually IS researching this case. Everyone else is aping Issa.

reply to post by Indigo5

CNN blog?

How about some hard evidence?

reply to post by butcherguy


You are wasting space with your posts. Try contributing? Or is that not your MO?

reply to post by Indigo5
There has been a lot wasted.

You wasted a lot more space quoting worthless sources.

What can you contribute other than your opinion, which we have gotten at this point already?

When the rest of the documents come forward, then maybe we will know the real story.

Its going to court...

Boehner says House will likely file suit within weeks to get Fast & Furious documents

Since the DOJ feels its above the law when it comes to holding their own accountable, the civil contempt is where this is headed now. It will be up to a judge to determine the legalities, including whether or not executive privilege can be applied.

If it cannot, I am curious if the DOJ is going to continue to ignore the laws when it comes to their own.

The suit will be filed in a couple weeks.

This smells of keeping something more shocking under wraps than an already stunning Fast & Furious deal..

Are there details of worse activities that would surface, should the documents be released?

Would those documents draw a clear line to the White House?

Just being suspicious here, it just seems that using common sense, and this being an election year, it would have been so much more simpler to throw Holder under the bus, have him resign, and replaced..

I don't think this is about protecting Holder, it's protecting either folks higher up, or other operations that would make F&F look like child's play?