Obama asserts executive privilege on Fast and Furious documents

Originally posted by Indigo5
Please support that claim...

Your link above states...

As I stated check the refernce sources at the bottom of the links. In Operation Wide Receiver ATF agents tracked the guns as well as the buyers / buyer contacts to the Mexican border, while remaining in contact with their Mexican counter parts.

Once they crossed into Mexico, Mexican police / military picked up the surveilliance and they went from there.

In Operation Fast and Furious the Mexican government was never notiied or kept in the loop. ATF agents were not allowed to follow or interdict the weapons. They were allowed to cross the border, and since Mexican authorities were out of the loop, we have the mess we have now.


Im checking on the veracity of the info below but so far it looks accurate.
Side by side comparison -
Differences between Bush's "Wide Receiver" and Obama's "Fast & Furious" explained for stupid liberals (not my title)

Wide Receiver - The number of guns used in the operation from the beginning until the end of the operation was 300
Fast & Furious - The number of guns used in the operation from the beginning until the end of the operation was 2,000

Wide Receiver - Guns were traced with miniature GPS devices inserted inside the guns
Fast & Furious - No tracking devices were used

Wide Receiver - ATF agents were ordered to follow the gun smugglers from the gun store to the US/Mexico border.
Fast & Furious - ATF agents were ordered to stand down and not follow the gun smugglers after they left the gun store

Wide Receiver - Mexican army and police was in the loop about Wide Receiver. They took over the surveillance of the gun smugglers after they crossed with the guns in Mexico.
Fast & Furious - Mexican authorities were kept in the dark by the ATF and the US DOJ. They had no idea about Fast & Furious and the fact that guns provided to gun smugglers by the American authorities were "walked" in Mexico into the hands of drug cartel murderers.

Wide Receiver - When a small number of guns (30-40) were lost due to the malfunctioning GPS tracking devices operation Wide Receiver was immediately aborted and cancelled
Fast and Furious - Operation continued even after ATF and DOJ lost track of all 2,000 guns sold to Mexican drug cartels

Wide Receiver - The operation was planned in such a way the gun smugglers and their cargo were kept under surveillance step by step, from the gun store to the US/Mexico border, across the border into Mexico and to their final destination: the hands of the drug cartel killers. This could have led to arrests made in joint operations by the Mexican authorities and DEA and ATF agents.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Same man who ran operation Wide Receiver...Holder has testified 9 times...how many times has Issa called Newell to testify? Just wondering as that would seem the logical avenue if this was an actual investigation verse political witch hunt.

The diference being MExican authorities were notified under wide receiver. Under fast and furious they were not.

Read my previous post with the side by side comparison. There were numerous people / program cross overs and we know this because we have agents in fast and furious upset about not being allowed to interdict, which ran contrary to the wide receiver program.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Well folks...the "voice in the wilderness" thing is getting old on this thread.

I do feel I have responded directly to posts, while at the same time haven't had questions answered or factual evidence acknowledged by most. Generally my posts have been ignored rather than rebutted...and when rebutted, often in the form of one liner, unsupported emotive "Obama's a dictator" nonsense.

Absent legitimate debate, I'll let this thread return to the echo-chamber, as I am sure you folks will feel relieved.

How about this post

Just this question in particular:

Why did Holder lie to the Senate committee repeatedly?

I guess it would look a little different if I ask why the Attorney General of the United States lied repeatedly to a Senate committee.

Originally posted by relocator
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Issa wants to talk to O’Reilly because O’Reilly maintained a personal relationship with Phoenix ATF agent-in-charge Bill Newell and had direct communication with Newell regarding Operation Fast & Furious, the program that let some 2,000 guns from dealers cooperating with ATF flow directly into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. Emails indicate that Newell was keeping O’Reilly briefed about the operation and that O’Reilly was briefing others in the White House, but investigators would like to know who O’Reilly was sharing this information with – which is, of course, the obvious reason the White House would reject Issa’s request; that they do not want O’Reilly revealing who was in his information loop.

all you have to do is type your questions into google to find the answer...

Source

Sometimes though you have to hurry up before they get wiped off the internet...

October 1, 2011 - Townhall.com (Katie Pavlich) - In the first bombshell a map has been found attached to an email sent by William Newell to the White House. The map shows where Fast and Furious guns were recovered in Mexico. William Newell has testified that "we never let guns walk" and the White House has denied any knowledge of guns being sent to Mexico. This map is strong evidence that those statements were false.

Source

No offense...but WND and Townhall's Katie Pavich? Please give me some factual sources...

And my Question was ...did Newell testify? If so, when? If he lied under oath and said they didn't let guns walk...then why hasn't Issa pursued him for more testimony? Holder has testified 9 times.

WASHINGTON - An ATF attorney raised "moral objections" to a plan to provide criminals with firearms "to be released into the community, and possibly into Mexico, without any further ability by the U.S. Government to control their movement or future use."

That's according to a memo written to the U.S. Attorney in Arizona in July of 2006. Yet ATF went ahead with the so-called "gunwalking," in its operation "Wide Receiver," and later in "Fast and Furious" and numerous other cases.


Gunwalking refers to a controversial investigative tactic allowing guns to be sold to suspected traffickers to see where they'd end up, and try to take down a "big fish" in a drug cartel. As CBS News reported last March, Wide Receiver let hundreds of weapons "walk" in 2006 and 2007, prior to inception of the larger Fast and Furious operation in 2009 and 2010.

Phoenix ATF Special Agent in Charge Bill Newell oversaw both gunwalking operations. Newell was named to head the Phoenix office in June 2006. One month later came the memo seeking approval for the gunwalking. At a January press conference, Newell was asked if guns were allowed to walk in Fast and Furious, and he replied "hell, no." That answer was soon revealed as false, and Newell was transferred to ATF headquarters.

It would be awesome if the committee was looking to actually get to the bottom of this....but that requires starting with a Bush administration operation.....and that is not going to happen.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Two agents have died by gunfire during the time Wide Receiver started and F&F ended.

This is not correct.

Agent Zapata (killed - 2011) and Agent Brian Terry (killed 2010) were both victims of Fast and Furious. Wide Receiver was ended in 2007.

Originally posted by Indigo5
In only one of those circumstances was a weapon recovered.

So the answer is we don't know, but that would seem an unimportant question since those guns...both F&F and Wide-Receiver are still out there and only the future will tell how many people, primarily Mexicans will die by the trigger of those weapons.

Again not correct.
Wide Reciver ended in 2007.
Fast and Furious was started in 2009 and ended in 2011.

Originally posted by Indigo5
F&F needs a real investigation...not this political show. Issa is doing a diservice to anyone that genuinely thinks this should be investigated.

Issa is doing exactly what he is suppose to do. He is exercising government oversight of a botched weapons program that crossed international borders.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Newell was the agent in charge for both F&F and WIde Receiver...Holder has testified 9 times....has Newell been called to testify?

Political show...not investigation.

Investigation, not a political show at all. The AG has been caught lying about F and F from the start. Someone else pointed out that when records are equested for wide receiver and fast and furious, there is no issue obtaining the wide receiver files. Newell was not the lead agent in charge of wide receiver however he was the lead agent for fast and furious.

F and F files are restricted due to executive privilege.

Please stop trying to make tis political when its anything but. Please, respectfully, do a bit more research on the players in this drama and what their function was before making a claim that is not supported by the facts. We have enough confusion with this mess as it is.

Political???
This investigation has been going on since 2010 so im not sure how you can support the political show comment. As you pointed out Holder has testified 9 times now. Had he been upfront and honest instead of obfuscating the committee we could have this resolved by now.

Holder is even refusing to turn over a privileged log.

Why would he do this? Whats the purpose?

You seem to be on the opposite side of the fence and thats fine. Maybe you can explain to me why he refuses to turn the info over.

reply to post by Indigo5

Holder has testified 9 times.

And he's been caught in lies several times. If the Senate committee had all of the documents that they have requested, maybe we would see how many more times that he has lied to the committee.

i've always wondered why those two Border Patrol Police guys, got sent too prison,, for shooting an escaping drug dealer,,is that the same time period?
i think there was talk of a Bush pardon,,but,,,,,u know he had only so many pardons,,
there still in jail?,
might be interesting too hear what they might have too contribute.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Indigo5
Two agents have died by gunfire during the time Wide Receiver started and F&F ended.

This is not correct.

Agent Zapata (killed - 2011) and Agent Brian Terry (killed 2010) were both victims of Fast and Furious. Wide Receiver was ended in 2007.

News release yesterday...

The notices maintain that a Texas-based operation similar to Operation Fast and Furious is responsible for allowing the weapons that killed Zapata and injured Avila to get into the hands of known killers.

Under Operation Fast and Furious, ATF allegedly monitored criminals trafficking arms within the United States and allowed guns to “walk” into Mexico. The aim was to identify major weapons smugglers and drug cartel operatives

U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano has said she doesn’t know if the weapons used to kill Zapata and injure Avila are tied to the operation.

www.brownsvilleherald.com...

It looks as if they haven't determined if the guns used were "Gun-Walkers"?

From what I can research the ATF did indeed have the gun trafficer who sold the AK-47 used in the murder under surveilliance, but no evidence that it was part of F&F?

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Indigo5
In only one of those circumstances was a weapon recovered.

So the answer is we don't know, but that would seem an unimportant question since those guns...both F&F and Wide-Receiver are still out there and only the future will tell how many people, primarily Mexicans will die by the trigger of those weapons.

Again not correct.
Wide Reciver ended in 2007.
Fast and Furious was started in 2009 and ended in 2011.

Meant to say both F&F and Wide Receiver guns are still out there...which is correct.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Indigo5
F&F needs a real investigation...not this political show. Issa is doing a diservice to anyone that genuinely thinks this should be investigated.

Issa is doing exactly what he is suppose to do. He is exercising government oversight of a botched weapons program that crossed international borders.

Limited only to the years 2009 forward and only where it might embarrass the Obama Administration.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Indigo5
Newell was the agent in charge for both F&F and WIde Receiver...Holder has testified 9 times....has Newell been called to testify?

Political show...not investigation.

Investigation, not a political show at all. The AG has been caught lying about F and F from the start. Someone else pointed out that when records are equested for wide receiver and fast and furious, there is no issue obtaining the wide receiver files. Newell was not the lead agent in charge of wide receiver however he was the lead agent for fast and furious.

Precisely untrue...

2006–2007: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes

suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4][10]

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations

en.wikipedia.org...

I can provide other links if you need them...His bio and history are available.

reply to post by Indigo5


Actually it says

....Homeland Security Janet Napolitano has said she doesn’t know...

Which is different from "they haven't determined."


But even so, the real question is, if they include the previous administrations program in the investigation, Holder would or should release the information?

This is an outrage because of the target of the investigation? Or because of the timing? If so, when would be the right time to investigate?

This is obviously an important matter... otherwise no one would spend so much energy to change the narrative... and I am not naive enough to believe that there aren't gleeful politicians on the other side loving this and doing whatever they can to make it more damning... but truthfully... isn't it already damning enough?

Originally posted by Indigo5

2006–2007: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes

suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4][10]

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations

en.wikipedia.org...

I can provide other links if you need them...His bio and history are available.

Can it not be argued that the program was shut down specifically because the Mexicans failed to track the weapons as agreed? Or is it that they recognized the inherent flaws in the operation to participate in criminal activity to ensnare criminals?

Originally posted by Xcathdra
You seem to be on the opposite side of the fence and thats fine. Maybe you can explain to me why he refuses to turn the info over.

edit on 22-6-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

I have done that and you don't seem to be understanding.

Issa's latest request, the one of which has provoked the contempt charge and the invoking of executive priviledge is specifically for communications after Feb. 2011 between white house officials and their response to the media storm and GOP led investigation.

These communications will involve frank and honest discussions about the crap-storm the Administration was facing as F&F was all over the press.

Those communications were after the operation had ceased. Holder has provided over 7K pages of communications that were requested regarding the operation when it was active.

This latest request is pure political theater and is aimed at embarrassing the President.

Issa is playing politics when he should be holding the ATF accountable....

He is doing it so successfully that you weren't even aware that the same ATF Agent ran both Wide Receiver under GWB that ran F&F under Obama...all you can focus on is Holder and Obama...nothing happened before 2009...politics...

Originally posted by Maxmars

Originally posted by Indigo5

2006–2007: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes

suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4][10]

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations

en.wikipedia.org...

I can provide other links if you need them...His bio and history are available.

Can it not be argued that the program was shut down specifically because the Mexicans failed to track the weapons as agreed? Or is it that they recognized the inherent flaws in the operation to participate in criminal activity to ensnare criminals?

I think the occassional voice of sanity piped in...in this case "Hoover", but when Hoover was no longer AD of Field Operations, Newell (Lead ATF Agent over Wide-Receiver and F&F) reverted to the tactic.

Originally posted by Maxmars

But even so, the real question is, if they include the previous administrations program in the investigation, Holder would or should release the information?

Seeing as the information Holder refuses to release is internal White House communications from Feb. 2011...long after both operations ceased and it was a media storm...

No...on "would or should"..

It is political fishing with those communications and aimed at embarrassing the POTUS...not furthering the investigation.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by Xcathdra
You seem to be on the opposite side of the fence and thats fine. Maybe you can explain to me why he refuses to turn the info over.

edit on 22-6-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

I have done that and you don't seem to be understanding.

Issa's latest request, the one of which has provoked the contempt charge and the invoking of executive priviledge is specifically for communications after Feb. 2011 between white house officials and their response to the media storm and GOP led investigation.

These communications will involve frank and honest discussions about the crap-storm the Administration was facing as F&F was all over the press.

Those communications were after the operation had ceased. Holder has provided over 7K pages of communications that were requested regarding the operation when it was active.

This latest request is pure political theater and is aimed at embarrassing the President.

Issa is playing politics when he should be holding the ATF accountable....

He is doing it so successfully that you weren't even aware that the same ATF Agent ran both Wide Receiver under GWB that ran F&F under Obama...all you can focus on is Holder and Obama...nothing happened before 2009...politics...

Yet again, you are pretending to know what is in those documents without seeing them. You have not responded to my questions but i'll try sgain.. What makes you SO sure, that these documents will not provide evidence? Were you cc'd on them?!? Lol
Seriously, you have to admit that you cannot know if they will not provide evidence, and again, why would Obama hide them?!? Like another poster said pages back, at least let a selection of committee members view them behind closed doors.. As much as i detest the secrecy, Just so someone can determine the severity of the documents!?!

Originally posted by Maxmars


This is obviously an important matter... otherwise no one would spend so much energy to change the narrative..

By "change the narrative" you mean focusing on President Obama rather than the folks at ATF, like Newell who led both Wide-Receiver and F&F? AN inconvenient fact, him having led a Bush era gun-walking program, that seems to have largely saved him from extensive scrutiny by the "Commision".

Originally posted by Maxmars
. and I am not naive enough to believe that there aren't gleeful politicians on the other side loving this and doing whatever they can to make it more damning... but truthfully... isn't it already damning enough?

edit on 22-6-2012 by Maxmars because: (no reason given)

In politics...it is NEVER "Damning enough" More is always better and the truth doesn't matter.

Originally posted by Nspekta
Yet again, you are pretending to know what is in those documents without seeing them. You have not responded to my questions but i'll try sgain.. What makes you SO sure, that these documents will not provide evidence? Were you cc'd on them?!? Lol

And that sentiment is exactly what is termed "fishing"...there might be something there, so we are entitled to it...without demonstrating that useful evidence is likely there.

While at the same time...what is "likely" there is the Obama administration discussing how the GOP is going after them, how the media crapstorm will effect the election etc. etc. ALL of which will be immediately released to the media by Issa.

Fishing...but not even fishing for truth...

I am all for a real F&F investigation...it was a complete clusterF...I am just confused why you guys are settling for a political attack ad in place of that investigation....Well I am not really confused why...

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by Maxmars

But even so, the real question is, if they include the previous administrations program in the investigation, Holder would or should release the information?

Seeing as the information Holder refuses to release is internal White House communications from Feb. 2011...long after both operations ceased and it was a media storm...

No...on "would or should"..

It is political fishing with those communications and aimed at embarrassing the POTUS...not furthering the investigation.

I can't argue with you there... sadly political sentiment seems to be muddying what could have been addressed long ago. Opportunism and expedience are a political mainstay strategy. The media enjoys exacerbating the fractious nature of the conflict.

I have no doubt that were the 'political' tables reversed (if you can believe that generally possible) this argument would be exactly the same.

Yet, as I stated when people complained about scrutiny on Bush - and the answers came - "but what about when Clinton did it?" ... and the scrutiny on Clinton was met with ... " but what about when Bush Sr. did it?" and so on and so on... the only victims in the scenario are those who want to know the truth... not those who already know what that truth is.

All of this may already have been resolved for all we know... distraction being a major component of political theater.. and we won't know until a deal becomes evident.... in which case I will be hating all political theater as much as I do now.... because it never changes with these people... party notwithstanding.

It's never a "fault" - no one is ever "wrong" . and all transgressions are 'malleable' to political negotiation.

I suppose in the end this would proceed quite differently if the rules of engagement actually applied to the players.