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Obama asserts executive privilege on Fast and Furious documents

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posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by Aktivate
Now we are finally witness to the power NDAA and simialr acts will give to our tyrant of a President. The last thing he needs is another 4 years to assert that power and restrict US freedoms any further.

If Obama can get away with witholding information like this with no public outcry, what else will he pull knowing very well he can hide behind his executive privelages?


A Wag the Dog solution to pull these scandals off the front page has probably been

discussed but i don't see them doing it. Too many people are watching them like

a hawk.

------------
Remember when Bill Clinton dropped a bomb on Sudan?

That was when the Lewinsky scandal broke.




posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:01 PM
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Originally posted by queenofswords

......

It seems to me that this administration took advantage of the program and created a crisis with it. This is the "never-let-a-good-crisis-go-to-waste" administration, isn't it?



Actually that paradigm is omnipresent in politics - which is all about expedient exploitation of sentiment. Frankly, it's a favored tool all over the world where certain people are said to "govern" over others... the big sell-out of popular media and the virtual disemboweling of journalism seals the deal.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


Why do you and the media keep trying to confuse the issues in order to blame Bush or somehow try to downplay what occured? All the info from below can be found in the 2 links. Both links go to wikipedia so please use the bottom source references if you question any of the information.

Hopefully this wil give people a better understanding of the entire situation, from 2006 up until now.

Project Gunrunner - started 2006 - The overall operations which include Wide Receiver as well as Fast and Furious, among other gunrunning operations.
Operation Wide Receiver

Operation Wide Receiver - 2006 / 2007 - Bush administration -
- Under this project guns were sold to people who then smuggled them back into Mexico. This operation was known to the US as well as the Mexican governments and had cooperation between law enforcement on both sides as well as a working relationship with the gun dealers and ATF. The weapons were bought in the US and were interdicted by Mexican Police once they crossed, which is a requirement for weapons stings.


Operation Fast and Furious - 2009 - Obama administration -
- Under fast and furious the agents in charge ignored policies by allowing the guns to walk without being intercepted. Their Mexican counterparts were never kept in the loop on this new operation.

The criteria in place for Project Gunrunner (affects ALL gunwalking operations) -

Their standard Project Gunrunner training was to follow the straw purchasers to the hand-off to the cartel buyers, then arrest both parties and seize the guns.


What occured in Fast and Furious -
- Departure from the requirement of interdiction, instead giving way to allowing the guns to make it across the border in order to track high level cartel members. The problem -

The strategy of targeting high-level individuals, which was already ATF policy, would be implemented by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix field division. In order to accomplish it, the office decided to use "gunwalking" as laid out in a January 2010 briefing paper. This was said to be allowed under ATF regulations and given legal backing by U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona Dennis K. Burke. It was additionally approved and funded by a Justice Department task force.[3] However, long-standing DOJ and ATF policy has required arms shipments to be intercepted.[4][5]


The initial objections by the Agents -

The tactic of letting guns walk, rather than interdicting them and arresting the buyers, led to controversy within the ATF.[5][32] As the case continued, several members of Group VII, including John Dodson and Olindo Casa, became increasingly upset at the tactic of allowing guns to walk. Their standard Project Gunrunner training was to follow the straw purchasers to the hand-off to the cartel buyers, then arrest both parties and seize the guns. They watched guns being bought illegally and stashed on a daily basis, while their supervisors, including David Voth and Hope MacAllister, prevented the agents from intervening.[3]


How the agent in charge of Fast and Furious viewed the complaints -

Responding to the disagreements, Voth wrote an email in March 2010: "I will be damned if this case is going to suffer due to petty arguing, rumors, or other adolescent behavior. I don’t know what all the issues are but we are all adults, we are all professionals, and we have an exciting opportunity to use the biggest tool in our law enforcement tool box. If you don’t think this is fun you are in the wrong line of work – period!”[3][33]


December 2010 - Border Patrol agent Brian Terry is killed by a weapon linked to fast and furious.

Begining of a coverup
- May 3, Attorney General Holder testified to the House Judiciary Committee that he did not know who approved Fast and Furious.

- ATF Agent Vince Cefalu, who helped to publicize Fast and Furious, was served with termination papers.

- U.S. Attorney Burke announced his resignation after being questioned by Congressional investigators.

- In October, documents were found showing that Attorney General Holder had been sent briefings on Fast and Furious as early as July 2010, contradicting his May statement that he had known about it for only a few weeks.

- Attorney General Holder stated for the first time in Congressional testimony that "gunwalking" was used in Fast and Furious. He further stated that his office had inaccurately described the program in previous letters sent to Congress, but that this was unintentional. Reiterating previous testimony, he said that he and other top officials had been unaware that the "gunwalking" tactic was being used. Holder stated that his staff had not showed him memos about the program, and he denied any personal wrongdoing.[66][67][68]

The theory you found crazy and ignored -
- In December, documents revealed that some ATF agents discussed using Fast and Furious to provide anecdotal cases to support controversial new gun rules. The regulation, called Demand Letter 3, would require some gun stores to report the sale of multiple rifles.

- January, Patrick Cunningham, who was the criminal division chief at the Phoenix office of the U.S. Attorney's Office for the District of Arizona and has since resigned, asserted his innocence and his constitutional right against self-incrimination to avoid testifying.

- The ATF's "gunwalking" operations were deliberately kept secret from the Mexican government, even after related firearms began to be found at violent crime scenes and in criminal arsenals in 2010 and 2011. When they were told in January 2011 that there was an undercover program in existence, they still were not given details.

The entire Fast and Furious debacle is illegal.
The people who thought it up are now covering it up because of the ramifications.
The reason Holder keeps refusing to provide the documents is beyond me, although I am assuming he is part of the coverup and knew about it and most likely discussed gun control laws based on the actions and intentional failure of this operation.

US and Mexican laws were broke.
People have been killed on both sides because of fast and furious.
Here we are, over 2 years later, and there is no one being held responsible or charged for it.
edit on 22-6-2012 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by Eurisko2012
reply to post by Indigo5
 


Your BS won't work on me.

Try it on the other ATS members.

---------
We all know the truth. You are wasting your time.

They laughed at Carney when he tried the same trick you are trying here on ATS.

The truth will be revealed eventually.

Obama is just delaying the inevitable.

He will go down in history as the worst president we have ever had.



you know the truth? no you don't
obama knowing how the right-wing jumps on crap like this without doing the required research, is setting the GOP up. for you right-wingers with short memories, remember the shirley sherrod (supposed) scandal?...the one where doctored footage was played over and over by FOX NEWS...
the left just let's the paranoia run, all the while setting back and letting actual members of congress come out on taped video saying they believe this crap too...but, you are right on thing....Obama is just delaying the inevitable



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Yes, Rush Limbaugh just mentioned on his website that there are 2 dormant years

between Wide Receiver and Fast & Furious.

-----------
This smoke screen isn't going to work.

They need to come up with something better.


----------

I got it !!! - It depends what the word is....is. - Try that one.

edit on 22-6-2012 by Eurisko2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by jimmyx
 


And don't forget Holder lied under oath.

But i really don't think he even cares at all.

He knows he has a sure thing Obama presidential pardon in his back pocket.

--------

Go ahead and lie !



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 




US and Mexican laws were broke. People have been killed on both sides because of fast and furious. Here we are, over 2 years later, and there is no one being held responsible or charged for it.

And we have a President and Attorney General lying and stonewalling.

Coverup.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Xcathdra
 




US and Mexican laws were broke. People have been killed on both sides because of fast and furious. Here we are, over 2 years later, and there is no one being held responsible or charged for it.

And we have a President and Attorney General lying and stonewalling.

Coverup.


------------

It sounds a lot like the Clinton Administration.

Stonewall.....stonewall....stonewall........OOPS got busted for perjury.






edit on 22-6-2012 by Eurisko2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by Indigo5
 


Why do you and the media keep trying to confuse the issues in order to blame Bush or somehow try to downplay what occured? All the info from below can be found in the 2 links. Both links go to wikipedia so please use the bottom source references if you question any of the information.

Hopefully this wil give people a better understanding of the entire situation, from 2006 up until now.

Project Gunrunner - started 2006 - The overall operations which include Wide Receiver as well as Fast and Furious, among other gunrunning operations.
Operation Wide Receiver

Operation Wide Receiver - 2006 / 2007 - Bush administration -
- Under this project guns were sold to people who then smuggled them back into Mexico. This operation was known to the US as well as the Mexican governments and had cooperation between law enforcement on both sides as well as a working relationship with the gun dealers and ATF. The weapons were bought in the US and were interdicted by Mexican Police once they crossed, which is a requirement for weapons stings.


Please support that claim...

Your link above states...



The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[23] With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[24] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s.

The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]

At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made




edit on 22-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by Eurisko2012
reply to post by jimmyx
 


And don't forget Holder lied under oath.

But i really don't think he even cares at all.

He knows he has a sure thing Obama presidential pardon in his back pocket.

--------

Go ahead and lie !


Curiosity is getting the better of me here. Can a President who has been impeached, actually pardon anyone?

Curiosity...or wishful thinking...

Des



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra

Operation Fast and Furious - 2009 - Obama administration -
- Under fast and furious the agents in charge ignored policies by allowing the guns to walk without being intercepted. Their Mexican counterparts were never kept in the loop on this new operation.

The criteria in place for Project Gunrunner (affects ALL gunwalking operations) -

Their standard Project Gunrunner training was to follow the straw purchasers to the hand-off to the cartel buyers, then arrest both parties and seize the guns.


What occured in Fast and Furious -
- Departure from the requirement of interdiction, instead giving way to allowing the guns to make it across the border in order to track high level cartel members. The problem -

The strategy of targeting high-level individuals, which was already ATF policy, would be implemented by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF's Phoenix field division.


Same man who ran operation Wide Receiver...Holder has testified 9 times...how many times has Issa called Newell to testify? Just wondering as that would seem the logical avenue if this was an actual investigation verse political witch hunt.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 




Did any U.S. Border Agents get killed under operation Wide Receiver....just sayin'...

Des



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by Destinyone

Originally posted by Eurisko2012
reply to post by jimmyx
 


And don't forget Holder lied under oath.

But i really don't think he even cares at all.

He knows he has a sure thing Obama presidential pardon in his back pocket.

--------

Go ahead and lie !


Curiosity is getting the better of me here. Can a President who has been impeached, actually pardon anyone?

Curiosity...or wishful thinking...

Des


Yes.

Bill Clinton was impeached by the House of Representatives and then later

pardoned Marc Rich. Remember?



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by Destinyone
reply to post by Indigo5
 




Did any U.S. Border Agents get killed under operation Wide Receiver....just sayin'...

Des


Two agents have died by gunfire during the time Wide Receiver started and F&F ended.

In only one of those circumstances was a weapon recovered.

So the answer is we don't know, but that would seem an unimportant question since those guns...both F&F and Wide-Receiver are still out there and only the future will tell how many people, primarily Mexicans will die by the trigger of those weapons.

F&F needs a real investigation...not this political show. Issa is doing a diservice to anyone that genuinely thinks this should be investigated.

Newell was the agent in charge for both F&F and WIde Receiver...Holder has testified 9 times....has Newell been called to testify?

Political show...not investigation.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by Eurisko2012
 


But...didn't Clinton beat impeachment....


What I mean, is can a President who is impeached and *removed* from office pardon anyone. I'd think not.

Des




edit on 22-6-2012 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 03:06 PM
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Originally posted by Destinyone

Curiosity is getting the better of me here. Can a President who has been impeached, actually pardon anyone?

Curiosity...or wishful thinking...

Des


Impeachment is similair to indictment.

A President who is impeached (but not removed from office) is still President and can pardon people.

A President who is impeached AND sucessfully removed from office..is not President and cannot pardon people.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by Destinyone
reply to post by Eurisko2012
 


But...didn't Clinton beat impeachment....


What I mean, is can a President who is impeached and *removed* from office pardon anyone. I'd think not.

Des




edit on 22-6-2012 by Destinyone because: (no reason given)



If Clinton would have been removed by the US Senate then no.

He couldn't pardon anyone.
--------
Usually it's the VP who suddenly becomes President starts handing out the

pardons. Remember Nixon and Ford?



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 03:13 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 





Issa wants to talk to O’Reilly because O’Reilly maintained a personal relationship with Phoenix ATF agent-in-charge Bill Newell and had direct communication with Newell regarding Operation Fast & Furious, the program that let some 2,000 guns from dealers cooperating with ATF flow directly into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. Emails indicate that Newell was keeping O’Reilly briefed about the operation and that O’Reilly was briefing others in the White House, but investigators would like to know who O’Reilly was sharing this information with – which is, of course, the obvious reason the White House would reject Issa’s request; that they do not want O’Reilly revealing who was in his information loop.


all you have to do is type your questions into google to find the answer...

Source

Sometimes though you have to hurry up before they get wiped off the internet...





October 1, 2011 - Townhall.com (Katie Pavlich) - In the first bombshell a map has been found attached to an email sent by William Newell to the White House. The map shows where Fast and Furious guns were recovered in Mexico. William Newell has testified that "we never let guns walk" and the White House has denied any knowledge of guns being sent to Mexico. This map is strong evidence that those statements were false.


Source



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 03:13 PM
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Well folks...the "voice in the wilderness" thing is getting old on this thread.

I do feel I have responded directly to posts, while at the same time haven't had questions answered or factual evidence acknowledged by most. Generally my posts have been ignored rather than rebutted...and when rebutted, often in the form of one liner, unsupported emotive "Obama's a dictator" nonsense.

Absent legitimate debate, I'll let this thread return to the echo-chamber, as I am sure you folks will feel relieved.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


Your friends on this thread need you...Fast & Furious: A Radical Racist GOP Witch Hunt that was started by Bush?



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