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Obama asserts executive privilege on Fast and Furious documents

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posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 



It was a clusterEf of epic proportions. It started under Pres. Bush and continued under the Obama administration.


I wish you would pick up on this one..... F&F did not exist while President Bush was in office, it began well after President Obama's inauguration.

ATF Gunwalking scandal

From the link:

2009–2011: Operation Fast and Furious On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. Participating in the meeting were Deputy Attorney General David W. Ogden, Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, ATF Director Kenneth E. Melson, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Michele Leonhart, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Robert Mueller and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states. They decided on a strategy to identify and eliminate entire arms trafficking networks rather than low-level buyers.[3][28][29] Those at the meeting did not suggest using the "gunwalking" tactic, but ATF supervisors would soon use it in an attempt to achieve the desired goals.[30] The effort, beginning in November, would come to be called Operation Fast and Furious for the successful film franchise, because some of the suspects under investigation operated out of an auto repair store and street raced


Seriously, you keep tagging the Bush Administration with F&F, and it isn't true.
There were 'gunwalking' operations done during the Bush Administration, but they were operated and controlled differently, to the end that they didn't result in the deaths of American agents and citizens.


edit on 22-6-2012 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)


It's their new talking point strategy.

Try to confuse the general public by joining the 2 separate programs into 1.

Then just declare the whole thing a mistake.
-------

Deny any claim that there is an Anti 2nd Amendment Agenda responsible for

the death of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry.

--------
It won't work. We all know Brian Terry died on Obamas watch.

We all know the strategy was to smear the gun dealers and attack the 2nd Amendment.




posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 



Unfortunately Issa isn't focused on finding out how this happened or how to prevent it from happening in the future. He isn't drilling down on the ATF who thought up this nonsense and golding those folks accountable...nope....

um.. Im pretty sure thats what the House Committee is doing, no? They are on the committee for a reason.. to WORK FOR THE PEOPLE! They are doing what they can do get to the bottom of it.. and being impeded by Obama and Holder!


asking for communications between WhiteHouse officials AFTER the crapstorm hit in the media and the operation had long eneded is not only fishing for election year political ammunition, it is a diservice to Brian Terry and the Mexicans that have died as a result. It is pure partisan political hackery


Sorry, wrong! again YOU have no idea what is in those documents! It may have information that could describe true accountability to certain people. but they are hidden.. FOR A REASON!. I see people like you who feel like thise hidden information is totally cool and shouldnt be questioned is doing a diservice to Brian Terry... How can you say that its ok to not show these documents when they may relate to who is responsible for a mans DEATH?! Honestly dude!
Furthermore, finding the truth out is 'pure partisan political hackery'?? please explain?


What we have now in requesting communications between Whitehouse officials after the investigation began is for pure political purposes in an election year. It is a "cover-up", but it is a "cover-up" of deliberations about how the investigation is going to impact the administration and how they should respond to the media-storm.

Again, they are trying to investigate the truth, as that is what their job is as the PEOPLES REPS, Also, how could you know that there isn;t any admission of guilt or relevant evidence in talking about how they should respond to the media?

For example, maybe something like this...
Holder - "Hey Obama, remember all that fast and furious stuff that we talked about... remember? The program that you said, 'meh, okay go for it'... well turns out the caught us"
Obama - "Oh yeah.. that # again... hmmm since you've lied quite a few times infront of that committee, maybe we should think about containing the documents"
Holder- "Good call boss-man... stupid citizens and that stupid congress is on a need to know basis, and they don't need to know about this #..."

Obvioulsy, it wouldn't be that blatant (or could it?!?!).. Fact is WE WON'T KNOW! yet, you defend the fact that Obama did this as if its all good.. Do you not care about bringing those responsible to justice?



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 
Will you acknowledge that Fast and Furious did not occur during the Bush Administration?

As you claimed here:
your post




And this logic doesn't work. If you have nothing to hide, then.... The investigation into Fast and Furious is warranted and absolutely neccessary. It was a clusterEf of epic proportions. It started under Pres. Bush and continued under the Obama administration.


You come back saying that I hope no one visits the link I posted..... WTF would I have posted it for? I asked you to look!

The operations under Bush were done very differently than the way Fast and Furious was handled.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by Eurisko2012
 


ATF Gunwalking scandal



During Operation Fast and Furious, dozens of semiautomatic AK-variants might be purchased in one day.[1]
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) ran a series of "gunwalking" sting operations[2][3] between 2006[4] and 2011.[2][5]

This was done under the umbrella of Project Gunrunner, a project intended to stem the flow of firearms into Mexico by indicting straw purchasers and gun traffickers within the United States.[6] "Gunwalking" or "letting guns walk" was a tactic whereby the ATF knowingly allowed thousands of guns to be bought by suspected arms traffickers ("gunrunners") working through straw purchasers on behalf of Mexican drug cartels.[7]


See ATF Doc from 2008
www.atf.gov...



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


Your BS won't work on me.

Try it on the other ATS members.

---------
We all know the truth. You are wasting your time.

They laughed at Carney when he tried the same trick you are trying here on ATS.

The truth will be revealed eventually.

Obama is just delaying the inevitable.

He will go down in history as the worst president we have ever had.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 


I say Hogwash...




Gunrunner: Eric Holder forced to retract statement about George Bush’s involvement in Fast and Furious


So urce

I'm only interested in facts...Not defending Bush.

Indgio5 you may want to checkout this thread if this topic has your attention...
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 
Will you acknowledge that Fast and Furious did not occur during the Bush Administration?


In as much as both operation "Wide Receiver" and "Fast and Furious" were both Gun-Walking operations run by the same people and the same ATF office in AZ using the same methods...sure F&F and Wide Reciever have different names?

You can split hairs and say since operation "F&F" began under the Obama administration...While disregarding that the same agents, tactics, same office and same gun-walking were all involved in "Wide Receiver", but for the purposes of actually investigating the tactic...doesn't that seem particularly political?

And that is my point. Are we limiting the investigation to just what occured under the Obama administration? Or should we be investigating the ATF Gun-Walking? Cuz...Gun-Walking began during the Bush years...



The operations under Bush were done very differently than the way Fast and Furious was handled.


HOW?....again your link



2006–2007: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes

The suspicious sale of AR-15s led to Operation Wide Receiver.

The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007.

Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.

With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border", Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation. These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s.

The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.

At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made.

After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009 and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011, nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms. As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.

Another, smaller probe occurred in 2007 under the same ATF Phoenix field division. It began when the ATF identified Mexican suspects who bought weapons from a Phoenix gun shop over a span of several months. The probe ultimately involved over 200 guns, a dozen of which were lost in Mexico. On September 27, 2007, ATF agents saw the original suspects buying weapons at the same store and followed them toward the Mexican border. The ATF informed the Mexican government when the suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations. No charges were filed. Newell, who was special agent in charge from June 2006 to May 2011, would later play a major role in Operation Fast and Furious.


SO how was it run differently....Newell headed up both "Gun-Walking" ops...

Maybe answer me this, cuz I don't honestly know, Holder has testified 9 times in the investigation...

Has Newell testified?

Tell me again that this investigation isn't political?



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:13 PM
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“Wide Receiver” was a small, local, contained operation based in Tucson AZ. Guns Were TRACKED, criminal cartel members were ARRESTED. ATF stopped the operation when they realized the guns had gotten out of sight.
“Fast and Furious” was conducted in several cities, guns were NEVER tracked and never INTENDED to be tracked or controlled. F&F was planned as a maneuver to get American guns into the news as the cause of tragic murders and crimes in Mexico, thus to force American citizens through guilt to relinquish more and more of our GOD-GIVEN SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS TO SELF-PROTECTION AGAINST GOVERNMENT TYRANNY.
I thank God for the eagle-eyes at SipseySreetIrregulars.com, who first broke this story and forced it into the “mainstream media.”



For those that don't read the links to sources...



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by relocator
reply to post by Indigo5
 


I say Hogwash...




Gunrunner: Eric Holder forced to retract statement about George Bush’s involvement in Fast and Furious


So urce

I'm only interested in facts...Not defending Bush.

Indgio5 you may want to checkout this thread if this topic has your attention...
www.abovetopsecret.com...


If you are interested in facts then you might have noticed this if you followed the link in the spin piece you linked to....Holder didn't retract his statement on Gun-Walking under Bush...only acknowledged that no docs showed that Bush's AG was aware of it...but then again there isn't an investigation into Gun-Walking during the Bush years (Operation Wide Reciever), so who knows what the docs would show....smell the political hackery in this investigation yet? Wouldn't it be nice if it was focused on actual Gun-Walking and those responsible?



If you want to talk about Fast and Furious, I’m the Attorney General that put an end to the misguided tactics that were used in Fast and Furious. An Attorney General who I suppose you would hold in higher regard was briefed on these kinds of tactics in an operation called Wide Receiver and did nothing to stop them – nothing. Three hundred guns, at least, walked in that instance.



This is a serious charge. However, as far as I’m aware, the Justice Department has produced nothing to date that indicates any former Attorney General was briefed on Operation Wide Receiver.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 
Wide receiver involved hundreds of guns.

Fast and Furious apparently involved thousands of guns. Wish the Obama Administration would let us know all the facts. No reason not to tell us, since it is all Bush's fault according to Obama, his flunkies and his......

Cheerleaders.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by relocator





“Wide Receiver” was a small, local, contained operation based in Tucson AZ. Guns Were TRACKED, criminal cartel members were ARRESTED. ATF stopped the operation when they realized the guns had gotten out of sight.


For those that don't read the links to sources...


For those that brutalize facts...

"Wide Receiver" involved RFID Chips with a maximum battery life of 36 hours, were crammed into small drilled holes which thus limited range significantly....and by everyone's admission...most, if not all of those guns were lost.

As far as "ARRESTED"? Geez...who did that?



Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.

At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made.

After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver in September 2009 and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011, nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms.[18] As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.


en.wikipedia.org...


Dishonesty makes this discussion very difficult
edit on 22-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by butcherguy
 


Thanks for completely disregarding my last post and moving the goalposts...

Like I said...why bother debating when folks won't acknowledge facts.
edit on 22-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 

You are making the argument that this is a political witch hunt.

I still have to ask. Why did Holder lie to the Senate committee repeatedly?
What is Obama hiding?



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo5
reply to post by butcherguy
 


Thanks for completely disregarding my last post and moving the goalposts...

Like I said...why bother debating when folks won't acknowledge facts.
edit on 22-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

You asked what was different.

You don't find anything different about taking a program involving hundreds of weapons ( which you say lost track of virtually all of the weapons) that was not a good thing and doing it again to the tune of thousands of weapons?

That's different. Kind of like licking the windows of the short bus different, IMO.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by relocator



“Wide Receiver” was a small, local, contained operation based in Tucson AZ. Guns Were TRACKED, criminal cartel members were ARRESTED. ATF stopped the operation when they realized the guns had gotten out of sight.
“Fast and Furious” was conducted in several cities, guns were NEVER tracked and never INTENDED to be tracked or controlled. F&F was planned as a maneuver to get American guns into the news as the cause of tragic murders and crimes in Mexico, thus to force American citizens through guilt to relinquish more and more of our GOD-GIVEN SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS TO SELF-PROTECTION AGAINST GOVERNMENT TYRANNY.
I thank God for the eagle-eyes at SipseySreetIrregulars.com, who first broke this story and forced it into the “mainstream media.”


Don't you just hate it when the good boys do the same things as the bad boys?


Bush signs gun control legislation www.militarytimes.com...

BUSH SIGNS MOST DRACONIAN GUN LAW IN US HISTORY! www.knowthelies.com...

The Bush administration has asked for a $95 million increase in spending on gun control programs for 2005. He has also expressed willingness to renew the Assault Weapons Ban. www.lewrockwell.com...


The UN wants Americans disarmed. The UN wants borders erased. The politicians on both sides of the aisle work for the UN or they are quickly UNelected.
edit on 22-6-2012 by frazzle because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:40 PM
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The more I read and research and the more dots being connected, I can't help but think this whole F&F operation is connected to a ploy to get the U.N. involved in dismantling Americans' Second Amendment Rights.

It seems to me that this administration took advantage of the program and created a crisis with it. This is the "never-let-a-good-crisis-go-to-waste" administration, isn't it?

I think the executive privilege play is nothing but a cover up of this intention.

If it got out to the American people that our government leaders were setting us up in advance of the UN Small Arms Trade Treaty negotiations to limit or obliterate our Second Amendment Right, it would infuriate the populace and could totally bring down this administration and expose its complicity with the UN.



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 

You are making the argument that this is a political witch hunt.

I still have to ask. Why did Holder lie to the Senate committee repeatedly?
What is Obama hiding?


Holder lied and everybody knows it.

"I just heard about all of this a couple weeks ago."


Holder must know he has a sure thing Obama presidential pardon .

Go ahead and lie.

---------
OOPS! I heard about F&F a long time ago. You got me.



edit on 22-6-2012 by Eurisko2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by Indigo5
 



You can split hairs and say since operation "F&F" began under the Obama administration...While disregarding that the same agents, tactics, same office and same gun-walking were all involved in "Wide Receiver", but for the purposes of actually investigating the tactic...doesn't that seem particularly political?

Let's 'split another hair' here.... How many US agents were killed by Wide Receiver weapons?

How many US agents were killed by Fast and Furious weapons?

Darned hairs.

edit on 22-6-2012 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:57 PM
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Now we are finally witness to the power NDAA and simialr acts will give to our tyrant of a President. The last thing he needs is another 4 years to assert that power and restrict US freedoms any further.

If Obama can get away with witholding information like this with no public outcry, what else will he pull knowing very well he can hide behind his executive privelages?



posted on Jun, 22 2012 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5
 



You can split hairs and say since operation "F&F" began under the Obama administration...While disregarding that the same agents, tactics, same office and same gun-walking were all involved in "Wide Receiver", but for the purposes of actually investigating the tactic...doesn't that seem particularly political?

Let's 'split another hair' here.... How many US agents were killed by Wide Receiver weapons?

How many US agents were killed by Fast and Furious weapons?

Darned hairs.

edit on 22-6-2012 by butcherguy because: (no reason given)


Oh, can't we just combine the 2 and then just forget the whole thing?


Thankfully, most Americans are sophisticated enough to see through the

spin doctor smoke screen.



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