Obama asserts executive privilege on Fast and Furious documents

Originally posted by six67seven
what are the odds these 'damaging documents' get shredded, or lost, or are released with every word blacked out except the date, or the building that they are being stored in catches fire and implodes into its own footprint after a couple of hours? well, that's highly unlikely I suppose since no building has ever collapsed into its own footprint due to fire, except that one we don't speak of!

There is always a 'BACKUP' Big Brother(s) generally have come a long way since the audio recordings from Nixon Days

Originally posted by Nspekta
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Certainly juicey stuff I am sure, but NOT within the scope of the investigation and purely politically motivated and aimed at embarrassing the DOJ and White House....as well as being priveldged information.

Why do you say it does not fall within the scope of the investigation? Obviously the investigators think it is, if they asked to see it. Obviously there is something to hide if Obama has used the 'power' to hide the documents...

It is the same as in a legal investigation...Every bit of evidence regarding the actual crime should be fair game...actually a senate investigation has broader scope because there is no judge to disqualify evidence etc.

BUT...One attorney can not ask for communications between the accused and his attorney after the trial begins.

That is privledged.

Holder handed over 7600 pages concerning the operation of fast and furious...Issa (GOP head of the investigation) SPECIFICALLY asked for communications between the White House and Holder AFTER the investigation began....long after Fast and Furious ceased and the media storm had begun.

If there was White House involvement during the years Fast and Furious was in operation...they would be in the docs Holder has turned over already as requested.

Why ask for the communications that were a result of the Senate Investigation? Because they will likely involve election/political observations..."this scandal is going to hurt us"..."The media is saying X"...etc. etc. etc. etc.

All of which will provide the GOP with Campaign Season ammunition and material to be selectively spun, truncated to cast President Obama and Holder in the worst light, but none of it will shed any light on Fast and Furious beyond what has been already released.

If the President sets this precident, future Presidents will be equally vulnerable and required to make those strategy oriented conversations available to the opposition. It is not relevant. It is political fishing for campaign purposes.

F&F was clusterF...and it started under the Bush Administration and continued under the Obama administration...but it was a ground level operation and Niether Bush or Obama were aware or running those operations...the rest is politics.

Asking for White House communications regarding the Senate Investigation...not the actual F&F clusterF is out of bounds and clearly fishing.

What do you know that we don't that allows you to say this? To me its absolutely relevant! Do you really think its ok for Obama to hold back potentially crucial documents that may lead back to the White house and Obama being involved/having knowledge of F&F?!

No...but if there was evidence of White House involvement...those communications would have happened before the begining of the senate hearing...AFTER the Senate hearing you can damn well bet there was white house involvement! And the GOP Senate is over-reaching asking for those specific communications. It is a breach of balance of powers.

How about Chairman Issa release all of his cell records, transcripts of every conversation he has had privately, emails and strategy docs relating to any conversations he has had with Boehner, the RNC and GOP leadership about Fast and Furous and the hearing investigations?? Would that be fair game? Cuz I am sure thier is some juicey stuff in those records as well...

Political fishing for campaign purposes.

Originally posted by Pervius
The Fast & Furious scandal is a Psyop to get the public away from the fact Obama sold China the LRAD weapon.

They dont have to go through POTUS for that technology. They can approach LRAD Corp in San Diego directly and/or place their operatives as employees/hackers and/or equipment

Originally posted by Indigo5
All of which would be included in the Documents spanning the dates between when Fast and Furious began and when the investigation began.

The documents that they are refusing to turn over to the committee. People need to keep in mind that when this investigation starte over a year + ago, the AG's office intially stated there was no such program in place. From that point the DOJ has lied / mislead / ommitted information while reporting to the committee.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Agreed wholeheartedly. But that is not what they are investigating, despite the facade...see above...Political fishing.

It is what they are investigating. They are looking to find out who started this program, who oversaw it, who knew what and when in terms of massive amounts of guns crossing the border and why they werent stopped. The actions during this program resulted in the death of a US Border PAtrol Agent not to mention a large number of Mexican Nationals. The criminal actions are being investigated by the DOJ and the leadership actions are being investigated by the committee. They are investigating a possible coverup, which is the main reason for asking for emails / communications. The AG testified that he had no knwoledge of this program and the same was said by Obama. If the documents say otherwise then why the coverup and is there more that is not known? If its an investigation that has gone wrong, why hide?

Originally posted by Indigo5
Not sure where that originates? Because according to both Issa's request and Holder's response...this is in regards to events post investigation and post Fast and Furious.

Holder was suppose to sit down with Issa and a couple of others on the committee to receive a personal briefing and the subpoenad documents from over a year ago that the AG refuses to turn over. Because those documents were never turned over, the contempt vote at the committee level occured.

If all documents requested were turned over there never would have been need for invoking executive priviledge.

The other legal battle thats coming is the invoking of executive priviledge. That priviledge cannot be used to conceal wrong doing / illegal activity and so far what occured in the operation was very much illegal.

Going back to my theory I am curious if this entire program and the manner it was carried out in was a step to change public opposition to tighter gun control restrictions. They tried it once with Rep.. Giffords when she was shot.

I am wondering if communications exist at the political level discussing how to manipulate / exploit the situation? It makes sense with the hardline approach on getting those documents.

Originally posted by jimmyx
reply to post by phantomjack

 

hard work??...ok, i'll tell you what...i'll fire you, spread the work you did onto others, and keep your salary for myself....phewwww!!!!...boy!...i am tired from all that hard work!!

edit on 21-6-2012 by jimmyx because: structure

You obviously don't know how the venture capital system works.

Is that all you have? Bain Capital? You are so naive.

No, lets let a poor starving company continue to run itself into the ground...where NOBODY gets a return on their investment, OR, salvage it, and sell off the assets so that the investors get 10 cents on the dollar instead of nothing. Yeah, that makes good sense there Bro.

Do you have a 401K? I doubt it, based on your moronic response.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by butcherguy
A question for those still drinking the koolaid:

If, as a few of you have posted, the gunrunning was started by the Bush Administration.....

Why sit on the paperwork, risking contempt of Congress and make the President look like Nixon, invoking executive privilege?

Why not treat it like the ECONOMY, and tell the American people that 'It is all Bush's fault'?

Holder has released almost 10,000 pages of documents and every bit of information requested by the GOP that pertains to the start of the Gun Walking scandal up until when the operation ended and hit the news and the senate investigation began...everything they asked for.

Now they have requested emails and correspondance with regards to how the DOJ and White House discussed the investigation, it's implications, likely outcome, political costs etc.

Certainly juicey stuff I am sure, but NOT within the scope of the investigation and purely politically motivated and aimed at embarrassing the DOJ and White House....as well as being priveldged information.

If the White House releases this....then future Presidents will not be able to have candid conversations with thier advisors and a department heads....it is not relevant to the investigation...it is fishing.

During the Bush years...Boehner literally led the entire GOP to walk off the floor in protest calling the Democrats asking for docs related to the Valerie Plame incident nothing more than a "fishing expedition" for political purposes.

edit on 21-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

Valerie Plame? Are you serious? You are going to compare the outing of a CIA agent -- revealing her name when it was already common knowledge and the fact that she was no longer serving in a critical capacity with the Agency, to selling guns that have killed hundreds? Do you really think the Valerie Plame incident was worthy of comparison, or for that matter, worthy of an investigation? That wasn't politically motivated???????

But the investigation of a dead border patrol agent and finding the truth isnt important?

What kind of distorted world are you living in?

reply to post by Indigo5

How about Chairman Issa release all of his cell records, transcripts of every conversation he has had privately, emails and strategy docs relating to any conversations he has had with Boehner, the RNC and GOP leadership about Fast and Furous and the hearing investigations?? Would that be fair game? Cuz I am sure thier is some juicey stuff in those records as well...

I guess I missed the part where Chairman Issa was running the Fast and Furious operation.

That would make his emails/conversations mean something to the investigation.

Originally posted by Eurisko2012

Originally posted by phantomjack
Does anyone feel like I do, that they wish Bill Clinton was back in office, instead of this Nimrod?

I didn't care for Bill Clinton. But after seeing what Obama has done to this country, Bill was a walk in the park.

Well, if you remember Bill Clinton had a few scandals of his own.

This is a walk down memory lane.

WhiteWater Gate

TravelGate

ZipperGate: Monica Lewinsky - the blue dress

Impeached by the House but not removed by the senate

Pardoning of Marc Rich: Even Stephanopoulos threw a hissy fit over that one.

Oh, I know. And I will never forget. But it seems like a walk in the park compared to the corruption we are looking at now with this administration who are hell bent on destroying MY way of life.

At least with Clinton, we knew what to expect. Obama -- anything is possible with this fraud.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Perhaps actually read the letter Holder sent to the President? As well as the letter that Issa sent to Holder?

Because you are repeating falsehoods that are being put forth by Fox etc.

The contempt charge was directly related to SPECIFIC communications AFTER Fast and Furious hit the media and the investigation commenced.

This isn't my opinion...Chairman Issa specified the same.

As for this being some elaborate plan to undermine the second amendment...that is batsh*& crazy...and rational minds on both sides know it, but it doesn't stop the GOP from trying to exploit that ignorance.

Was Pres. GWB trying to erode the 2nd Amendment when AZ ATF began the Gun-Walking? Or is that another reality you refuse to acknowledge?

Not sure what else to say....keep making unsupported claims that reality disagrees with...it works for FOX, why not here...rack up em stars!

It doesn't change facts...what were the dates requested by Issa's letter?

It is a sad thing to sacrifice rational thought and critical thinking to service a political idealogy. Your own measure of truth should always come first.

Here...maybe if Fox News tells you so you will believe it?

Obama's decision pertains to documents from February 2011 and afterward examining how Justice officials learned about the Fast and Furious probe.

Holder, in his letter to Obama requesting he assert executive privilege, said those documents pertain to the "deliberative process" on how to respond to congressional and media inquiries.

Read more: www.foxnews.com...

Issa's request is for docs POST fast and furious media frenzy......Feb 2011 to present.

Since there seems to be little interest in acknowledging the basic facts...i don't see much use in having a discussion or debate on the matter.

Originally posted by Pervius
The Fast & Furious scandal is a Psyop to get the public away from the fact Obama sold China the LRAD weapon.

President Clinton put sanctions on China for arming Iran. The sanction forbids America from selling weapons to China. Obama got the State Department to declare LRAD "not a weapon" so it could be exported to China.

LRAD is not a speaker. It's a directed energy weapon firing two signals out of phase that come together at point "A" to create sound. China now has our sound weapon technology.

That's why you are seeing this Psyop over some rifles to Mexico.

doubtful. LRAD corp has been selling the tech for years, and to some far more suspicious places than china.

new york busted theres out on occupy not too long ago.

Originally posted by phantomjack

Valerie Plame? Are you serious? You are going to compare the outing of a CIA agent -- revealing her name when it was already common knowledge and the fact that she was no longer serving in a critical capacity with the Agency, to selling guns that have killed hundreds? Do you really think the Valerie Plame incident was worthy of comparison, or for that matter, worthy of an investigation? That wasn't politically motivated???????

But the investigation of a dead border patrol agent and finding the truth isnt important?

What kind of distorted world are you living in?

When did I say that the F&F investigation wasn't warranted? You seem to be mildly deluded.

I explained that YES...Boehner led the entire GOP to walk off the floor when the house pressed for documents that ultimately proved Scooter Libby, a Bush Official outed a CIA agent...that was no big deal?

While Issa asking for communications that don't involve the F&F time period is a big deal?

WTF?

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5

 

How about Chairman Issa release all of his cell records, transcripts of every conversation he has had privately, emails and strategy docs relating to any conversations he has had with Boehner, the RNC and GOP leadership about Fast and Furous and the hearing investigations?? Would that be fair game? Cuz I am sure thier is some juicey stuff in those records as well...

I guess I missed the part where Chairman Issa was running the Fast and Furious operation.

That would make his emails/conversations mean something to the investigation.

You don't think Issa's motivations and resultant line of inquirey are relevant to the actual investigation? They ARE the investigation!

They are as relevant as the communications between Justice and the WhiteHouse AFTER F&F was over and was a media crapstorm.

Both would reveal political mechanations...but niether would shed light on F&F.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
Darn shame Nixon didn't think to use this trick. Dick Cheney must be beside himself with joy at how his idea for a unitary executive is now the supreme power with no checks or balances from the legislative or judicial branches of government.

he did.

check out US. v. Nixon.

Originally posted by phantomjack

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by Eurisko2012

 

So you feel comfortable supporting and voting for a war monger. Great.

You have no clue if Romney would lower the unemployment rate. Presidents do not control the economy. Anyone who is running for president will claim they will lower it, to sucker people like you into voting for them.

A magical unemployment prediction rate that Romney pulled out of thin air holds more weight to you than human lives.

Your view on this is appalling. No wonder why the USA is crashing.

edit on 20-6-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

Um, do you mean like how Obama promised to lower the Unemployment rate? Joe Biden, 2010: "we are going to create 500,000 new jobs per month!"

Do you meant Obama who sent troops into Libya without congressional approval?

Do you mean the magical unemployment rate that Obama predicted?

Are you on crack?

I am not going to waste my time citing sources, as this is all common knowledge that apparently only conservatives have heard for the last 3.5 years.

Presidents DO in fact control the economy -- they create an atmosphere that allows business to flourish, or, they create an atmosphere that causes businesses to clamp down on hiring. PERIOD.

If you do not understand that principal, then you have serious issues.

creating an atmosphere is influence, not control.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5

 

How about Chairman Issa release all of his cell records, transcripts of every conversation he has had privately, emails and strategy docs relating to any conversations he has had with Boehner, the RNC and GOP leadership about Fast and Furous and the hearing investigations?? Would that be fair game? Cuz I am sure thier is some juicey stuff in those records as well...

I guess I missed the part where Chairman Issa was running the Fast and Furious operation.

That would make his emails/conversations mean something to the investigation.

You don't think Issa's motivations and resultant line of inquirey are relevant to the actual investigation? They ARE the investigation!

They are as relevant as the communications between Justice and the WhiteHouse AFTER F&F was over and was a media crapstorm.

Both would reveal political mechanations...but niether would shed light on F&F.

edit on 21-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

You mean the communications where we might hear Obama say, 'We need to cover this up.' ? Or maybe, 'We need to find another way to get guns out of the hands of the population.'

Would that be relevant?

Originally posted by phantomjack

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by butcherguy
A question for those still drinking the koolaid:

If, as a few of you have posted, the gunrunning was started by the Bush Administration.....

Why sit on the paperwork, risking contempt of Congress and make the President look like Nixon, invoking executive privilege?

Why not treat it like the ECONOMY, and tell the American people that 'It is all Bush's fault'?

Holder has released almost 10,000 pages of documents and every bit of information requested by the GOP that pertains to the start of the Gun Walking scandal up until when the operation ended and hit the news and the senate investigation began...everything they asked for.

Now they have requested emails and correspondance with regards to how the DOJ and White House discussed the investigation, it's implications, likely outcome, political costs etc.

Certainly juicey stuff I am sure, but NOT within the scope of the investigation and purely politically motivated and aimed at embarrassing the DOJ and White House....as well as being priveldged information.

If the White House releases this....then future Presidents will not be able to have candid conversations with thier advisors and a department heads....it is not relevant to the investigation...it is fishing.

During the Bush years...Boehner literally led the entire GOP to walk off the floor in protest calling the Democrats asking for docs related to the Valerie Plame incident nothing more than a "fishing expedition" for political purposes.

edit on 21-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

Valerie Plame? Are you serious? You are going to compare the outing of a CIA agent -- revealing her name when it was already common knowledge and the fact that she was no longer serving in a critical capacity with the Agency, to selling guns that have killed hundreds? Do you really think the Valerie Plame incident was worthy of comparison, or for that matter, worthy of an investigation? That wasn't politically motivated???????

But the investigation of a dead border patrol agent and finding the truth isnt important?

What kind of distorted world are you living in?

once you out an agent's identity, it becomes very easy to go back and link them to activities they were professionally involved in.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by Indigo5

 

How about Chairman Issa release all of his cell records, transcripts of every conversation he has had privately, emails and strategy docs relating to any conversations he has had with Boehner, the RNC and GOP leadership about Fast and Furous and the hearing investigations?? Would that be fair game? Cuz I am sure thier is some juicey stuff in those records as well...

I guess I missed the part where Chairman Issa was running the Fast and Furious operation.

That would make his emails/conversations mean something to the investigation.

You don't think Issa's motivations and resultant line of inquirey are relevant to the actual investigation? They ARE the investigation!

They are as relevant as the communications between Justice and the WhiteHouse AFTER F&F was over and was a media crapstorm.

Both would reveal political mechanations...but niether would shed light on F&F.

edit on 21-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

Firstly, you have not seen the documents, have you? So you have no basis for saying they wont shed any light.. Dont pretend that you know what the docs say... Obama hid them for a reason! Im not going to say that Issa has no other agenda, because I don't know and neither do you.. But, Issa IS doing what you are paying him to do.. Trying to determine the truth! But impeded by tyrant obama by executive priviledge. I cant understand why you dont see that this is wrong!!
Ugh..Obama lovers.. Too much koolaid yo

reply to post by notionfreely

You are right, there are other possibilities like you stated. However, the documentation can be offered up with sensitive subjects covered up. We already have these systems in effect. This new system you speak of is not new. The upgrade wouln't even really be news. Protection of a new GPS tracking program would't need that kind of coverup. My opinion only. You are right though, it could be anything and we know nothing. Thanks for the reply, AUTOPROTOLYSIS

The Telegraph

The Fast and Furious scandal is turning into President Obama's Watergate

Fast and furious hasn’t been discussed a lot in the mainstream media, which is why the facts can seem so preposterous when you read them for the first time. But the story is slowly unraveling and the public is catching up with the madness. On Wednesday, the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee voted to hold Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt over his decision to withhold documents related to the “gun walking” operation – documents that President Obama tried to keep secret by invoking executive privilege. The question of why the Prez intervened in this way will surely hang over the investigation and the White House for many months to come. Be patient, conservatives. It took nearly eight months for the Watergate break in to become a national news story. But when it finally did, it toppled a President

Originally posted by Indigo5
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Perhaps actually read the letter Holder sent to the President? As well as the letter that Issa sent to Holder?

Because you are repeating falsehoods that are being put forth by Fox etc.

I have and there are no falsehoods being repeated. By all means though please point out the falsehood and support it.

Originally posted by Indigo5
The contempt charge was directly related to SPECIFIC communications AFTER Fast and Furious hit the media and the investigation commenced.

This isn't my opinion...Chairman Issa specified the same.

Which is what I stated.

Originally posted by Indigo5
As for this being some elaborate plan to undermine the second amendment...that is batsh*& crazy...and rational minds on both sides know it, but it doesn't stop the GOP from trying to exploit that ignorance.

Not really since they tried it with Rep. Giffords incident. This DOJ and Administration takes lying and obfuscation to a whole new level.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Was Pres. GWB trying to erode the 2nd Amendment when AZ ATF began the Gun-Walking? Or is that another reality you refuse to acknowledge?

That operation was with the knowledge of the MExican government and their law enforcement. Secondly Bush is pro gun where as Obama is not, so there is no base for your hypothetical / opinion here.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Not sure what else to say....keep making unsupported claims that reality disagrees with...it works for FOX, why not here...rack up em stars!

Keep towing the Adminstrations line of lie and blame someone else.

Originally posted by Indigo5
It doesn't change facts...what were the dates requested by Issa's letter?

The dates are irrelevent.. Its a congresional hearing, something you seem to be confused about.

Originally posted by Indigo5
It is a sad thing to sacrifice rational thought and critical thinking to service a political idealogy. Your own measure of truth should always come first.

Here...maybe if Fox News tells you so you will believe it?

Obama's decision pertains to documents from February 2011 and afterward examining how Justice officials learned about the Fast and Furious probe.

Holder, in his letter to Obama requesting he assert executive privilege, said those documents pertain to the "deliberative process" on how to respond to congressional and media inquiries.

Read more: www.foxnews.com...

Issa's request is for docs POST fast and furious media frenzy......Feb 2011 to present.

No kidding.. It goes back to the possibility of a coverup. You are conviently ignoring that the a DOJ lawyer origionally told the committee there was no such thing as fast and furious. They lied then and they are lying now, which means the request for documents is valid. The operation violated FEderal Law and there appears to be a coverup in place.

Originally posted by Indigo5
Since there seems to be little interest in acknowledging the basic facts...i don't see much use in having a discussion or debate on the matter.

edit on 21-6-2012 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

I am not ignoring basic facts, that would be you. Maybe you should take your own advice and read the material first before blindly pushing your agenda of defending criminal action and then when you cant attack the facts being posted, you attack the poster.

I see you have that blame game down pat as well as Obama and Holder do. Again, in both of their cases, you are wrong as well. Based on that I see why you are trying to ignore those people who know what they are talking about - you cant refute the truth.