A word on Enlightenment

Originally posted by dominicus
So the next step was, to find out who I am that is not a thought, the real me. Well no matter what conclusion I came to, it always concluded in thought. Well thought is all B.S. super imposed imagination. So basically I rejected all thought, all superimposition, all mind stuff ....and in doing so, there was a shift beyond the mind, beyond I, beyond ego.

Is there a weapon capable of killing this ego?

How do you slay it?

Do you need help?

reply to post by Theophorus


I starred and flagged you in the hope that you were just kidding, yourself. No put intended.

But in the case you're not. I would agree it is pointless but that is not the point. The next step would be complete responsibility, free will, and choice. While you may not obtain "enlightenment", you can choose to improve your life and attitude and change how you feel. If you're here, mind as well be comfortable and happy with yourself and at peace with others (if that's your kinda thing of course). You create your own enlightenment, you find and discover it everyday, IMO, more so if you have an enlightened "view point" or "attitude".

I understand your viewpoint but other people choosing to peruse the path of idea of enlightenment, or lack of, have this or that effect on you.

well I suppose you have to formulate a multi-faceted definition of what enlightenment is, organizing it first into two distinctions; a subjective enlightenment, defined by the interpretation and determination of the individual about what the concept means to them and how it applies in their philosophy, and a somehow objective enlightenment, defined by a universal, palpable set of characteristics that can be pointed to and elucidated, physical and mental.

as follows with degrees of understanding, you have the more rudimentary understanding of enlightenment, resting squarely in the field of the intellectual, which could have both subjective and objective characteristics. then you have the intuitive understanding, which calls on the psycho-spiritual faculties to be developed/cultivated in order to be elucidated. the intuitive understanding can be strengthened and reinforced by an accompanied intellectual understanding, but a merely intellectual grasp of the concept cannot be more deeply implemented into the subjective psyche.

the intellectual understanding can only point to the path conceptually but can never truly encompass it wholly. deepening of the enlightenment to a place of true knowledge must occur through the subjective intuitive will. ironically, the subjective seeking can serve to uncover the more objective, concrete aspects and methods of enlightenment. so one must endeavor a leap of faith through a subjective drive in order to glean the tenets of the objective enlightenment without doubt of their universality of application, otherwise any understanding would be relegated to the mere intellectual.

reply to post by dominicus


Well put. There are two things I would like to offer though. As you mentioned, the process of neti neti leaves us with emptiness. This is not "Oneness" though, and to say it as such is affirmation of the same process of thought that established the concept of duality. "Oneness" is just a philosophical concept supposed about a state of mind that can do no supposition. This is why the Buddha never made any such statements as "we are all one". Instead, he would have said, "all phenomena is empty, even this concept of emptiness is empty." This is also why Advaita Vedanta is considered to be a non-dual (not two) teaching instead of a "oneness" teaching.

Secondly, the concept of awareness being who we truly are is rather misleading. Awareness is the root of all experience. In deep meditation, as the mind slows down, we can see how thoughts appear and then disappear within this awareness, yet the awareness remains. The knowledge that the awareness remains, however, is also just a thought. So to give affirmation that our identity is awareness is again to give affirmation of the same process of thought that established all our other forms of identity. This is why Bodhidharma, when asked who he is, remained quiet and then after repeatedly being asked finally said he does not know. To say awareness is who we truly are because it is permanent is not true. Awareness leaves every night in deep sleep. Permanence is again just another philosophical concept, whereas impermanence can be seen directly right now, with no abstract conceptualization needed.

I would like to continue this discussion with you and Itisnowagain and anyone else interested. Tell me your views on "oneness" and awareness as our permanent identity.

Peace

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife

Is there a weapon capable of killing this ego? How do you slay it? Do you need help?

Its not that its killed or slayed per se. Its more like that there is a seeing that it is not who you are. The ego is still useful for logic/reason, distinguish between red light green light, etc. However, the cause of all the worlds ills is due to the ego and the illusion of separation.

There are later stages where the Ego becomes quiet and basically dissipates and is no more., although I know many would debate me on this, even though I have many book references I can point to, and have myself experienced that this can be so and is headed there.

I saw that the mind has its origin in the heart, It comes out of the heart and into the head when the body wakes up in the morning. ANd when falling asleep, the mind slips back into the heart. There is even scientific studies that show that there are brain neurons that exist in the heart and that the hear can think separately from the brain. Many of the esoteric teachings say that the mind starts and ends in the heart and I've experienced this to be the case in deep meditations.

Interestingly enough eastern orthodox christian monks say this jesus prayer over and over daly millions of times to open the heart center and access the original state prior to the mind, which they say Oneness is there as well.

Other religions like Taoism and some buddhist branches do navel gazing and koans and kundalini and all sorts of methods to reach Oneness.

Do you need help? Well of course..... my help was books, knowledge, self investigation, talking with others about it, prayer, meditations, retreats, satsangs. I've tried it and did it all just about. And really you never know when its gonna hit. I've had ego deaths mystically happen through getting baptized w/ the holy spirit going into me, as well as from reading a simple koan.

However just doing nothing and remaining in a bias bubble of your own making which limits you, well you can have all the fun you want with that, but its limiting and abrasive. These bias bubbles are the cause of the worlds ills

KNOWLEDGE.... is not enlightenment.

KNOWING is like a disease
If you think you KNOW
Then you are truly sick....

Originally posted by dominicus
However just doing nothing and remaining in a bias bubble

If ego death results, as you have said, in sitting their smiling...

Why not just shut up and let it die?

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

Secondly, the concept of awareness being who we truly are is rather misleading. Awareness is the root of all experience. In deep meditation, as the mind slows down, we can see how thoughts appear and then disappear within this awareness, yet the awareness remains. The knowledge that the awareness remains, however, is also just a thought. So to give affirmation that our identity is awareness is again to give affirmation of the same process of thought that established all our other forms of identity. This is why Bodhidharma, when asked who he is, remained quiet and then after repeatedly being asked finally said he does not know. To say awareness is who we truly are because it is permanent is not true. Awareness leaves every night in deep sleep. Permanence is again just another philosophical concept, whereas impermanence can be seen directly right now, with no abstract conceptualization needed. I would like to continue this discussion with you and Itisnowagain and anyone else interested. Tell me your views on "oneness" and awareness as our permanent identity. Peace

Well at least for me, I remember myself to have pre-existed prior to the body. In that pre-existant state, I was pure awareness without concepts and was asked, by other Units of awareness, to come to earth to be born. I had no clue what "born" or "earth" was. Upon further investigation, having a direct experience of myself as this Awareness, solidified in me that this remembrance is correct at least in this stage of my growth on the path.

I understand why Bohdidharma did not want to reply, and eventually said "I do not know" cause any answer is a mind concept illusion. However in Advaita, the boks and masters eventually something to the likes of, its not just Oneness, but includes all of the 4 following: Duality, Non-duality, Both, and None. Which basically includes all of it.

So to distinguish emptiness from Oneness, its hard to wrap my head around that as the words just dont come anywhere close to the actual direct experiences of these things, and at the end they include everything, as well as nothing.

I myself am still investigating all of this, however my experiences of this Emptiness, (which is also a Oneness) comes from 3 shifts.
1. From Mind/I/Ego identity to the Observer(Awareness) of Mind/I/Ego identity
2. From the Observer, there seems to be a vertical drop down into the inner core of me which leads to the Oneness/Emptiness State.
3. In that State, there is no Me anywhere to be found. Everything just is, is One, is empty, etc.

Interestingly I've found other advaita teachers who speak of this vertical drop from the head into the heart or navel. It seems that there are physical correspondence to awareness itself, to Oneness, to Love and selflessness etc.

The Center of Awareness is the Third Eye, and from the third eye center, there is a hollow tube called the Sushumna which drops down and has direct access to the Heart Center and the Navel Center. The Heart Cneter corresponds to Oneness w/ Love and Fullness, while the Navels center corresponds to Oneness with Emptiness as Absolute. This last paragraph I speak from direct experience having directly tasted these things for myself and has completely solidified in my that Yoga can actually lead to Enlightenment, just by becoming aware of aspects of Self and Body, etc.

Originally posted by Theophorus
This goes out to all you New agers.To be enlightened is to be aware. To have an awareness of something, one must have KNOWLEDGE of the existence of that something. In this case that something being enlightenment or awareness which in turn can only be boiled down to knowledge itself.

You can have information or KNOWLEDGE trapped within your genetic codes that ONLY unlocks during certain periods of DARK when LIGHT* is on the HORIZON. With that if TRUE then during periods of DARKNESS or ill periods when darkness mentality RULES the LIGHTS within the genetic codes are made dormant for they would be useless if shared during periods of darkness. BUT when the DARK periods begin to unravel and unfold or END the darkness gets weak. When the darkness gets weak the LIGHT* begins to SHINE AGAIN within MANY. THEY (the enlightened) began to genetically/physically/mentally CONSCIOUSLY CHANGE due to how AWARE they become of the foods digested, pollutions absorbed like FLUORIDE and air particals ect. Meditations began and up kept. SO to conclude the KNOWLEDGE IS dark trapped and genetically hidden UNTIL THE RIGHT TIMES WHEN THE LIGHT CAN SHINE THE BRIGHTEST.

Originally posted by Theophorus
Now, People are finite beings meaning we have limited boundaries. The knowledge we gain is also finite. Point being made is that in our finite state enlightenment is un-obtainable.Anyone looking into there finite self to find infinite knowledge is just kidding themself.

THE HUMAN SOUL/SPIRIT/INTERNAL ENERGY IS ETERNAL* IN ESSENCE and ONLY trapped within a 3d limited body and world DURING PHASES OF LEARNING (here on EA*RTH) within the phases of life and death within EXISTENCE... So the knowledge gained is objective evaluated by those willing to take a objective outlook on how much they know of knowledge and how its shared. Basically saying if YOU CANNOT remember your past lives or experiences and YOU cannot remember knowledge that does not mean that EVERYONE ELSE is also OBJECTIVELY FEELING AS YOU??? SO in REALITY those who are kidding themselves ARE THOSE NOT WILLING to LOOK into themselves FOR the KNOWLEDGE ALREADY PRESENT BUT TRAPPED DUE TO YOU NOT TAKING MEDITATION TIME ECT TO FIND THE LIGHT*

SO ALL SHOULD CONTINUE TO LOOK INTO THEIR INFINITE ETERNAL SELVES CONNECTED TO THE ETERNAL SOURCE OF ALL* OR THE CREATOR for ENLIGHTENMENT.



[color=gold]
LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA
NAMASTE*******

reply to post by DeathbecomesLife

If ego death results, as you have said, in sitting their smiling... Why not just shut up and let it die?

yea, thats fine, shut up and let it die. Or smile and let it die, or laugh and let it die. It does not mean we are robots. On this end, there is a lot of humor in all this, having seen how I always took myself so serious from the perspective of the ego, and then seeing all the debates and arguing and simply smiling at the humor of it all. At the end there still remains freedom to laugh, smile or be quiet and stay still.

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Theophorus
This goes out to all you New agers.To be enlightened is to be aware. To have an awareness of something, one must have KNOWLEDGE of the existence of that something. In this case that something being enlightenment or awareness which in turn can only be boiled down to knowledge itself.Now, People are finite beings meaning we have limited boundaries. The knowledge we gain is also finite. Point being made is that in our finite state enlightenment is un-obtainable.Anyone looking into there finite self to find infinite knowledge is just kidding themself.

Goodness!!!

Oh, did you know that the quantum (being a finite, indivisible unit of action, proven to exist over 100 years ago by its physical requirement, given the fact that electron orbits don't progressively decay into complete collapse) debunks the entire concept of the physical existence of infinity? It's true.

You can't prove the non-existence of infinity via expansion, but you can prove that it doesn't, and can't, exist via contraction - the required other expression of physical infinity. And 100 years ago, they did prove it. So much for any form of infinity, since infinity (if it is truly infinite) can't only be infinite in one direction.

Isn't logic and reality fun?

I know im late to this thread but,,.,,.,.,. I understood the op to be talking of information,,,,,,, right now can you know all the information of the universe and beyond? also the information of the universe right now is different then it was a billion years ago,,,,, and im talking all the information,,,, we humans dont know everything about our planet,,,,, how many planets are there in the universe and how many have their been? how many things occured on those planets every plancks length of time? is it possible for a human to know all this information? are we on a presipus of current time at this moment meaning the universe will continue to evolve for billions or more years,,, right now do we know/can we know all the information of all the particles on all the stars and planets for every planck length of time from now for the next billion billion years? how much longer will this cylce go on? since it is impossible to put a number at the end,, can we say that this information is near infinite... it is continuos,,, current,,,

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Theophorus
This goes out to all you New agers.To be enlightened is to be aware. To have an awareness of something, one must have KNOWLEDGE of the existence of that something. In this case that something being enlightenment or awareness which in turn can only be boiled down to knowledge itself.Now, People are finite beings meaning we have limited boundaries. The knowledge we gain is also finite. Point being made is that in our finite state enlightenment is un-obtainable.Anyone looking into there finite self to find infinite knowledge is just kidding themself.

Goodness!!!

Oh, did you know that the quantum (being a finite, indivisible unit of action, proven to exist over 100 years ago by its physical requirement, given the fact that electron orbits don't progressively decay into complete collapse) debunks the entire concept of the physical existence of infinity? It's true.

You can't prove the non-existence of infinity via expansion, but you can prove that it doesn't, and can't, exist via contraction - the required other expression of physical infinity. And 100 years ago, they did prove it. So much for any form of infinity, since infinity (if it is truly infinite) can't only be infinite in one direction.

Isn't logic and reality fun?

Oh boy here we go. Seriously.

You cannot use a weight scale to measure distance and you cannot use finite logic to measure infinity. Simply put, scientific nomenclature and math will indefinitely fail at identifying or communicating anything that is not delusional, finite or without substance. But if you insist.. give me a reference to the actual mathematical proof.

If you believe finite reality is the only true reality when can we expect it to end? Should be easily calculated.

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by BlueMule

That process is found in world myth and religion time and time again...portrayed in symbolic form. It's called the monomyth. The best way to detect that process in religion and myth is by studying comparative mythology, comparative mysticism, and comparative religion.

Oh...myth and religion. I see.

Okay then.

I wonder what myth and religion states as fact about the moon? About viruses and bacteria?

Damn, I'm glad I found this thread today.

I don't like your vibe and so I'll just point out the words 'symbolic form', which I USED... and point you to the book I linked to and leave you to them.

edit on 20-6-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Symbolism isn't a clarification. In fact, I defy any of you to be able to explain what you actually believe in any form whatsoever besides symbolism and tortured poetry. I've been on this board for over 2 and a half years and I've yet to see anyone do more than toss out weary platitudes and thousand year old riff rehashes to explain this stuff. Makes a person doubt that it's anything that actually exists outside of the head of the person trying to sell it.

And what are you using to communicate your frustrated ideas if not Symbolism and tortured nomenclature? If you are directly communicating Truth through some secret non-symbolic means please let me know and i will be sure to put my magic non-symbolic ears on.

According to advaita only that which does not change or ceases to exist is permanent. This according to advaita is brahman. There is only two problems with this. First, by advaitas own addmision this cant be. Everything changes!! Thus being a constant.Thus being permanent. Second, nothing ceases to exist.just changes form. Also, god is a personal being not impersonal

reply to post by LifeIsEnergy


Hey There,

Instead, he would have said, "all phenomena is empty, even this concept of emptiness is empty."

This makes sense and to me, as simple a concept as this is, is the ultimate understanding. All phenomena includes everything but Reality itself. In my own experience Reality is the only thing that is Real and all else would be delusional. Self is an illusion and as a result is incapable of experiencing Reality. So any "self" one identifies with is in fact phenomena and illusory. Regardless of the amount of meditation the illusion or delusion persists to this moment in our illusory context of time. All states achieved through meditation are delusional because ultimately there is a self experiencing it. That self is never Truth/Reality.

From the context of delusion, which is rooted in time, Reality cannot, has never been and never will be communicated or experienced by illusion. The uncomfortable paradox which pushes people to investigate and meditate never has and never will lead to Truth.

This is why all traditions fortell of a greater understanding, a second coming or an End Time. Because the ultimate delusional understanding leads one to the sobering conclusion that illusion persists so long as the delusion of time persists. And the enlightenment sought cannot be communicated or experienced in Time.

If anyone ever attained, realized or experienced True Reality this illusion/delusion that we are would cease.

We are illusion. And the illusion itself is an illusion. A mirage is not real except that it is a "real" mirage. A "real" illusion. But Truth is actual. It is actually Real. And just as we will never drink real water from a mirage's oasis.. we will never experience/be/communicate Truth through the delusion of self.

So i would agree with the OP that enlightenment itself is a delusion. IF one defines enlightenment to the experience of Truth/Reality. If enlightenment is the ever evolving understanding of the delusional phenomenon outside the context of Reality.. then every delusional self is enlightened.

Originally posted by Theophorus
According to advaita only that which does not change or ceases to exist is permanent. This according to advaita is brahman. There is only two problems with this. First, by advaitas own addmision this cant be. Everything changes!! Thus being a constant.Thus being permanent. Second, nothing ceases to exist.just changes form. Also, god is a personal being not impersonal

edit on 20-6-2012 by Theophorus because: (no reason given)

Consider that change is measured in the context of time. Things do not change in eternity. Only in time.

Reality which is Truth is full and eternally complete. It is eternal, not a long time.. but without time. There is no change. Because time is an illusion, change is also an illusion.

Observed change, in any state is illusory. And an unchanging self cannot experience change. So a self that observes change over time is part of the illusion.

disclaimer: i am a delusional illusion.

Originally posted by Blarneystoner
KNOWLEDGE.... is not enlightenment.

KNOWING is like a disease
If you think you KNOW
Then you are truly sick....

i think i know that tree will fall over when cut near its base....... I think i know if i dont eat i will die,,.,,.,. I think i know i think there fore i am.....

I think i know i can,,,, i think i can i think i can,,,,,,i can.

reply to post by Theophorus

According to advaita only that which does not change or ceases to exist is permanent. This according to advaita is brahman. There is only two problems with this. First, by advaitas own addmision this cant be. Everything changes!! Thus being a constant.Thus being permanent. Second, nothing ceases to exist.just changes form. Also, god is a personal being not impersonal

this is all intellectual conceptualization. Experience it yourself and you will see that this is so. I was a Christian, like hard core evangelical, and then had mystical experiences so had no choice but to be a Mystic. I looked into Advaita, and experienced that what they say is true, from direct experience, so now I include Advaitist into my label if One was to ask what am I.

The Oneness/Emptiness is permanently inherent in all things and all things are inherently One anyway. This Oneness does not change,always has been, Is, always will be. The shapes and forms seem to change, but that is just the play of the Oneness. In example, change does not change, and change is also inherently Oneness.

Personal/Impersonal are concepts. When we speak from ego/I/Mind separate identity, then we think in terms of personal God. However experiencing God, there is no more a you to experience said God, so in that sense its impersonal.

The direct experience Advaita is discussing, is completely and entirely beyond anything that could be said in it, and all paradoxes are ultimately resolved in Absolute Oneness.

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
Poor NorEaster, he has spent thousands of hours relentlessly gazing and picking at philosophy and science books, learning to mimic their words and ideas, just to troll a conspiracy website and shout people down for an ego kick.

"I refuse to read about what the most peaceful and content people on earth have realized about life, I am busy trying to realize something no one has found before, even if it drives me insane. Hopefully this will give me the credibility and recognition I am so desperately seeking. I need it!"

...and you are....?

I don't think I've run into you before. So, you know me...how?

And what ideas have I mimicked? Specifically. I'd like to at least be aware of this mimicry so that I can learn from my having engaged in it. Oh, and is it an ego kick to have teenagers posting the same Hindu YouTube clips at you after more of the same wasted phrase salad mash-ups about nothing that thinks it's everything while being an illusion of something that can't really be anything but the observed nothing, although if it's nothing that's being observed by nothing then...Christ.... I don't know. It's like reading nothing at all dumped back in response to whatever it is that I had hoped at first might trigger a quality exchange, for a change.

To be honest, I find the sophomoric one-up-man-ship around here really tiresome. If 1/10th of you kids were 1/10th as awake as you claim to be, you'd all be buzzing at 10 times the rate of intellectual emergence that is evident when browsing through the threads. Hell, at least you'd be using spellcheck or properly constructing sentences.

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by BlueMule

That process is found in world myth and religion time and time again...portrayed in symbolic form. It's called the monomyth. The best way to detect that process in religion and myth is by studying comparative mythology, comparative mysticism, and comparative religion.

Oh...myth and religion. I see.

Okay then.

I wonder what myth and religion states as fact about the moon? About viruses and bacteria?

Damn, I'm glad I found this thread today.

I don't like your vibe and so I'll just point out the words 'symbolic form', which I USED... and point you to the book I linked to and leave you to them.

edit on 20-6-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Symbolism isn't a clarification. In fact, I defy any of you to be able to explain what you actually believe in any form whatsoever besides symbolism and tortured poetry. I've been on this board for over 2 and a half years and I've yet to see anyone do more than toss out weary platitudes and thousand year old riff rehashes to explain this stuff. Makes a person doubt that it's anything that actually exists outside of the head of the person trying to sell it.

And what are you using to communicate your frustrated ideas if not Symbolism and tortured nomenclature? If you are directly communicating Truth through some secret non-symbolic means please let me know and i will be sure to put my magic non-symbolic ears on.

I can detail it all in very plain English language, and while it takes 130,000 words to put it all together, when it's done, there aren't any questions or symbolic references. Period. I can back up every word I'm saying too.

And I mean detailing exactly who we are, what we are, and if there is a "reason" why we exist, I can detail that as well. I make that "if" caveat concerning reason, because not all reality confines serve the deliberate intent of an intelligent author, and some such confines no longer serve a deliberate intent. I've published all of this and made all of it available to a wide range of professionals in a variety of scientific and metaphysics disciplines. It's been aggressively vetted and I have yet to be challenged on any of it by someone who's taken on the vetting effort.

But go ahead and be smug about what you think you know. Hell, human history is jam packed with folks like you. Nothing new there.