the "debate" is really not a fair one...

on the one hand, we have the mainstream sci community. these are folk who claim

A
that science is a continual process of collective additive improvement and adjustment where old models are replaced by more successul models

and

B
That they are RIGHT about what they tell us.

theres a contradiction built in to this, according to science ITSELF, it isnt RIGHT, it is a close approximation of RIGHT for use NOW until it is replaced by a closer approximation...

the resistance of science to embrace anomalous data is a sad mistake, for it is the anomalous data that offers us the fastest way out of our caveman problem.

looking at the pieces that DO NOT fit our model is the best way to improve our model.

but on the other side we have woowoos, even if they are right, the mainstream has not yet given them the nod, this alone will keep the herd away..

This argument, the discussion of our ancestors and the mysteries of earlier life on this planet, is spoiled by the large number of folk who have already picked sides..

off the top of my head we have the theosophists, the cayce crowd, each of the major religions, the EVD folk, the more specific but related Sitchin people, and the more sci oriented but very similar themes of Hoagland.

i know theres more of us wierdos but this is just for illustration...

then youve got mainstream science, which claims to be free of all the superstitions of the above crowd, but is riddled with assumptions of their own. Many of the assumptions of science are clung to with the strength of a religious belief, and for the same reasons, an old respected man wrote it into a book long ago (LOL)

for example, i took archeology 101 a few years back at the city college for fun. with a straight face my prof told us that the inca had no written language and no knowledge of the wheel. we then learned about the quippas (sp?) or knotted cords which served as a recorded language, and we saw photos of wheeled toys.

the same guy also told us that the Olmec had no knowledge of metalworking, he then went on to tell us that the Olmec were MASTER GOLDSMITHS.

The average debunker is usually satisfied with an appeal to authority type argument. The average wierdo is really doing the same thing, you see it here all the time as people post snips from their authority figures (mainstream or woowoo)

but what we really gotta do instead is OPEN UP OUR EYES. pretty much each of the models on the table has flaws and strengths, which is why each has supporters although we havent found THE TRUTH yet.

we have to be willing to chuck old models and replace them, even if that means we enter into a personal identity crisis and have to redefine ourselves and our role in the world.. ITS A JOURNEY

and it seems that people very much like us have been making that journey here on earth for a very long time.

The regular picture is upsetting itself, we dont have to help that happen, at the age of 42, ive already seen the "official" threshold of civilization get pushed back from greece to egypt to sumer...

now we have harrapa, mojeno daro, marcahuasi, catalhuluk, and a whole lotta other places i cant spell.

but the "regular" folk dont know about these sites, "Regular" folk know what they learned in school...

so if it all started in egypt in 3kbc... and THESE OTHER GUYS were doing it in 15kbc... then we gotta have aliens... but thats only because the official picture says NO SMART PEOPLE. but the official picture is always changing, it just takes time for the academic trickle down effect to hit people outside of specialized fields

but of course theres no reason that say that we DONT got aliens, the 2 arguments dont really have to connect.

what if there was a "high tech" human culture here without aliens? or what if those folk were high tech and had alien contact? or what if those folk "were" aliens (human space colonists arriving on earth from elsewhere)... what if high tech ancient earth humans fled a pole shift and took a long relativistic trip through space and are only coming back home about now after thousands of "local" years? OMG theyd be time travelers, ancient earth people, and aliens from space ALL AT ONCE.

Model Agnosticism is the way to go.

and PS i cant believe nobody posted a pic of the wild haired guy from that alien history tv show (love it!) is that fad already passe?

No better than this one.
they died off and we will to.

some of the goverment scum hiding in the deep bunkers will survive.
and this silly game will start over.
I wounder how many time it has hapend?
and how many to come? sad...

It is so stupid of them to hid the Technology from us.
look what people do with what we have now.
we could make advances faster with more help.

I dont understand what they get from keeping us running as slave?
are they realy that happy with it?
they cannot tel us the truth now.
thet fear what we would do to them.

It is so stupid of them to hid the Technology from us.
look what people do with what we have now.
we could make advances faster with more help.

I dont understand what they get from keeping us running as slave?
are they realy that happy with it?
they cannot tel us the truth now.
thet fear what we would do to them.

Originally posted by Hanslune

Originally posted by benrl

Exactly. The thing is, high technology just doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists within an equally high-tech infrastructure. High technology things require precision. Precision requires machines. Machines require maintenance and power sources

Take the Toba catastrophe, A few asteroid strikes, a few super volcanoes, an ice age are two...

How much would be left of our civilization after such events? might the next Civ start out with some crazy creation story and maybe a few scattered monoliths of Ours to remind them?

The Thera volcano blew up with a mighy explosion and left the Akrotiri on the same island, some event preserve materials also like Pompeii

A world wide civilization to be erased would require a natural event(s) that would easily show up in the geological record.....

And they did, ice ages, volcanic eruptions, floods, and not to mention the few sights around the world containing Massive Craters that could possibly be explosions from bombs?(since no one really KNOWS) an Advanced Ancient Civilization and maybe even multiple civilizations, millions of years apart, is a very reasonable idea, and even if we did, or do discover something, it would be so alien to us, that we would think ALIENS or HOAX, and not much else of it.
But what evidence would you find if the extinction event was artificial? And look at the moon also, behaves, and looks like an artificial structure to me

A more advanced civilization probably did exist,but in a different way.
A different way of thinking.

Not technologically,as our society is,but in the understanding of our surrounding universe.
And understanding of nature and how to use those things without having to create something.
It's already there.

Just my thoughts on it.

Peace,
K

Originally posted by XaniMatriX
And they did, ice ages, volcanic eruptions, floods, and not to mention the few sights around the world containing Massive Craters that could possibly be explosions from bombs?(since no one really KNOWS) an Advanced Ancient Civilization and maybe even multiple civilizations, millions of years apart, is a very reasonable idea, and even if we did, or do discover something, it would be so alien to us, that we would think ALIENS or HOAX, and not much else of it.

The thing is, it takes thousands of years to make an advanced civilization, and they leave marks on the land... like mines where they dig ore and so forth. Primitive humans didn't just fall out of the tree and say "okay -- today I'm inventing polyester and digital watches." In order to have digital watches, you need factories, and those need electricity (or some sort of power) and to develop that you have to go through a whole chain of things.

Every one of those (the move from hunting with stone spears to developing metal arrowheads) leaves evidence. People learned to build huge cities by learning first to build little mud houses with streets that didn't really follow any set map. They didn't just walk out of Africa and suddenly build New York City with stone axes and fire.

Each progressive step leaves traces.

Even a civilization that ran on magic and crystals would leave a lot of traces (things changed, things moved, garbage pits, etc.)

Originally posted by uwascallywabbit
the "debate" is really not a fair one...

on the one hand, we have the mainstream sci community. these are folk who claim

A
that science is a continual process of collective additive improvement and adjustment where old models are replaced by more successul models

and

B
That they are RIGHT about what they tell us.

theres a contradiction built in to this, according to science ITSELF, it isnt RIGHT, it is a close approximation of RIGHT for use NOW until it is replaced by a closer approximation...

the resistance of science to embrace anomalous data is a sad mistake, for it is the anomalous data that offers us the fastest way out of our caveman problem.

looking at the pieces that DO NOT fit our model is the best way to improve our model.

but on the other side we have woowoos, even if they are right, the mainstream has not yet given them the nod, this alone will keep the herd away..

This argument, the discussion of our ancestors and the mysteries of earlier life on this planet, is spoiled by the large number of folk who have already picked sides..

off the top of my head we have the theosophists, the cayce crowd, each of the major religions, the EVD folk, the more specific but related Sitchin people, and the more sci oriented but very similar themes of Hoagland.

i know theres more of us wierdos but this is just for illustration...

then youve got mainstream science, which claims to be free of all the superstitions of the above crowd, but is riddled with assumptions of their own. Many of the assumptions of science are clung to with the strength of a religious belief, and for the same reasons, an old respected man wrote it into a book long ago (LOL)

for example, i took archeology 101 a few years back at the city college for fun. with a straight face my prof told us that the inca had no written language and no knowledge of the wheel. we then learned about the quippas (sp?) or knotted cords which served as a recorded language, and we saw photos of wheeled toys.

the same guy also told us that the Olmec had no knowledge of metalworking, he then went on to tell us that the Olmec were MASTER GOLDSMITHS.

The average debunker is usually satisfied with an appeal to authority type argument. The average wierdo is really doing the same thing, you see it here all the time as people post snips from their authority figures (mainstream or woowoo)

but what we really gotta do instead is OPEN UP OUR EYES. pretty much each of the models on the table has flaws and strengths, which is why each has supporters although we havent found THE TRUTH yet.

we have to be willing to chuck old models and replace them, even if that means we enter into a personal identity crisis and have to redefine ourselves and our role in the world.. ITS A JOURNEY

and it seems that people very much like us have been making that journey here on earth for a very long time.

The regular picture is upsetting itself, we dont have to help that happen, at the age of 42, ive already seen the "official" threshold of civilization get pushed back from greece to egypt to sumer...

now we have harrapa, mojeno daro, marcahuasi, catalhuluk, and a whole lotta other places i cant spell.

but the "regular" folk dont know about these sites, "Regular" folk know what they learned in school...

so if it all started in egypt in 3kbc... and THESE OTHER GUYS were doing it in 15kbc... then we gotta have aliens... but thats only because the official picture says NO SMART PEOPLE. but the official picture is always changing, it just takes time for the academic trickle down effect to hit people outside of specialized fields

but of course theres no reason that say that we DONT got aliens, the 2 arguments dont really have to connect.

what if there was a "high tech" human culture here without aliens? or what if those folk were high tech and had alien contact? or what if those folk "were" aliens (human space colonists arriving on earth from elsewhere)... what if high tech ancient earth humans fled a pole shift and took a long relativistic trip through space and are only coming back home about now after thousands of "local" years? OMG theyd be time travelers, ancient earth people, and aliens from space ALL AT ONCE.

Model Agnosticism is the way to go.

and PS i cant believe nobody posted a pic of the wild haired guy from that alien history tv show (love it!) is that fad already passe?

edit on 30-8-2012 by uwascallywabbit because: stuff

edit on 30-8-2012 by uwascallywabbit because: (no reason given)

Ok wow.. You don't post much but when you do... Wow
Great read.. Read it People.... If all your 70+ posts are like these they should count
for Quadruple Stars and Flags.
And yes the pic of the crazy hair guy who says,
"Therefore Aliens" ,is, or should be, passé .
Fantastic posts again..

I dont understand why it is constantly 'aliens' that brought us up out of the tree's. Its more than possible that we rose and fell on our own. Either self destructively or by a natural disaster we fell. We left for the stars 15000+ years ago. This makes more mathematical sense than some alien race finding us, even if they were looking for us.

Probability leans astronomically away from us being visited by an advanced species. WE were the advanced species. The misinterpreted stories are about us.

Linguists pretend they have a clue what the scratches say on stones 9000 years old. Thats like saying my 6 year old niece can translate Korean writing because she found a napkin with a symbol on it while visiting Japan.