Marginalizing Men in society

reply to post by trysts


You'll do better making an articulate argument in your favor. We can certainly disagree respectively.

But you've added nothing useful to this convo.

Originally posted by KnawLick
reply to post by trysts

 

You'll do better making an articulate argument in your favor. We can certainly disagree respectively.

But you've added nothing useful to this convo.

I just find the thread funny, because it sounds like you want half the population of the world to be stereotypical men. And you want the other half of the world to be stereotypical women. Men aren't marginalized except in the women's public bathrooms. I look at the world as having 7 billion individuals, choosing to be whatever they wish to be(if of course, they are given the right to by certain governments). I'm sorry if I didn't add more to this thread than expressing my amusement at it. Please don't take it personally

reply to post by Badgered1


I'm a woman, and I encounter nastiness from other women. Sometimes backlash for being polite and curtious, transcends genders, they are just miserable people. It may be just me, but men rarely act like that.

reply to post by trysts


There are 7 billion individuals, I understand your point completely, and I agree

I think the OP is saying, that media and society is using anti-male propaganda to influence people. The outcome of systematically breaking down gender roles, is not to free people from those gender roles, but for other nefarious purposes.

I'm all for people being themselves, I'm not for the manipulation of it, like everything else that goes on today, this is no exception.

We shouldn't knock down males to build up females, we should be pro both.

Originally posted by kat2684
reply to post by Badgered1

 

I'm a woman, and I encounter nastiness from other women. Sometimes backlash for being polite and curtious, transcends genders, they are just miserable people. It may be just me, but men rarely act like that.

Nasty people will always be just that. I think women really set what will be deemed "moral" within society.

Men will always push the limits to their extremes. But the limit women are willing to deal with really is the deciding factor in the public.

Here in Alabama the Supreme Court has ruled that even if you lose the rights to your children, you must continue to pay child support. This ruling came when a man agreed to sign his rights away. His wife claimed he was signing them away to get out of child support, and the courts agreed.

On a side note, since I'm ranting about this, my other half recently lost her children to her ex, who has lost them to his mother. Since she was unemployed for awhile, she owes back child support. They take out over $400 a month, yet her balance only drops $12-15 a month.

reply to post by KnawLick


I believe that is very true.

Women do set the parameter for moral standards, while men tend to push the envelope.

You have me thinking, how many times do women try to reign in their husbands?

Sometimes its nessecary for the relationship to survive, sometimes its not. Again, there are different variables in every relationship, but that is pretty accurate.

Originally posted by kat2684
reply to post by trysts

 

There are 7 billion individuals, I understand your point completely, and I agree

I think the OP is saying, that media and society is using anti-male propaganda to influence people. The outcome of systematically breaking down gender roles, is not to free people from those gender roles, but for other nefarious purposes.

I'm all for people being themselves, I'm not for the manipulation of it, like everything else that goes on today, this is no exception.

We shouldn't knock down males to build up females, we should be pro both.

edit on 18-6-2012 by kat2684 because: (no reason given)

I don't know what the "nefarious purposes" can be, but I do know that the violence and war-enthralled males are not diminishing here in the U.S. I would love to see those males who grow up here wanting to solve problems through conflict, just to stop repeating those roles.
But, I must say, with all the feminist bashing from men and women, which I've read here at ATS, I am getting suspicious that something more lies beneath the original post than just respecting genders equally, as you have implied, kat2684

reply to post by trysts


I got from the OP, that he was a bit fed up of double standards, and male bashing. He hasn't set out to bash women, he was only justifying his point, I don't see a conspiracy.

What I mean by nefarious, maybe jumping the gun. I have learned to be skeptical of any angle pushed by media, for good reason.

Men do not have to be brutes, to be men. I wouldn't advocate that, and that is just as detrimental to men as portraying them as idiots.

Originally posted by kat2684
reply to post by trysts

 

I got from the OP, that he was a bit fed up of double standards, and male bashing. He hasn't set out to bash women, he was only justifying his point, I don't see a conspiracy.

What I mean by nefarious, maybe jumping the gun. I have learned to be skeptical of any angle pushed by media, for good reason.

Okay, thanks!

reply to post by kat2684


Certainly wasn't meant as "bashing" women. If it was taken that way. I think the opposite is true.

Really it has nothing to do with women. It's was more a call to men to take charge again. To make our own future and not let our role be shaped by societies dictates.

I encourage any wives or women that will support us in this effort though.

reply to post by KnawLick


I didn't see it as bashing at all.

I think men are a bit depressed, maybe from combinations of economy, and society. They may struggle to balance family and work, and make ends meet. Just as some women do, but there is some hard wiring in mens brains, call it instincts, that men feel unfufilled, that they no longer serve the purpose they once had.

I'm all for people busting through barriers, just not by being manipulated, and the expense of others. To prop women up, shoudn't be by breaking men down. I do see this quite a bit unfortunately.

Originally posted by KnawLick
reply to post by kat2684

 

Certainly wasn't meant as "bashing" women. If it was taken that way. I think the opposite is true.

Really it has nothing to do with women. It's was more a call to men to take charge again. To make our own future and not let our role be shaped by societies dictates.

I encourage any wives or women that will support us in this effort though.

I'm sorry, but it really seems like this does have something to do with women. Obviously the "plight of men" has thousands of years of expression in almost all disciplines throughout the entire world. Therefore, to suggest that men are marginalized, and for "men to take charge again", certainly persuades me to think this has a lot to do with women. Perhaps feminism, since one of your choices in the OP was 'has feminism castrated" you guys. When I went to school and University, I had to read of, and about individuals who were men at least 80% of the time. At least. So men's plight in this world is well documented.
Now, if you're saying that a certain class or group of men are being marginalized, or not being respected, given opportunity, etc., then you should tell us what group that is, otherwise common sense informs me that mostly men are in charge of all the countries, corporations, and places of power and influence in this world and they would probably like to know which men are you speaking of?

I've put a great deal of thought into this for the last few years, watching the world, reading threads and observing similar debates. I am not "King Macheesmo", but I do consider myself a man.

I am not afraid of many things, I hit the weights faithfully, love to hike, work a physical labor job, and while I try not to judge, I cringe at blatant displays of cowardice, or weakness. I used to be super judgmental and felt that regardless of sexual orientation, or even size; a man should be a man. Ironically, I was a bit more forgiving of women who choose to break social molds.

I've balanced my views a bit more now, and even though it is ingrained in me to not understand that weird looking guy with a Bieber cut, and kneecap-skinny jeans, I repeatedly correct myself and remind myself that what you can bench press, and how much pain you take really has no affect on your own value.

Ultimately, I have come to the conclusion that you are all correct to a certain degree, but you can't quite pin it on women. The media is a great deal responsible for the pussification of BOTH sexes to be honest. They zombified consumers with anti-bacterial everything, sensodyne for sensitive gums, hair-loss products etc.... Men AND women of the old world, in any country never worried about this garbage.

Many men nowadays work out to look in the mirror, and not to simply be stronger, tougher, healthier specimens. They are going out of their way to LOOK like their unrealistic super heroes they've seen in movies, yet have next to nothing in common with them aside from a shapely body.

Our modern age has completely sterilized us of the struggles that forced us to be more physically, and mentally stable. There is truth to survival of the fittest, and don't think I am some cold, "let the weak die" type because I'm not, but when they started unloading the Prozac, and all the other drugs, they never considered the long-term affects. What good is a human being that can't evolve to emotionally bear the weight of his or her own existence?

Since we have made medical strides, our population has exploded. We are a society of young people with no work ethics, and an addiction to Xbox 360. Young men are tanning, pruning over themselves and taking ridiculous looking profile pictures for their Face books. I realize I am judging, but perhaps it is the man in me at 35 years old that is looking around and saying WTF happened?

I wish to add: before you start blaming women, I have observed men being just as bad sheltering their kids from a bike fall, germs and whatever other horrors of life you can concieve.

Originally posted by trysts

Originally posted by KnawLick
reply to post by kat2684

 

Certainly wasn't meant as "bashing" women. If it was taken that way. I think the opposite is true.

Really it has nothing to do with women. It's was more a call to men to take charge again. To make our own future and not let our role be shaped by societies dictates.

I encourage any wives or women that will support us in this effort though.

I'm sorry, but it really seems like this does have something to do with women. Obviously the "plight of men" has thousands of years of expression in almost all disciplines throughout the entire world. Therefore, to suggest that men are marginalized, and for "men to take charge again", certainly persuades me to think this has a lot to do with women. Perhaps feminism, since one of your choices in the OP was 'has feminism castrated" you guys. When I went to school and University, I had to read of, and about individuals who were men at least 80% of the time. At least. So men's plight in this world is well documented.
Now, if you're saying that a certain class or group of men are being marginalized, or not being respected, given opportunity, etc., then you should tell us what group that is, otherwise common sense informs me that mostly men are in charge of all the countries, corporations, and places of power and influence in this world and they would probably like to know which men are you speaking of?

I have to agree here, for two reasons:

1. Men have been running the world (quite literally) for pretty much all of recorded history. We have muscled our way into that position because we are essentially physically bigger and perhaps a bit more naturally aggressive.

2. Men, MEN would not allow themselves to be marginalized, with the exception of children. It is society that has changed, the demands have changed, and as Kat mentioned, men are in a sense Idle, and uncertain what to do in a society where swords and spears are not so much needed.

It is not that men are being marginalized, it is that there are no more men, only males.

reply to post by BS_Slayer


That was brilliant!!

I think alot of men carry your sentiments. As a woman, I hate to see men be replaced from guys like you, to the guys who belong on the Jersey Shore, that is my opinion. I don't find anything attractive in a male who plucks his eyebrows, of fixes his hair more then I do.

My husband is 41, and there is something about the men who grew up in the 70's and 80's, that is very different then children brought up in the 90's and 2000's. It could be that back then parents were not overly protecting their children, mom didn't hover like a shadow, boys were testing the waters more physically, I don't know.

I see women more often, crush the dardevil, "boys will be boys" spirit that many males have. I have seen dads do those things too, a scrape on the knee and the kid is having convultions, because daddy made a mountain out of a mole hill. No body tells their kid to "walk it off" anymore, my dad use to say "you'll live" I took a softball to the temple and was knocked out cold, forget hugs, rainbows, and buterflies, I got a "you'll live" lol.

I saw a woman screaming at her 5 year old boy that he couldn't get in the water at the beach, the boy just sat there staring off (with a bathing suit, water wings). She nagged, hovered, just dominated his every move, it was pitiful. Meanwhile my 6 year old daughter jumps 3ft off a pier into the water, along with her brother. I see this at playgrounds, school, in public everywhere these boys are whipped, and daddy is either working, or removed from the picture to stop it.

reply to post by kat2684


Well said, Kat, and thank you for your comment.

Its a shame that a kid can't just enjoy the water without being forced to inherit his mother's/father's fears. I completely understand as well as anyone else; loving your children, and I can't imagine anything more humbling to the soul. I also understand, however, that safety can not replace a sense of living, and that is something you just can't sacrifice, as I do not believe our species was designed to sit, prune, and obsess all day. I can't help but feel this weird sense of Orwellian eeriness when almost half the population around me is staring into a phone all day. It just weirds me out.

Technology is AWESOME, I'm not demonizing cell phones, video games, or a desire to look good, but when those things harbor a sense of addictive security, or feed an ego beyond a level that can sustain a sense of strength and empathy, they need to be kept in check.

I am aware that as I age, I will likely feel a sense of alienation with the generations that come after, that's normal, but I am truly concerned for pretty much anyone under 25 at this point. I have never seen such a group of media-addicted, materialistic kids. Mind you, I am not deliberately trying to generalize ALL of them, but it is not often I come into contact with young people I can relate to on certain levels.

If you can't handle an eight hour day without texting, checking facebook, or falling apart because you're having relationship problems, there is something wrong, and I'm not trying to be mean or negative. Anyway, women like you are also a rare breed, and it is a pleasure to meet you.

reply to post by BS_Slayer


I think people have started protecting their children from things that mean no harm, while on the flip side they are not protecting them from what really does matter, like vaccines, and fluoride water. A few inches of water will not hurt any child if your close to pick them up. Instead of her tanning on the beach, just maybe she should of given him swimming lessons (its a bay, with no waves).

As for technology, I feel it serves good and bad purposes. I see the addicted youth to all things entertainment, I'm 27 so I'm on the cusp of two seperate generations, while I think large doses warp the brain, it does allow things to be exposed more then ever before. The only area I take the biggest fault with is weapons, American people armed with AR-15 can't fight the weapons we have been using lately, any revolution will be rough.

As for men, there will be a time when society will revert back to their roots. I think it will happen in our lifetimes, whether for a brief moment in history or not.

reply to post by kat2684


You raise some excellent points, and its always refreshing to see other people that are open to issues like fluoride and especially vaccines. As for entertainment, television itself has been outlawed in my home, but not so much because of the shows. Silly things like family guy are allowed via DVD or streaming, as are movies etc...its the news and advertising that has been banned. My wife and I have worked hard to maintain certain rules, like mandatory outside time I have my 14 year old loving documentaries, about all kinds of things you wouldn't think a kid would be interested in.

We do have our video games (limited content, and play time), and the 3 of them share a cell phone for when they go out, texting isn't a feature, as I see no purpose for it. I'm no yuppie or anything, but with all the mistakes I'm bound to make as a parent, I don't want my kids to be materialistic, and above all, apathetic. I am also a bit like your dad in that if its a small thing, tears and whining won't yield much attention.

I do realize that not all women will want my sons to open doors, and I will never raise them to see women as the lesser sex in any way, however, I find few women that take issue with being a gentleman, especially if you are doing it because you appreciate and cherish the female race. I'd rather them be looked at as old fashioned gentleman, than sophisticated pansies.

In regard to revolution, I have a Viking mentality as true to my heritage. I think given the government's array of weaponry, there is not much we could do to literally take our country back from the bankers, but if things got bad enough, its worth dying for if only to have served as a living protest. I might have thought it possible if I didn't think outside troops would be brought in to help restabilize the rat cage.

If there is ever a revolution, and that is a big IF since I do not see much potential lately..it will be information-based, and it could only happen by "corrupting" the minds of those next in line to inherit rule.