The Reason Some Americans Hate Immigrants...it's not because they are "illegal"

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posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 



OMG .. you are STILL AT IT??? There is a huge difference in not wanting anyone coming here and not wanting TOO MANY people to come here because of basic economics. My god ... if you can't tell the difference then I feel VERY sorry for you. Your 'discussion' has entered the twilight zone


Yes...exactly...I 100% agree.

Do you know what that basic economic reason is....COMPETITION.

You specifically seem to really fear competition in the job market from immigrants....this was exactly my point of the entire thread.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.




posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher


No...by definition a country does not own "private" property.

Words mean things....public and private are two different things.



Where is that definition? Then go hangout in a military base or the Pentagon if the government doesn't own any property. The point is all governments claim to own land and exercise their authority to keep outsiders out of their land. Otherwise, there would be total anarchy and would be no such thing as borders and nations.

On a side note, the "public" owns stock in things like Fannie mae, General Motors, etc. Is everyone in the world entitled to ownership of these as well?


This is "my" country as much as it is "yours"...I'm welcoming them into "our" land...what makes you think that means I should house them or feed them or clothe them?

I'm inviting them in to give them an opportunity to work and better themselves...not to provide for them.

I am lazier than most of them...I didn't say I'm not successful. They can keep whatever they earn...and I'll do the same...why do you seem to have such a problem with that.


Exactlly! Your ok with allowing them on "our land" just not "your land". What right do you have to welcome people onto property that is not entirely yours? In other words, your moral obligation to allow these people to better themselves stops when it hits to close to home.

And I'm not claiming you said to provide for them. I'm saying your argument is that they should be allowed to break the law because they need things for themselves and family and they work really hard. I'm saying you admit they work harder than you and apparently they have a great need for their families, so they should be entitled to all of your stuff.

You say you'll keep what you earned. I say you didn't earn it. You admit they work harder than you, so the only reason that you are more successful than them is because of the situation you where born into.

Now thats not how I feel, but thats how you claim it should be. You say the US is about freedom and people shouldn't be left out just because they werent born here.

So put your money where your mouth is and stop telling other people they have to allow illegals on our collective land and give them your land which they deserve more than you.




Really...do you think it is ok for kids to play at a public park??? How about in your house???

Do you see how dumb that argument is...but I can tell you really think you have a good one...so keep on trying.




Lets use that example. Your saying that the government should have no right to regulate anyone entering the public park. So if a bunch of undocumented illegals want to go to the park, will you let your kids play there?

Keep in mind unlike citizens of this country, you have no way of knowing the criminal history of any of these people is.

On your point, I think that legal citizens should be allowed to use that park, and no I wouldn't want them in my house. The difference is all of those legal citizens have part ownership of that public park, and I have no right to keep owners out of it, whereas they don't own my land so I don't have to let them in.

Your saying that because you are part owner of this public park as a legal citizen, you have the right to tell all of the other owners that they have to let anyone in. I'm saying if you have the nerve to tell others to let illegals on land they part own, why don't you let them on property you fully own.




Where did I say that?

Where did I ask anyone to help them?

They come here to work...and they are harder workers than most Americans...so in a time of high unemployment...they still have jobs.

I never asked anyone to help them...you are just making things up now because your other "private vs public" argument is so weak.


You asked people to allow them to break the law because they are good people and hard workers. If a police officer, judge etc. would allow me to break the law so that I could get work, I would say they "helped" me out.

I dont understand why you don't think government has the right to protect its borders but somehow you have the right to have your own personal borders and protect them.

It seems to me that you want the government and other people to allow them on their land but your unwilling to do so yourself.



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 05:14 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 


Hey yeah it may be about competition, but not cause they work harder or are better, if their are 20,000 jobs to fill id rather their be only 15000 people applying for those jobs instead of 25,000 weather they be white, asian, black, Mexican, purple or green..

Thats just common sense
edit on 20-6-2012 by hellbjorn012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher


Well you did reply to my thread without calling anyone else out.

The fact remains...the ones talking about racism and race are those that are anti-immigration...no one else.

I think it is you and others who are projecting....not the other way around.


I was more referring to "InfoKartel," but of course their comments got deleted so I can not quote them.

They are pro-illegal immigration, and calls anyone who disagrees a racist. Straight off of the typical liberal script. I haven't seen anyone here who is "anti immigration," only anti illegal immigration.



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by Honor93
 



actually, plenty of posters have indicated their desire to punish the employers but that doesn't take away from the absolute fact that remains ... if there were no illegal immigrants to hire, the employers wouldn't be tempted.


Chicken or the egg???


So let's do it...let's crack down on employers who hire illegals for 1/3 of what they pay Americans. Now...who are they going to hire??? Americans still won't do the work illegals do.
any time you're ready ... there's a whole neighborhood of available fruit pickers just around the corner (but no job openings). heck, i've been bartering house cleaning duties for years, please, send more clients this way
and while you're at it, i know a few unemployed vets who are really good shots, perhaps border control could use their help ??
so, when do we start ??



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 
believe what you will but your silly accusations with no basis in fact does nothing to help your faulty argument.
but then again, you don't have any 1st hand experience with these issues, do you??



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 06:41 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 06:47 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 

Doctors and nurses aren't ICE employees
that ^^^^ wasn't your argument, why change it now?

no need to have ICE officers on site, they can be summoned as the need arises.
actually, cooperation between divisions often leads to a surplus of resources.

your are translating English for whom ??
too bad your translation is devoid of any factual information whatsoever.

plenty of ppl who live in sanctuary cities readily recognize the unmistakable body language of illegals, but, why would i divulge those secrets to you ??
they can be learned, you should try it


you're funny ... an Amendment is the "law of the land"

you keep believin it and maybe one day you'll realize just how wrong you are.



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 07:01 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 

However...I'm not surprised that you take false propaganda as fact and base your opinions off of that.
that's ok, i'm surprised that you'd reference snopes as any kind of reliable source but whatever

if you want to harp on it, feel free.
it doesn't change any of the facts of this situation we face with the overbearing, over-reaching, over-exaggerated plight of the illegals.


I just don't think Americans are going to be crazy about watching legal immigrants dying in the streets because you think they don't deserve medical care.
how does this question even apply to the topic at hand ??
and, why would legal immigrants be dying in the streets any more than they are today ??

oh, so you are for open borders but you don't think they deserve a government sponsored social net either ??
if so, then why push for the opposite ??



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I just don't think Americans are going to be crazy about watching legal immigrants dying in the streets because you think they don't deserve medical care.


American aren't crazy already, about finding themselves dying in the streets. There is tons of preventive care that may be made available to them and its not. I'm not saying the immigrants are a huge burden on the resources in 100% of the United States, but there is a rich set of publications demonstrating that they are in places like California. In my local Social Security office, 90% of faces are Hispanic.

So frankly, I think we need to set priorities straight and make sure that the country we live in is really doing OK (which it coincidentally doesn't) before opening the floodgate. Otherwise, all will drown.



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 08:09 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 

Mexican Americans....better?

We are a nation of immigrants...we define ourselves by our country of origin.

But a cute way to dodge the main point.
yes, that's a fine way to dodge the main point and no, that isn't any better since there is no such thing.
contrary to the PCspeak of today, there are only Americans of (insert your former nationality here) descent.
anyone who promotes a hyphenated nationality has no loyalty to either of them and that's a problem.

do tell, are there El Salvadorian Mexicans ? Panamanian Brazilians ? Cuban Americans ? Russian Canadians ? Swedish Brits ??
no there isn't, but if so, it's only around some water cooler somewhere, not the mainstream.

until 1986, we were a nation diversified with LEGAL immigrants.
after 1986, we became a nation of law-breakers, including citizens, legal and illegal immigrants, foreigners and leaders alike.
since then, all US leaders have avoided dealing with the situation, even Obama.



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 08:24 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Really..that's what you think this is about

That's what I know this is about.


I'm not the one that feels entitled to have first dibs on a job because I was born on the right side of an imaginary line.

Neither am I. I only state the playing field should be level. You seem to have a huge problem with that.


I love how you are trying to make you and other Americans the "victim" in this scenario. Are you the one being exploited by companies to work for less money? Are you the one that has to risk their life in order to feed their family? Are you the one that is labeled as a drug dealer, rapist, disease ridden, criminal? Do you suffer from a hate campaign so that when somone (like people in this thread) see a certain type of person speaking a different language, they immediately assume they are "illegal"...and you know....most likely a drug dealer and rapist?

No, and I am not the one who broke the law, causing all those things either.

There would be no exploitation by American companies if they had not come to America. They would not be risking their lives coming here if they were not coming here illegally. They would not be labeled as anything more than an "immigrant" if they did not take the illegal route, putting themselves into the same group as those you mention. The illegal immigrants caused this, not me.

Should a drunk driver kill someone in a car wreck, would you blame the person he killed for being in his way? Judging by your posts in this thread, I tend to believe you would. That is, of course, your prerogative to have and voice that opinion; it is not your prerogative to have others agree with it. I do not, will not, and if you have changed my attitude toward the illegal immigration issue at all in this thread, it is to make it more hardline.

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 08:27 PM
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reply to this post by OutKast Searcher
 
ya know OS, i'd bet more than myself would be interested in your responses to the following ...

Some American citizens fear competition from immigrants because they know the immigrants will win hands down in the job market.
proof please or this is just another opinion.


The immigrants are more driven, harder working, and in a lot of cases smarter than these American citizens who are complaining about them.
proof please or you are just spouting more propaganda.


These immigrants come here to WORK their asses off to provide a better life for their children.
then why, after cheating the system to get here do they continue to cheat the system until they are caught ??


They come with one goal...to WORK.
then why are soooo very many of them just plain old criminals, even after they broke the law to get here?


Immigrants aren't lazy
no one in this thread said they were so why the need to justify a fallacy ??


They are willing to sacrifice to give their children a better life
but, because most Americans share this same sentiment, somehow they are egotistical in your mind ??

but, of course, we do agree, it is about determination vs entitlement.
it's just the perspective that gets skewed along the way.



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher

I'm sure you can read...so why not taking a crack at the title of this thread again. Let me give you a hint..."Some Americans".

Yeah, the title says that... but your continual reference to "lazy Americans" reads different after a while. You even admitted that you were a "lazy American"!

I'm not surprised, though... you've been using double-speak to try and prove your point since page one. Case in point:

And if they cross through Mexico to get to the US...that makes them Mexican

That means they cross the Mexican border with the US... not the Central American border with the US.


It used to work just like that...until generations and generations went by and their descendants decided they are now entitled to the country...they decided we are "full" and that now it should be very difficult for new immigrants to come...oh yeah...it should also cost money.

It always cost money to come here. A large percentage of early immigrants were indentured servants when they landed and had to work off that servitude before they could start their life, because they couldn't afford passage. Many more literally spent everything they had to come here, arriving with little more than the clothes on their back and a dream of becoming an American. There was also a frontier, and a great many immigrants moved there. There is no frontier today. We span from coast to coast. The bucket filled up, but we still allowed 2 million legal immigrants in the last three years to become citizens.


So I will stay true to our ancestors and still think of this country as the land of opportunity for anyone...yes...anyone...who wants to come here and work for a better life.

That last part gets me... does that include someone who wants to steal for their better life? Or do you restrict your permissions for others to break the law to only certain offenses?

A better life, fine... but not a better life by taking mine. Legal or no entry.


...you failed to show that it is illegal to recieve less than minimum wage as payment.

I did succeed at one thing: showing your "arguments" for what they are.

You took a statement of legal effect and tried to twist it into a statement of legal wording... yes, you are correct there is no specific statement in the law that penalizes one for receiving below minimum wage; the legal wording makes it illegal for an employer to pay less than minimum wage. The wording is irrelevant because the only way to receive less than minimum wage is for someone to pay less than minimum wage and thereby violate the US Labor Laws.

You then twisted things around to show that a contractor can charge whatever they want, even if the result is less than minimum wage. But you fail to understand (or admit) that a contractor is not an employee. In the process, you even went so far as to insinuate that an employer can circumvent paying minimum wage to employees by using a form 1099 instead of form W-2.

Notice to anyone reading this: That is strictly ILLEGAL. Do not try this at home; you will be heavily fined and possibly arrested!


We have no roots...we are a nation of immigrants...our culture is a hodgepodge of every other culture.

I believe my Indian forefathers would have a disagreement with that.

You do realize the same argument (native tribes notwithstanding) applies to Mexico, Central America, Canada, Japan, a great deal of Africa, Australia, ad infinutum? Mexico was not originally Spanish - that started with the Conquistadors.


I know you think highly of yourself. I learned that during Fukushima.



Yeah, I'm sure you would prefer that everyone else think lowly of themselves. That way no one would challenge your utopian dreams.

TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

You specifically seem to really fear competition in the job market from immigrants....this was exactly my point of the entire thread.

Thanks for helping me prove my point.


What I dont get is this. NOT ONCE have you spread the desire for Mexicans,to fix their problems at home,to make their Country,a Utopia,where illegals from EVERY Country,want to live and work there...........

Fact is,you have failed,to show what the conditions are in Mexico,and WHY they come here. Dont you think you should fix Mexicos Problems,before you try to hammer on Americas problems? Its not like Americans are sweeping into Mexico.............




BTW,Why dont Immigrants from South America,STAY in Mexico ?

Heres the facts,you dont want to address.......




Deny Ignorance



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 09:22 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher

I get paid with 1099's all the time. Currently 3 of my contracts are being paid through 1099's. When I have sub-contractors of my own...I pay them through 1099's.

You have a business, not a job. You are paid via contract, not via wages. You pay contractors, not employees.

The scary part is you don't seem to know the difference.


So go ahead and go take that job using a 1099 for less than minimum wage...it's not illegal...so go ahead and do it.

Before you get someone in deep doo-doo over this... read what the IRS has to say about this subject:

Question: What is the difference between a Form W-2 and a Form 1099-MISC?

Answer: Both of these forms are called information returns.

The Form W-2 is used by employers to:
  • Report wages, tips and other compensation paid to an employee.
  • Report the employee's income tax and Social Security taxes withheld and any advanced earned income credit payments.
  • Report wage information to the employee, and the Social Security Administration. The Social Security Administration shares the information with the Internal Revenue Service.

A Form 1099-MISC is:
  • Used generally to report payments made in the course of a trade or business to a person who is not an employee or to an unincorporated business.
  • Required when payments of $10 or more in gross royalties or $600 or more in rents or compensation are made.
  • Provided by the payer to the IRS and the person or business that received the payment.
Source


Question: How do you determine if a worker is an employee or an independent contractor?

Answer: The determination can be complex, but is based on whether the person for whom the services are performed has the right to control how the worker performs the services. It is not based merely on how the worker is paid, how often they are paid, or whether they work part-time or full-time.
Source

Of course, they are probably wrong too.


TheRedneck



posted on Jun, 20 2012 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by OutKast Searcher
 


I personally don't mind immigrants being in our country and working...as long as it is all legal. As for the immigrants working harder than many Americans....that is so true...for some. However there are many Americans that work just as hard.

I am curious...are you formerly an immigrant?



posted on Jun, 21 2012 @ 05:27 AM
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Originally posted by jheated5
Lets put it into real simple terms, which will fly over liberals heads as always.... Employer pays you 10 dollars an hr as a citizen and offers 7 dollars to the illegal alien this is what happens afterwards.... 2 dollars is taken for your income tax, 1 dollar for you property tax/rent, 1 dollar for car insurance, 1 dollar for health insurance and lets say 3 or 4 dollars for food and necessities..... So after all that money put into the system you are left with about 2 dollars of that 10......

Now the illegal was paid 3 dollars less than you but are not bound to our system or laws, they don't have income tax, property tax, car insurance or health insurance.... Sure they may have to pay lets say 1 dollar out of that on sales tax and that's all we'll see.......

So in all actuality they are actually making more than the american citizen you are bringing home 2 dollars after paying into the system and they are bringing in 6 even if you are making 3 dollars more..... That is how the system works and why people are getting ticked off...... Oh yeah some of that money out of you check is going to the people making more than you feeding off the system, nevermind that though....


The illegal gets the job for $7.00 per hour, still has taxes taken out of his/her check (unless they are being paid cash under the table) and still has to buy food, wash clothes, buy gas to get to work, buy car insurance (where most of them don't) and pay rent and utilities. That's just a fact of life.



posted on Jun, 21 2012 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by macman
 




They are rewarded with staying here. Your willful ignorance is sad.


They are deported if caught...doesn't seem like much of a reward to me.


No, no there are not. They are told the process is starting, then turn to the press with sob stories and are granted special permissions to stay.

If they are here ILLEGALLY, and can identify themselves to the Govt, so they can get the special work permit, then why are they not deported instead?

Ignorance.



posted on Jun, 21 2012 @ 08:11 AM
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Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

But almost everyone in this thread that claims they are fine with "legal" immigrants also say the absolutely don't support making it easier for people to come here legally.

Please show me where it is stated that a member stated specifically they did not want the process easier or streamlined?
The process is the process. So, with your logic, since it is hard/difficult, it can be circumvented with no recourse. Ok Mr. Open Borders.




Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Your fear of immigrants is so evident that it isn't even funny. You are hateful and down right ugly with your attitude towards hard working people. I honestly do believe they scare the hell out of you.

I fear no man. Don't ever forget that.
I don't fear ILLEGALS Mr. Alinksy, nice try though.
I am tired of seeing ILLEGALS made into a special class of people, that are allowed to violate laws, only to have people like you lecture from on high about how downtrodden they are, and if I am against them, then I am a racist and a hater. You have nothing else to fall back to. You know what they are doing is wrong. Breaking the law is breaking the law.




Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Admit it...deep down you know you don't stand a chance against an immigrant worker...their drive and determination comes from a place that you don't and can't even understand.

The more you post, the more you sound like some 2 bit lawyer for La Raza.
Drive and determination does not solely live in the hearts of the ILLEGAL. What a disgusting blanket statement from someone that preaches like they walk on water.
I don't fear them, or their work ability.



Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
But, you shouldn't project your own flaws on others and turn that into hate and demonization of honest hard working people...you should try to fix your own charater flaws and let go of your hate.

I think you would be a happier person if you just gave it a try.


Same Alinsky style tactics. Attack and deflect. We are not talking about my flaws.
We are talking about ILLEGALS. Go back and retake the semester of Psychology, or get your money back, as it does not work.
edit on 21-6-2012 by macman because: (no reason given)





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