Vagina remarks, silencing of Michigan lawmakers draws firestorm online.

Ten years ago this woman in a waiting room kept saying the word penis. I said the word vagina and she got offended. Strange sexism still going strong.

Aren't republicans the ones always yelling that the government is too big? How they value personal freedom? But they want to regulate abortions?

Doesn't make much sense.

reply to post by RealSpoke


you mean like being pro life and pro war?

or pro life and kill abortion doctors?

.... and pro death penalty.

How is this for cognitive dissonance?

www.thedailyshow.com...

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by TinkerHaus

Sure, yeah. I know a few women who've had abortions.. I'm not talking about who these women are - I'm merely stating the fact that most abortions are due to irresponsible behavior, and not a health concern for mother or child. If you have evidence to the contrary please share.

You can't make a false statement then ask someone else to prove that it's not false. That's a logical fallacy.


The fact of the matter is no one knows why the majority of abortions occur because it's a private matter. Your own perceptions of morality have absolutely no bearing on any women's bodies.

Actually, there is LOTS of data on it.

Don't misuse fancy terms you learned in highschool debate on ME.

• Nearly half of pregnancies among American women are unintended, and about four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion.[1] Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion.

• Forty percent of pregnancies among white women, 67% among blacks and 53% among Hispanics are unintended.[1] • In 2008, 1.21 million abortions were performed, down from 1.31 million in 2000. However, between 2005 and 2008, the long-term decline in abortions stalled. From 1973 through 2008, nearly 50 million legal abortions occurred.

• Each year, two percent of women aged 15–44 have an abortion. Half have had at least one previous abortion.[2,3]

• At least half of American women will experience an unintended pregnancy by age 45, and, at current rates, one in 10 women will have an abortion by age 20, one in four by age 30 and three in 10 by age 45.[4,5]

And, more directly:

• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[7]

I'm not just piddling around spouting lies and misconceptions. I do read and research issues I am concerned about, and this is one of them. Thanks for attempting to discredit me without doing a shred of research, though. Very responsible.

Source

The available statistics all back up everything I've claimed in this thread. If you have a single or multiple points you'd like to dispute, please bring them to my attention and I'll cite some reference for you.

Originally posted by earthdude
Ten years ago this woman in a waiting room kept saying the word penis. I said the word vagina and she got offended. Strange sexism still going strong.

Last week I ate an Apple that had a bug in it. I was surprised, but a little extra protein won't hurt.
This proves that ALL Apples on the planet have bugs in them and it's a major problem for every single person. Damn Apples!

Originally posted by RealSpoke
Aren't republicans the ones always yelling that the government is too big? How they value personal freedom? But they want to regulate abortions?

Doesn't make much sense.

edit on 19-6-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

Indeed, from my experience it seems Republicans are all for personal freedom and rights, as long as you are a white, heterosexual, Christian male Republican. All others are expected to submit to the will of the Republican party and conform to their own special brand of "freedom and liberty for all (some)".

While I don't much like either in your two-party system, the Republicans are the most hypocritical.

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by RealSpoke
Aren't republicans the ones always yelling that the government is too big? How they value personal freedom? But they want to regulate abortions?

Doesn't make much sense.

edit on 19-6-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

Indeed, from my experience it seems Republicans are all for personal freedom and rights, as long as you are a white, heterosexual, Christian male Republican. All others are expected to submit to the will of the Republican party and conform to their own special brand of "freedom and liberty for all (some)".

While I don't much like either in your two-party system, the Republicans are the most hypocritical.

Last week I ate an Apple that had a bug in it. I was surprised, but a little extra protein won't hurt.
This proves that ALL Apples on the planet have bugs in them and it's a major problem for every single person. Damn Apples!

lol

Originally posted by TinkerHaus

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by RealSpoke
Aren't republicans the ones always yelling that the government is too big? How they value personal freedom? But they want to regulate abortions?

Doesn't make much sense.

edit on 19-6-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

Indeed, from my experience it seems Republicans are all for personal freedom and rights, as long as you are a white, heterosexual, Christian male Republican. All others are expected to submit to the will of the Republican party and conform to their own special brand of "freedom and liberty for all (some)".

While I don't much like either in your two-party system, the Republicans are the most hypocritical.

Last week I ate an Apple that had a bug in it. I was surprised, but a little extra protein won't hurt.
This proves that ALL Apples on the planet have bugs in them and it's a major problem for every single person. Damn Apples!

lol

There is a big difference between making a generalized statement about 50% of the Human population, and the proven actions, legislation, meddling and public statements made by a political party.
I can make that generalization about a political party because their stated opinions are on record and their actions can be seen by all.

In addition, I don't think many will understand you quoting my post as a reply to my second comment. Just saying you might want to be more clear in that if you want people to understand your point. Even if that point is null and void

You're welcome.

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by TinkerHaus

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by RealSpoke
Aren't republicans the ones always yelling that the government is too big? How they value personal freedom? But they want to regulate abortions?

Doesn't make much sense.

edit on 19-6-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

Indeed, from my experience it seems Republicans are all for personal freedom and rights, as long as you are a white, heterosexual, Christian male Republican. All others are expected to submit to the will of the Republican party and conform to their own special brand of "freedom and liberty for all (some)".

While I don't much like either in your two-party system, the Republicans are the most hypocritical.

Last week I ate an Apple that had a bug in it. I was surprised, but a little extra protein won't hurt.
This proves that ALL Apples on the planet have bugs in them and it's a major problem for every single person. Damn Apples!

lol

There is a big difference between making a generalized statement about 50% of the Human population, and the proven actions, legislation, meddling and public statements made by a political party.
I can make that generalization about a political party because their stated opinions are on record and their actions can be seen by all.

In addition, I don't think many will understand you quoting my post as a reply to my second comment. Just saying you might want to be more clear in that if you want people to understand your point. Even if that point is null and void

You're welcome.

You understood my point, that was my goal.

I'm not here to pander to the masses. =]

You were talking about individuals with a political affiliation, not the GOP.. So what the PARTY says and what the INDIVIDUAL says are the same to you. Glad to see you are so perceptive. You clearly said "republicans" and not "the republican party." I just thought it was funny as the post you made IMMEDIATELY before criticized people who make generalizations. I love hypocrisy, it makes me lol.

And as far as pointing out blatant, immediate hypocrisy, you're welcome.

For the record, both major parties are full of dirtbags and good people. The partly line is the wrong line. I am not a Republican or a Democrat, THEY ARE THE SAME.

Originally posted by TinkerHaus

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by TinkerHaus

Originally posted by detachedindividual

Originally posted by RealSpoke
Aren't republicans the ones always yelling that the government is too big? How they value personal freedom? But they want to regulate abortions?

Doesn't make much sense.

edit on 19-6-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)

Indeed, from my experience it seems Republicans are all for personal freedom and rights, as long as you are a white, heterosexual, Christian male Republican. All others are expected to submit to the will of the Republican party and conform to their own special brand of "freedom and liberty for all (some)".

While I don't much like either in your two-party system, the Republicans are the most hypocritical.

Last week I ate an Apple that had a bug in it. I was surprised, but a little extra protein won't hurt.
This proves that ALL Apples on the planet have bugs in them and it's a major problem for every single person. Damn Apples!

lol

There is a big difference between making a generalized statement about 50% of the Human population, and the proven actions, legislation, meddling and public statements made by a political party.
I can make that generalization about a political party because their stated opinions are on record and their actions can be seen by all.

In addition, I don't think many will understand you quoting my post as a reply to my second comment. Just saying you might want to be more clear in that if you want people to understand your point. Even if that point is null and void

You're welcome.

You understood my point, that was my goal.

I'm not here to pander to the masses. =]

You were talking about individuals with a political affiliation, not the GOP.. So what the PARTY says and what the INDIVIDUAL says are the same to you. Glad to see you are so perceptive. You clearly said "republicans" and not "the republican party." I just thought it was funny as the post you made IMMEDIATELY before criticized people who make generalizations. I love hypocrisy, it makes me lol.

And as far as pointing out blatant, immediate hypocrisy, you're welcome.

For the record, both major parties are full of dirtbags and good people. The partly line is the wrong line. I am not a Republican or a Democrat, THEY ARE THE SAME.

edit on 19-6-2012 by TinkerHaus because: (no reason given)

At least we agree that both parties are the same.

However, I will not vote for a party that supports the oppression of gay citizens, wants to preach their religion to the masses, wants to profiteer from the people through unbalanced business legislation, wants to restrict and limit the freedoms of the citizens depending on socioeconomic environment... by voting for a party you are agreeing with their sentiments.

It might be different if one were to disagree on a minor policy of a particular party, and make a concession to vote for them based on other valid points. But the Republican party is known for expressing extreme conservative views in almost every respect.

Voting Republican is a mark of support for increased Christian control of the population, increased corruption in banking and business, increased economic disparity, increased threat to the rights of women to choose, increased threat to the LGBT communities when it comes to equality... I could go on.

The fact that so many vote for such a party either shows their lack of comprehension or their support for the majority of their policies.

I do not support the two-party system, but Americans seem to. They repeatedly vote for one or the other without demanding more choice, a moderate path, alternatives that actually reflect their own beliefs. That tells me that the majority who do vote Republican are more than happy to support their white, male, Heterosexual, Christian ideals.

PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN............LOL

I forgot to mention earlier, I did some research on this bill..

Sheba, your claims that it would prohibit abortions after 20 weeks if there was a health concern is false. That is in fact the ONLY provision in the bill for having an abortion beyond 20 weeks, when the mother's health is at risk.

I knew there was something wrong when you kept saying this - but didn't feel comfortable disputing it until I had the facts.

Here's a site that is AGAINST this bill, that states this very clearly.

thinkprogress.org...

The bill in it's entirety: www.legislature.mi.gov...


And again, I want to reiterate that the bill that PASSED does not contain this legilsation. This is a three-part bill, the restrictions after the 20th week are in HIB 5713, linked above. This bill has been put on the back burner so it can be discussed further before a vote.

reply to post by TinkerHaus

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
She could just as easily have said "the female body" in place of "vagina" but she chose her words in an attempt to insinuate that the legislature was after HER VAGINA.

So, if she had said, "the female body", do you think she would have been allowed to continue to speak?

This representative was dramatically calling attention to parts of her anatomy that should NOT BE DISCUSSED on the legislative floor.

Every woman has one. Even Brown. What better way to bring home her point than to make it personal? She illustrated that they're not just talking about some anonymous woman "out there", they're talking about personally imposing law on HER VAGINA.

If the boys can't handle it, they should stay out of it and mind their own business.

Why do you keep trying to assert that the dreaded republicans are trying to censor the female body?

Oh... I don't know... Maybe this as a start...

In 24 States the GOP Enacted a record 92 Abortion Restrictions in 2011
The GOP Tries to Redifine Rape
Georgia GOP Wants to Change "Rape Victim" to "Accuser"
South Dakota Moves to Legalize Killing Abortion Doctors
House GOP passes "Let Women Die" Act

There's the Planned Parenthood fiasco, the birth control issue and the opposition of the Violence Against Women Act... I mean, it goes on and on... I don't agree with the "War on Women" nomenclature, though. It should be the Crusade to Control Women...

Gah, the idiocy of the pro-rights people almost makes me want to egg an abortion clinic.

I know what you mean! Imagine wanting everyone to have access to their rights! It's disgusting, huh? Oh, by the way, look it up - Thanks to the GOP, you're probably within your rights to egg an abortion clinic.

reply to post by narwahl


HAHAHA BRO CHOICE,,,that was classic,thanks

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by TinkerHaus

 

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
She could just as easily have said "the female body" in place of "vagina" but she chose her words in an attempt to insinuate that the legislature was after HER VAGINA.

So, if she had said, "the female body", do you think she would have been allowed to continue to speak?

This representative was dramatically calling attention to parts of her anatomy that should NOT BE DISCUSSED on the legislative floor.

Every woman has one. Even Brown. What better way to bring home her point than to make it personal? She illustrated that they're not just talking about some anonymous woman "out there", they're talking about personally imposing law on HER VAGINA.

If the boys can't handle it, they should stay out of it and mind their own business.

Why do you keep trying to assert that the dreaded republicans are trying to censor the female body?

Oh... I don't know... Maybe this as a start...

In 24 States the GOP Enacted a record 92 Abortion Restrictions in 2011
The GOP Tries to Redifine Rape
Georgia GOP Wants to Change "Rape Victim" to "Accuser"
South Dakota Moves to Legalize Killing Abortion Doctors
House GOP passes "Let Women Die" Act

There's the Planned Parenthood fiasco, the birth control issue and the opposition of the Violence Against Women Act... I mean, it goes on and on... I don't agree with the "War on Women" nomenclature, though. It should be the Crusade to Control Women...

Gah, the idiocy of the pro-rights people almost makes me want to egg an abortion clinic.

I know what you mean! Imagine wanting everyone to have access to their rights! It's disgusting, huh? Oh, by the way, look it up - Thanks to the GOP, you're probably within your rights to egg an abortion clinic.

edit on 6/19/2012 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)

Yes, had she been respectful and not accused the other representatives of wanting access to her vagina she would have been allowed to speak. Byrum shouldn't have shouted out "VASECTOMY!" at the top of her lungs, after throwing a 10 minute tantrum.

Yes, every woman has a vagina. Does that mean that every woman should walk around accusing people of wanting to rape them? I'll tell you what - if I knew a girl like that I would avoid all contact with her. If she was trying to speak in my house I would silence her, or have her removed. Every man has a penis, that doesn't mean we can walk around accusing people of wanted to touch it.

And again, I've been doing some research on this bill..

The bill that passed the MI House is really, really tame. You guys haven't read the bill. You are against it because you are on a bandwagon, and the other passengers TELL YOU TO BE AGAINST IT.

Not one person in this forum has read this bill, I would bet money on it. Well, except me.

This bill serves to promote safety and to discourage malpractice. What this bill does:

*Requires a doctor to be present during the procedure.

*Requires abortion clinics that carry out more than FIVE abortions a month or that have been the defendant in two or more civil suits in the last seven years to have malpractice insurance.

*Requires abortion clinics that carry out more than SIX abortions a month to be registered as an outpatient surgical center. So they are required to register as and comply with the same regulations as a surgical center. That's good for it's patients, no?


It's funny to see women in pink shirts with a sign depicting a metal coat hanger, with the words "NEVER AGAIN" written on it.. When the bill that past is actually moving them further away from this.



This is all a bunch of sensational nonsense, and my next step is to follow the money. WHO is donating to the major opponents of this bill? I would be willing to bet it's the abortion industry!

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Every woman has one. Even Brown. What better way to bring home her point than to make it personal? She illustrated that they're not just talking about some anonymous woman "out there", they're talking about personally imposing law on HER VAGINA.

If the boys can't handle it, they should stay out of it and mind their own business.

Or maybe you girls should stop giving it away so freely. =]

Takes two to tango, sweetheart.


I know you've been taught to wrap this argument in this particular packaging, but NONE of the laws passed in this bill "impose laws on HER VAGINA."

Rather, they impose laws on abortion clinics. I linked the bill above, you should read it so you can know what you're talking about. Just like Rep. Brown you are using inflammatory, inaccurate, emotionally charged wording that is inaccurate and inappropriate.


Rabid activists with limited understanding of what they protest - gooood stuff.


Let me ask you a question. Florida State has a massive problem with pill dispensaries. Because they are so unregulated new ones pop up every day. There are areas in Florida where there are more dispensaries than there are fast food joints. People can hit up multiple dispensaries in a day, and either ingest or distribute their haul.

The reason there are so many of these dispensaries is lack of regulation/oversight. These are dirty little strip mall centers that require very little evidence that you need a prescription. Their goal is PROFIT, not health, cleanliness, or responsible medical behaviors.

Do you think Florida should regulate their dispensaries? Please answer honestly.

Explanation: :shk:

I will just quote these 2 questions from the OP here ...

Do you agree that this level of blatant and unwarranted censorship is beyond reprehensible?

If yes ... what immediate constitionally backed actions would you as a citizen take against the perpetrators of such outrageous crimes agaisn't free speech!?

... and bring a gentle reminder also from the OP ...

Remember to please focus on the CENSORSHIP and avoid the derailing topics of womens rights and abortion.

Thanks.

Now lets revisit the facts ... 2 Representatives [who were the only ones from the affected demographic allowed to speak upon this issue at that government venue etc.] did the following ...

1] Representative A who made a medical reference to part of their anatomy to make a point about personal sovereignty and dignity and that was taken as poor form and Representative A has been gagged as a result.

2] Representative B who enthusiastically vocally advertized their own bill [which was insightfully and spitefully done] at the 'wrong' point in time [for maximum exposure] was also gagged as a result!

Personal Disclosure: I of course believe that Representative A was UNFAIRLY GAGGED!

I also believe that Representative B should serve their time of censorship ... although I completely agree with what they did when the did it.

What would I do? I'd make sure I get involved in my local council and make sure that my community and its COUNTY were so shmicko perfect that the state and the fed never ever need to legislate or spend money on it!

reply to post by OmegaLogos


OL, any representative CAN speak. These were the only two that CHOSE to do so. And they chose to be irreverent and disrespectful.


I apologize this thing got so off topic. I really did try to stay on target, but the conversation quickly went into an abortion rights debate.

I do want to point out that the bill is only 8 pages long, and can be read in it's entirety in about 10 minutes. Read it twice just so you know it.

www.legislature.mi.gov...

It seems to me like the feminist groups have blown this WAY out of proportion. This bill very clearly preserves the rights of mothers and raises the standard of care they should receive at an abortion clinic.

Is it HB5711 or HB5713? Which bill were they discussing? Answer:

Last week, state Rep. Lisa Brown (D) was gaveled out of order while speaking against a package of abortion bills (HB 5711, HB 5712, HB 5713).

Source

reply to post by TinkerHaus

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
Yes, had she been respectful and not accused the other representatives of wanting access to her vagina she would have been allowed to speak.

So, if she had said "the female body" instead of the word "vagina", it would have been appropriate... And here I thought you were arguing that it WASN'T the word vagina that got her booted. Are you saying it was the personalization of it that went over the line?

Yes, every woman has a vagina. Does that mean that every woman should walk around accusing people of wanting to rape them?

What's this about? Who accused anyone of rape? Don't change the subject.

Every man has a penis, that doesn't mean we can walk around accusing people of wanted to touch it.

Again, stick to the facts. No one said anything about touching anything. If someone was legislating penis laws, you'd have every right to ask that people leave your penis alone. And, I would be supporting you ALL the way.

What this bill does:

You're either being extremely naive or purposely leaving out some important aspects of the bill. (now I see you weren't aware that they were discussing multiple bills.)

HB 5711 was introduced on May 31, and passed by the House Committee on Health Policy last week. It ties together a number of previously introduced bills and would amend Michigan's Public Health code to restrict and regulate abortion in the the state of Michigan. The legislation would put in place new insurance and licensing requirements for clinics; ban abortions that take place more than 20 weeks after conception except when the procedure would save a woman's life; make it illegal to coerce a woman to have an abortion; set guidelines for disposing of the remains of a fetus; and regulate the prescription of the RU-486 drug.

Source

They want to control women and what they do with their own bodies.

This has GOT to stop! I hope women shout from their rooftops, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore! Vagina"!

By the way, Since Roe V Wade, women have been saying "keep your legislation out of my uterus" and not silenced for it... You're right, it's not the word vagina that caused the problem. It's the fact that a woman said it in opposition. We can't have women standing up and being so.... brave.