If You Dare

Everyone seems to jump on the "Anti-Abortion" bandwagon but never do people think about girls who are raped and in the process get prego. How would one be able to carry a child that bears such a heavy situation on it. Then try to explain who the childs dad is to the child, "oh some man that forced sex on me"

yeah im on the fence about it. Having one just because you're 16 and didnt make your boyfriend wear a condom isn't a good enough reason.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

I guess I always just come back to this: You dont like abortion. So dont have one. Why on earth do you think it is your place to dictate what others can/should do? No pro-choice people are out there trying to force others to have them. Yet the anti-choice crowd wants to force others to not be able to. Why is that? Why does it have to be a matter of, like the op said, "showing you why you should be against it". Why do you think you should be trying to scare/disgust people into changing their opinion? To each his own, and shame on anyone who thinks that they know what is right and wrong for any other person.

I am totally against abortion. Not against any ones right to do so. You have a right to commit murder. My hope is only to dissuade people from making use of that right.

edit on 17-6-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

And this is what is wrong with this thread, how about stop ! Stop now, and just accept that it is not your job to persuade a fellow human in any direction, especially with something so emotive, and so individual.

This thread seriously should be closed down in my opinion, because there will be people for whom this thread offends, especially when you consider miscarriage, so tell me who has "murdered the baby" when a miscarriage occurs ?!

I'm sorry but this is just another duplicate thread, of an age old argument, that just is just plain divisive !

Originally posted by solargeddon

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

I guess I always just come back to this: You dont like abortion. So dont have one. Why on earth do you think it is your place to dictate what others can/should do? No pro-choice people are out there trying to force others to have them. Yet the anti-choice crowd wants to force others to not be able to. Why is that? Why does it have to be a matter of, like the op said, "showing you why you should be against it". Why do you think you should be trying to scare/disgust people into changing their opinion? To each his own, and shame on anyone who thinks that they know what is right and wrong for any other person.

I am totally against abortion. Not against any ones right to do so. You have a right to commit murder. My hope is only to dissuade people from making use of that right.

edit on 17-6-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

And this is what is wrong with this thread, how about stop ! Stop now, and just accept that it is not your job to persuade in a fellow human in any direction, especially with something so emotive, and so individual.

This thread seriously should be closed down in my opinion, because there will be people for whom this thread offends, especially when you consider miscarriage, so tell me who has "murdered the baby" when a miscarriage occurs ?!

I'm sorry but this is just another duplicate thread, of an age old argument, that just is just plain divisive !

Who said miscarriages are murder? This is not a choice by the mother, rather a tragic death not controlled by anyone but nature.

Good luck shutting the thread down, there are many who are just as offended by your type of thinking.

reply to post by solargeddon

This thread seriously should be closed down in my opinion, because there will be people for whom this thread offends, especially when you consider miscarriage, so tell me who has "murdered the baby" when a miscarriage occurs ?!

First off, people who would be offended by it need to not read it. Otherwise, they should make themselves less easy to offend.

And to illustrate the flaw in your logic just to keep the pot well-stirred; people die daily of natural causes, some inexplicable. Extending your reasoning here, that should mean we don't worry about actual murder cases anymore just because people die naturally, sometimes even with us being unable to figure out why?

Originally posted by PeterWiggin
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

Fair enough, but are you telling me no one throughout human history has ever changed their opinion or realized they may not have thought a matter fully through or considered all angles when additional information was presented to them, a new angle was shared, explanations were couched in different terms, or a person with a different way of thinking on a matter spoke with them about it?

Just like you preach about abortion here, if you don't like the thread, don't read it. The OP is not forcing anything on anyone, and is just as free to relay his opinion as you are yours.

You say shame on these people, but I didn't see OP here doing anything wrong - so I say shame on you. I shudder to think what this world would be like if everyone merely always continued thinking what they think and the same way they already did instead of discussing issues and trying to see new viewpoints or consider new information.

Talk about stagnation and ignorance. People are free to talk and share, just as they're free to ignore and disregard. I suggest you would be better served by exercising the latter in this case instead of trying to shame discourse.

1)No Im not saying that. I am asking why people think it is their place to try and change said opinion.

2)Please quote for me where I am preaching about anything.

3)Where did I say I dont like the thread? I offered a counter opinion.

4)To tell somewhat that they should believe as you do, is shameful.

5)I dont think I will. I think i will continue to DISCUSS, as I have been, which is what you are "preaching" for. Because my opinion differs, does not make it less of a discussion.

reply to post by PeterWiggin


Well if you look at the thread title, itdoesn't indicate anything about its content.

Second of all, I only said it should be shut donw, I didn't say I would be running to a mod.

Thirdly of course miscarriage is decided by nature, but the point I am trying to make is that for the individuals that it occurs to, it is absoluetly horrific, and they would really love an answer to the reason why, but seeing that video, might also make someone think about how the unborn child is affected when it is miscarried. Or do we not spare a thought, and believe there wasn't any trauma involved, because nature decided ?

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

Also, science, and the law, say it isnt murder to abort a baby, not me.

Exactly my whole friggen point of what I have written. we can see for ourselves that it is absolutely murder. What evil would say it isn't ?

Thanks for abandoning the word force for the more proper dissuade BTW.

No, you OPINE that it is murder. Nothing more.

Originally posted by Wookiep

Originally posted by solargeddon

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

I guess I always just come back to this: You dont like abortion. So dont have one. Why on earth do you think it is your place to dictate what others can/should do? No pro-choice people are out there trying to force others to have them. Yet the anti-choice crowd wants to force others to not be able to. Why is that? Why does it have to be a matter of, like the op said, "showing you why you should be against it". Why do you think you should be trying to scare/disgust people into changing their opinion? To each his own, and shame on anyone who thinks that they know what is right and wrong for any other person.

I am totally against abortion. Not against any ones right to do so. You have a right to commit murder. My hope is only to dissuade people from making use of that right.

edit on 17-6-2012 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

And this is what is wrong with this thread, how about stop ! Stop now, and just accept that it is not your job to persuade in a fellow human in any direction, especially with something so emotive, and so individual.

This thread seriously should be closed down in my opinion, because there will be people for whom this thread offends, especially when you consider miscarriage, so tell me who has "murdered the baby" when a miscarriage occurs ?!

I'm sorry but this is just another duplicate thread, of an age old argument, that just is just plain divisive !

Who said miscarriages are murder? This is not a choice by the mother, rather a tragic death not controlled by anyone but nature.

Good luck shutting the thread down, there are many who are just as offended by your type of thinking.

So a mother miscarries do to improper nutrition. Is that nature, or the mother, who caused it?

reply to post by Wookiep


I never said I was offended (I insinuated some people may be).

You have already made clear what side of the fence you sit on, I really don't think you needed to try to discredit me, unless I raised a valid point.

Point is, this in the rant section, so I can vent, just as much as you can

If the fetus is simply a growth within a woman, like a tumor, then what she does with it is her business and everybody should shut up and mind their own business.
But if it is a child, a human being then no one should shut up. How does it go? "Remaining silent when we should speak makes cowards of us all.
"IF" that growth is a child unable to speak for itself then everyone needs to speak up against what, despite the labels applied, is murder, pure and simple.
But we know it is not a child
We know because the doctors and scientists have told us so.
And doctors and scientist are never, never wrong.

So what if no one actually knows?
Would you back your car up if there "might" be a child underneath or behind it?
Would you need to know for sure before you refused to move it?
Or would the thought "there 'might be' a child behind or underneath it" be enough to stop you?

Real simple. Unless you "know", not guess, not assume, not hope, but "know" that what is being removed from a woman is simply tissue growth then you must concede you "may" be killing a helpless child.
Can you live with even that thought? Not that you did kill a child but that you may have?
Unless of course you "know" it's not a child yet which leaves me wondering...how do you "know". Did you speak to God or are you trusting our infallible scientists?

Just my two cents

Originally posted by solargeddon
reply to post by Wookiep

 

I never said I was offended (I insinuated some people may be).

You have already made clear what side of the fence you sit on, I really don't think you needed to try to discredit me, unless I raised a valid point.

Point is, this in the rant section, so I can vent, just as much as you can

I'm trying to gain some insight as to why it got moved to rant /I thought it was fine as a social issue.

reply to post by randyvs


Perhaps it was the title ?

Have no idea, seriously, when I clicked on it your thread was a rant, never knew it had ever been in another section......mods eh !

reply to post by captaintyinknots

1)No Im not saying that. I am asking why people think it is their place to try and change said opinion.

Again, fair enough - but conversely, then: why do you think it's your place to encourage them otherwise? Why is it anyone's place to try to provoke changes of mind or opinion?

Because we disagree, and we feel matters are important. People will always try to sway others to their view, and away from those that conflict with it. It's part of humanity, and silly to ask why or to argue the necessity (in at least some cases).

2)Please quote for me where I am preaching about anything.

Preach:
2: to urge acceptance or abandonment of an idea or course of action...

I would say that sums up the point of your post I responded to fairly succinctly.

3)Where did I say I dont like the thread? I offered a counter opinion.

That's the overt vibe I got from your post. My apologies if I misunderstood.

4)To tell somewhat that they should believe as you do, is shameful.

I can agree with this for the most part. I believe we should discuss, debate, and reason amongst one another. But I also believe that pretty much everyone, including yourself, does it to one degree or another, although indirectly at times. Regardless...

5)I dont think I will. I think i will continue to DISCUSS, as I have been, which is what you are "preaching" for. Because my opinion differs, does not make it less of a discussion.

Well and good. I only took issue with the scolding tone and the apparent implication, possibly misunderstood on my part, that people should never seek to sway the opinions of others in one direction or another. There is no growth in that.

Originally posted by solargeddon
reply to post by randyvs

 

Perhaps it was the title ?

Have no idea, seriously, when I clicked on it your thread was a rant, never knew it had ever been in another section......mods eh !

Yeah it is a tough thread especially for me. I suppose an apology might be in order for it's offering. At least to those I know I have offended. For some reason that doesn't fee`l quite right either. Maybe it gains more flex in this section anyway. But it feels like something that had to be hidden away. Of which I do disagree.

so I guess I'll concede to the move and refuse to make any further comments.

reply to post by solargeddon

Well if you look at the thread title, itdoesn't indicate anything about its content.

Unless it was moved from its original location, the thread was posted in the rant forum. I didn't know rants needed to meet certain title requirements or disclosures?

Second of all, I only said it should be shut donw, I didn't say I would be running to a mod.

Why on earth would it need to be shut down - just because some people might be offended? I've never been a fan of censorship over such minor quibbles, and if all divisive or offensive topics were shut down at the outset, people would never be able to discuss anything.

And good on your for not running to a mod, I suppose - but is calling for their action honestly much different? It's not like this thread would magically slip through their radar somehow anyway, so drawing their attention would be redundant, especially when the thread doesn't appear to be a violation of T&Cs.

Thirdly of course miscarriage is decided by nature, but the point I am trying to make is that for the individuals that it occurs to, it is absoluetly horrific, and they would really love an answer to the reason why, but seeing that video, might also make someone think about how the unborn child is affected when it is miscarried. Or do we not spare a thought, and believe there wasn't any trauma involved, because nature decided ?

We should spare a thought, and miscarriage is definitely traumatic for all involved (at least in cases where there is awareness of the pregnancy and a desire to maintain it).

But your argument above was still flawed, as the same can extend to the already-born. As well, if we acknowledge the trauma of miscarriage itself - how much more so willful infliction of such?

Thank you for your thoughts, I intend no offense here.

reply to post by PeterWiggin


I couldn't agree more with the last response you made at the end of the last post ( sorry, I am rubbish with quotes).

The point is we all have our own opinion, and sometimes opinion is swayed indirectly by another, but no one should ever seek out to persuade someone in either direction ( although it might be a good idea to dissuade a mate from robbing a bank).

you have your opinion, other's have theirs, and within that there is room for constructive discussion, and critical thinking, who knows it may improve us all in the long run

Originally posted by PeterWiggin
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

1)No Im not saying that. I am asking why people think it is their place to try and change said opinion.

Again, fair enough - but conversely, then: why do you think it's your place to encourage them otherwise? Why is it anyone's place to try to provoke changes of mind or opinion?

Because we disagree, and we feel matters are important. People will always try to sway others to their view, and away from those that conflict with it. It's part of humanity, and silly to ask why or to argue the necessity (in at least some cases).

2)Please quote for me where I am preaching about anything.

Preach:
2: to urge acceptance or abandonment of an idea or course of action...

I would say that sums up the point of your post I responded to fairly succinctly.

3)Where did I say I dont like the thread? I offered a counter opinion.

That's the overt vibe I got from your post. My apologies if I misunderstood.

4)To tell somewhat that they should believe as you do, is shameful.

I can agree with this for the most part. I believe we should discuss, debate, and reason amongst one another. But I also believe that pretty much everyone, including yourself, does it to one degree or another, although indirectly at times. Regardless...

5)I dont think I will. I think i will continue to DISCUSS, as I have been, which is what you are "preaching" for. Because my opinion differs, does not make it less of a discussion.

Well and good. I only took issue with the scolding tone and the apparent implication, possibly misunderstood on my part, that people should never seek to sway the opinions of others in one direction or another. There is no growth in that.

1)How am I encouraging anyone on anything? As I already said, to each his own. So i guess I am encouraging one thing: that people should worry about themselves.

2)Again, please quote for me where I have preached. I know what the word means. I want you to show me where I have done it.

3)Apology accepted.

4)Fair enough....

5)Maybe I didnt state it clearly enough, so Ill try again: Im all for discussion, debate, and disagreement. What I am not ok with is the attitude of "I believe its wrong, so I want you all to change".

reply to post by solargeddon
Thanks for your measured response. I will have to continue to disagree with this, though:

The point is we all have our own opinion, and sometimes opinion is swayed indirectly by another, but no one should ever seek out to persuade someone in either direction ( although it might be a good idea to dissuade a mate from robbing a bank).

Not the bank robbery bit, of course - but I absolutely believe people should seek to persuade others to their views or against actions they think are wrong or harmful. This applies to a good bit of our political applications and many other matters in life. Debate and persuasion is entirely healthy in itself, and in some cases even necessary when simple wrongness presents itself - but there are definitely wrong ways to go about it.

I extend this to you, as well. If you feel something is wrong, harmful, or disgusting - by all means, try to sway others to your opinion and away from such. If you're happy with everyone doing something that offends you strongly, then something is wrong.

However, you cannot FORCE anyone to think or act in a certain way. As you have your liberty, they have theirs - agree or disagree with what that liberty entails. But discussion and persuasion should not be shied away from, merely recognized to have their proper limitations (and practical considerations - there comes a point where in some cases and with some people, all avenues have been exhausted and further discussion is rendered pointless).

I think the mother and father both have to agree to an abortion before it can happen. Why is it the woman's choice when it's the father's child aswell? How many father's were looking forward to having a child and the mother didn't want to ruin her body or some other shallow reason?

Originally posted by MrSandman
I think the mother and father both have to agree to an abortion before it can happen. Why is it the woman's choice when it's the father's child aswell? How many father's were looking forward to having a child and the mother didn't want to ruin her body or some other shallow reason?

And how many mothers were looking forward to having both parents there to raise the kid only to have the father up and take off?

Guarantee that my scenario has happened exponentially more times than yours.