Does god have a goal?

reply to post by Azadok2day


Your event analysis of Revelation is somewhat lacking which could bring confusion upon others so I best correct you on this. Firstly, the Bible says nothing about the Earth being turned into spirit. The 1000 years is spent in the heavenly city (not on Earth) as we mostly review the judgement records of God of those how made it into Heaven and those that didn't so we can see that God is just and merciful. After the 1000 years the heavenly city descends down to the stricken Earth and God raises up all the wicked from their 'sleep' where they will receive Judgment (being erased from existence forever, never to return, as fire consumes them both body and soul until they are nothing but ashes on the ground). The 1000 years for Satan means that he is stuck on the earth with no one to tempt and is bored out of his brain. When God does raise the 'wicked' back to life to receive Judgment, Satan does try to make out that he in fact raised them to life and tries to rally these people to attack the Heavenly city (this is known as the battle of Gog and Magog). Satan also attempts to counterfeit the second coming of Christ as well which is almost the stage of the timeline that we are up to at the moment.

Originally posted by icepack
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Yeshua is the King of Kings, he rules over heaven and earth, the Living and the Dead in him.

i am confused, isn't satan prince of this material plane ? why do christians pray for his kingdom to come if he already rules the earth ? or are you a euphoric believer ?

edit on 16-6-2012 by icepack because: (no reason given)

Satan obtained dominion of the earth after Adam fell. When Yeshua came, he broke Satan's power. Satan is the usurper, Yeshua is the King of All Heaven and Creation. All authority and dominion of those in Heaven, on Earth and under the Earth (Dead) belong to him.

Originally posted by rick004
It is very hard to accept that an all powerful god who supposedly created the universe and everything to do with it , actually cares or has a plan for a few billion ( apparently only Christians ) insignificant war mongering people ????

Man was not created to war. You're seeing the world as it is after sin was introduced. This world is a pale shadow of what it was. He cares about all people, but he has given all mankind a way out through Christ. If you don't take the way he offers out, you have no one to blame but yourself. All christians are, are the word bearers, and messianic jews are a part of the message we bring together of salvation.

reply to post by DakotaCensus


Yes. Goal:

Redeem out a people from every tribe, nation, tongue and culture for His Son for an everlasting inheritance.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


No, Gabriel promised Mary her Son would sit and rule from David's throne in Jerusalem. If His 1st coming prophecies were fulfilled literally then so will His 2nd coming prophecies. The nations He will judge upon His return are listed in Joel ch. 3.

Where do you guys get this bitter hatred for Israel from? Who teaches this stuff? Yes, they are jacked up right now and under spiritual blindness but the last chapter on them says they will come to faith in the end and be redeemed to Christ. Pray for them and bless them, don't curse.

reply to post by ElOmen


Dante put the 'virtuous pagans' at the base of purgatory. They were inflicted with no suffering, but were punished by being denied access to the light of god.

This included every virtuous person who died before Christ was born.

Originally posted by AQ6666
That is an excelent question OP.

...also made that question myself many times before.

I think that God only purpose is to create and feel and learn through his creations.

That is a very positive outlook, thank you for sharing. However, does is not imply that god is lacking in something if learning is god's goal?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Where do you guys get this bitter hatred for Israel from? Who teaches this stuff? Yes, they are jacked up right now and under spiritual blindness but the last chapter on them says they will come to faith in the end and be redeemed to Christ. Pray for them and bless them, don't curse.

They don't see the future like we do man. They don't see the glorious transformation the instant Israel realizes Yeshua is their King and God. It will be a revival like never seen before in history or ever again. Thats what i see, which is why they need to be protected. We of the gentiles obtained salvation first because their hearts were hardened, the way i see it we owe them a debt we can't repay, even if they hate us and call us idolaters and other nefarious things. In the end it doesn't matter because we know how this is going to play out which will be good for mankind.

Originally posted by KenArten
Are we all born imperfect and must we try to die perfect?
Who does this help? Me or the god?

The question this raises for me is imperfect in reference to what? Is god the standard of measure for perfection?

Does the introduction of imperfections in god's creation call god's perfection into question?

Originally posted by DakotaCensus
Non-Christian here, but this is meant as a legitimate question.

Does god have a goal or an overall purpose in mind? Is there something god is working towards, or is god's place stewardship over creation?

The question, I think, applies equally to all monotheistic religions. I'm curious to hear the thoughts of believers.

His goal is to take you higher than you believe possible.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
YHWH just is and he is who he is. Does he have a goal, absolutely he is the Creator. Right now he's working on saving us from ourselves, or as many of us as he can before he pushes the delete button on this dimension. Yeshua is the King of Kings, he rules over heaven and earth, the Living and the Dead in him.

What is it that is preventing god from saving us? I mean where does the limitation on god's power begin?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
YHWH just is and he is who he is. Does he have a goal, absolutely he is the Creator. Right now he's working on saving us from ourselves, or as many of us as he can before he pushes the delete button on this dimension. Yeshua is the King of Kings, he rules over heaven and earth, the Living and the Dead in him.

What is it that is preventing god from saving us? I mean where does the limitation on god's power begin?

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by DakotaCensus

 

God's main goals are:
- draw as many of mankind to Him as possible to follow His ways and go on a serious journey to seek developing a character like Jesus so that we may be suitable to become like the angels in heaven and replace the heavenly angels that were kicked out of Heaven in the rebellion.

Ok, I can kind of see this as a goal. We are given free will but have the opportunity to see and choose god's path. Is that a 'correct' way of putting it?

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by DakotaCensus

 

- To give Lucifer/Satan a chance to show to all the heavenly angels (and the rest of the unfallen worlds) that remained loyal to God just why God kicked him out of Heaven and will administer the just sentence of death upon him. Lucifer sought to rise above the position of Jesus in heaven, to oppose the Divine Law of God that it wasn't necessary, and to be ruler over the heavenly angels and then the rest of the unfallen worlds. Lucifer is given the chance to show his true colors of his character (which only God could see at the time of the rebellion as Lucifer called into question God's character through cunning slanders and deceptions) and just how good he would be as a ruler over the universe through the example of what happens on earth. God does give some limits on what Satan is permitted to be allowed to do to us and God intervenes in various ways as well, independently of us and sometimes when we call upon Him (and he sees that the intervention will help lead them to him)

This one I don't understand. Why is it necessary to demonstrate to the angels who remained loyal that it was the right decision to do so?

Originally posted by DakotaCensus

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
YHWH just is and he is who he is. Does he have a goal, absolutely he is the Creator. Right now he's working on saving us from ourselves, or as many of us as he can before he pushes the delete button on this dimension. Yeshua is the King of Kings, he rules over heaven and earth, the Living and the Dead in him.

What is it that is preventing god from saving us? I mean where does the limitation on god's power begin?

Nothing prevented him from saving us, this is already done, we're just waiting for his earthly kingdom that was postponed 2000 years ago so he could save us. He has no limitation beyond his covenants. He is not nor has he ever been a covenant breaker. He keeps his own word to the letter. He promised he would save us and he fulfilled that role as Yeshua but the majority of the world rejects him.

Originally posted by netgamer7k
The redemption of mankind.

I forget how this story goes again. Who exactly made mankind again?

reply to post by DakotaCensus

The question this raises for me is imperfect in reference to what? Is god the standard of measure for perfection?
Does the introduction of imperfections in god's creation call god's perfection into question?

Ah, that is the very point. If god's creation is perfect, what is its goal and what is our role within that goal? I think imperfection is part of perfection. And how do we measure perfection?

I trust an ancient oriental saying
Ko ko en jo - each (and every) thing is complete (perfect)

So within the entire picture, each thing is what it should be and where it should be. This is like a super-giant jigsaw puzzle where each piece is different and some carry parts of "good" things and others carry parts of "bad" things and others just carry bit of sky to hold it all together. But they all have a perfect place in the whole picture. No great doctor did great work on healthy people. No great warrior stood up against "good" (although many infamous warriors did).

So the question remains, what is the goal of this creation, especially if it is perfect? Man's creation of gods tries to give reason to each jigsaw piece that can be in a lesser or greater position of fortune. Alternatively, if we just accept creation as it is, it will find its own way along and yes, if that is self-annihilation or whatever, then so be it.

We (humans) are not alone in the jigsaw puzzle, it includes every aspect of the Universe from earthquakes on Earth to every black holes even at the other end of space. And it may include other (extraterrestrial) beings - who might or might not have gods, or the same gods. or no gods - although if they shared out god(s), that would be a wonderful confirmation of Earthman's beliefs).

Here is a final question - and I really only have questions.

The ultimate imperfection, entropy, rules supreme; even in the whole Universe and probably in any parallel universes. All thing tend towards decay unless some external influence (the elixir of life?) changes that trend for a while, before the trend continues back towards decay. This creation seems to be programmed for ultimate self-destruction, or at least the part we can perceive in this vastness. At the very least, it is dynamic. So ...
Is creation a continuous process...
or
Was it just the creation of rules (of physics) and the defining of starting conditions, that developed into this magnificent chaos?

In other words, and back to the OP's question, was it the rules of the game and the starting conditions that were the creation (and all else followed), or is this creation still being manipulated by god? In either case.... what is god's goal? - (eg to prove his rules and choice of team and playing field work? or to play the game?)

We will certainly never know for sure, but exploring the options has to be good exercise for minds

reply to post by DakotaCensus

I wanted this to be separate from my earlier post

Does the introduction of imperfections in god's creation call god's perfection into question?

Simple
I have offered no answer to this as the original question in this thread is posed on the assumptions that does god exists, did create the Universe, and has a continuing role in this creation (because he anticipates some result).

To debate the qualities, nature and even personification of the presumed god is outside the exploration proposed and is really another extensive thread of its own and I will happily answer it in such an exploration. To include it here, removes some of the scope of the question posed and within these constraints, any answer I can give you to your question would be incomplete.

That is a very positive outlook, thank you for sharing. However, does is not imply that god is lacking in something if learning is god's goal?

However, if someone says that creation is a learning exercise for god, that could be a relevant goal, but obviously implies that god still has some learning to do. I do not see this as any threat to god's perfection. Maybe wisdom cannot be absolute but wisdom that always moves ahead of ignorance will always be perfect.

I like your nature of probing - constructive and good for the debate. Thank you

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

No, Gabriel promised Mary her Son would sit and rule from David's throne in Jerusalem. If His 1st coming prophecies were fulfilled literally then so will His 2nd coming prophecies. The nations He will judge upon His return are listed in Joel ch. 3.

Where do you guys get this bitter hatred for Israel from? Who teaches this stuff? Yes, they are jacked up right now and under spiritual blindness but the last chapter on them says they will come to faith in the end and be redeemed to Christ. Pray for them and bless them, don't curse.

So what exactly is David's throne in Jerusalem right now?

The only throne that Jesus will rule from is currently in the heavenly city (In Heaven, not currently on this Earth). I don't know why you have such an adversarial and accusing tone against me when the one lacking knowledge in this matter is not me.

Who teaches this stuff?

The Bible teaches this stuff...I wish you would pay more attention to reading it closely. The mistake made in your rational is that you are discounting the time when we return with Jesus in the Holy City (Heaven) at the end of the 1000 years which would be classified as the third coming and not the second coming. The name given to the Holy City will be the new Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2).

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Beginning of the Millennium
- The second Coming of Christ (Rev. 19:11-21)
- The wicked are slain [first death] (Rev. 19:21; 2 Thess. 1:7-8)
- The resurrection of the righteous ("first resurrection" - Rev. 20:4-6; 1 Thess. 4:16-18)
- The righteous taken to Heaven (1 Thess. 4:17; John 14;1-3)
- Satan bound (Revelation 20:1-3)
- Earth desolated (Revelation 20:5; Jer. 4:23-27)

During the Millennium
- Saints reign with Christ in Heaven (Rev.20:4, 6 ; Daniel 7:27)
- Judgment in Heaven: saints review the cases of the lost and the fallen angels (Rev. 20:4; John 14:1-3; 1 Cor. 6:2-3; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6)
- Satan and his angels bound to the uninhabited earth (Rev. 20:1-3)
- Earth remains desolated and in chaos (Is. 24:19-22)

End of the Millennium
- The Holy City descends upon the Earth (Rev. 20;9; 21:2) with Christ and the saints (Zech. 14:9)
- The resurrection of the wicked ("second resurrection"- Rev, 20:5, 13)
- Satan loosed. Attack on the Holy City (Rev. 20:7-9)
- Judgment and destruction of Satan and the wicked (Rev. 20:11-15)
- Earth renewed (Rev. 21:1,2 ; 2 Peter 3:10-14)


Where do you get this idea that God only cares about Christians or Jews and that the Tribulation is only about them? God cares about everyone equally, to have any kind of theology that suggests otherwise is against the gospel message.

I have no bitter hatred for Israel so I don't know why you accuse me of having such a thing. Jews are free to find God just like anyone else, they get no special treatment. They already had heaps of light to find Him and yet their Rabbis curse those amongst them who would seek to number the weeks in Daniel 9. Who should they trust, the opinions of man or the Word of God???

A Sage said: "May the curse of heaven fall upon those who calculate the date of the advent of the Messiah, and thus create political and social unrest among the people." Sanhedrin, 97b. Louis Newman and Samuel Spitz, The Talmudic anthology: tales and teachings of the rabbis (Behrman House, 1945): 277. ISBN 0874413036, 9780874413038

Rabbis after the time of Christ have pronounced a curse on anyone who would attempt to calculate the dates of this chapter. - Talmud Sanhedrin 97b, Soncino ed., p. 659.

HAS MESSIAH COME?
by Avram Yehoshua
A most amazing thing occurs in the ninth chapter of Daniel: we’re told when Messiah would come. But instead of explaining it to us, our Rabbis curse anyone wanting to find it out: ‘Rabbi Samuel b. Nachmani said in the name (of) Rabbi Jonathan: ‘Blasted be the bones of those who calculate the end.’ (1) Some of our Rabbis, in a further attempt to keep us from Daniel, even state that Daniel was wrong. Alfred Edersheim, a Talmudic scholar who would come to know Messiah said, ‘later Rabbinism, which, naturally enough, could not find its way through the Messianic prophecies of the book, declared that even Daniel was mistaken’ (2).

Footnotes to the above:
1 Sanford R. Howard, L’Chayim: Finding The Light of Shalom (Thorsby, AL: Sabbath House, Inc., 1999), p. 209. Sanhedrin 97b, vol. 2, p. 659, Soncino Press. Editorial footnote #6 says, ‘i.e., Messiah’s advent.’
2 Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 2000), p. 957. Bere#h Rabba 98 (a midrash or commentary on Genesis). Edersheim lived from 1825 to 1889 C.E.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Where do you guys get this bitter hatred for Israel from? Who teaches this stuff? Yes, they are jacked up right now and under spiritual blindness but the last chapter on them says they will come to faith in the end and be redeemed to Christ. Pray for them and bless them, don't curse.

They don't see the future like we do man. They don't see the glorious transformation the instant Israel realizes Yeshua is their King and God. It will be a revival like never seen before in history or ever again. Thats what i see, which is why they need to be protected. We of the gentiles obtained salvation first because their hearts were hardened, the way i see it we owe them a debt we can't repay, even if they hate us and call us idolaters and other nefarious things. In the end it doesn't matter because we know how this is going to play out which will be good for mankind.

Interesting... but Jesus Himself said their blindness wasn't permanant. Paul says the same thing, OT prophets speak of the regathering and redemption of Israel during the Day of the Lord and He says specifically in Hosea 5:15 that He will return to His place until they acknowledge their offense against Him and seek His face.


But I would have just taken Christ's word for it, He is sorta the Lord and all.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


The millinium is the re-establishment of the Davidic throne. Duh, Christ is the only person who can do that considering the blood curse on the natural seed of David. (Johiachim) As soon as Christ sits on the mercy seat in Jerusalem the Davidic throne will be established. And right now the Lord is seated on His Father's throne, not David's!!! Lol

Gabriel didnt lie to Mary, her Son will sit upon and rule from David's throne. What do you think you pray for when you pray "Thy kingdom COME..."?