The last twelve verses are missing from the oldest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel

TextWho exactly are these Gnostics and what was their "influence"? They were pretty much done away with in the Forth Century. This is just a fantasy to make it seem like parts were removed, instead of what probably really happened, which was that parts were later added.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Believe it or not there are Gnostic churches in America today. I believe one church id located in WV and I believe there are several more in this country. You can do a Google on this and find the churches. Who exactly are these Gnostics and what was their influence ?

It is my understanding that the Gnostic's existed long before Christianity (about 7,200 years) and that their influence is in our country today. I am not privy to their teachings but am quite certain that they are not compatible with Christianity as I know it. They believe in their own form of spirituality while denying the existence of hell or sin or that Christ Jesus came to atone for our sins. They believe that all of their believers are equal in the mind of God and that Jesus was just sent as an example of human behavior. They also believe in reincarnation and that God is both male and female.

Gnosticism is embedded in all sorts of cults and even mainstream denominations. One good example is the Jehovah Witnesses who deny that Christ Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who was brought forth by the Holy Ghost. They acknowledge that Jesus was another good fella like Buddha and many others but not the same deity as mainstream Christianity. That is Gnostic belief and it is all over this world. It has not been erased as you want to believe.

reply to post by Seede

. . . there are Gnostic churches in America today.

Probably more like neo-gnostics since their writings have resurfaced.
I don't think there is a continuous line of gnostics.

While reading some old literature this thought came to mind concerning the so called older manuscript which was used in the modern day bibles. Of course I am referring to the Sinaiticus manuscript which was scribed in about AD 370. We discussed the errors of this manuscript but did not touch on its existence. It is believed to have been scribed in about AD 370 and was found a thousand years later in a garbage can in Saint Catherines Monastery by Tischendorf. This worthless manuscript was ready to be burned in the furnace of St. Catherine. It also is one of the two oldest manuscripts of which modern scholars use in reference to modern bibles.

It is my opinion, and some others such as myself, that Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts are actually not the oldest manuscript copies but are in fact credited as being the oldest simply because they were the least used. The newer copies may in fact be newer because their parent copies had been worn out. Of course this is not a proven fact but is my opinion.

Between the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts there are over 3,000 contradictions. That is just between the two oldest manuscripts known to exist. That is a very poor and undependable example of truth and the ones which are exemplified as not having Mark 16: 9-20-- These new and modern bibles are referenced by Alexandrian (Egyptian) Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts. The Tyndale New Testament and the 1560 Geneva and the 1611 King James bibles are referenced from the Received Texts which are the Antioch manuscripts.

The sad part of all of this is the fact that most protestant congregations are not taught the history of the very bible that they use much less the church doctrine they set under. In fact most clergy are not taught or do not seem to perceive the importance of their literature. Most congregations have an assortment of bibles and seemingly the entire congregation is not even reading the same literature. No one is on the same page or so it appears in many cases. This embraces confusion and leads to division in thought. Along with this is the fact that through division comes a disinterest in study and eventually the urge to quit attending the church.

reply to post by redneck13


In regards to the resurrection according to the Quran, It says in the Qumran that Jesus was not crucified and that another person was put in his place and made to look like Jesus. Therefore, Jesus was not crucified and resurrected but he ascended to heaven unharmed. Jesus was not a Christ; he was a Muslim prophet just like Mohammed Do Muslims really believe the Qumran to be true in this aspect?

In the Holy Qur'an, not Qumran it is indeed stated that Jesus was not crucified. Also Jesus ascended to heaven unharmed. The fact that he did not die in the cross as people believed does not mean that Jesus is not a Messiah, or annointed one of God, but it does prove that Jesus is a Messiah. God has promised in the Torah, Psalms, Gospel of Jesus and in the Holy Qur'an that He will save His Messengers and those who followed them and God always keep His promise.

Allah saved Jesus from the Israelites who disbelieved in the message with which he has been sent, and crucified in his stead the one who betrayed him, his disciple Judas Iscariot, the whole account of the story is written and preserved in the writings of one of Jesus' disciples, but which account is discounted by the Christians because it contradicts the bible and agrees with the Holy Qur'an account of the life of Jesus.

As for Jesus being a Muslim Prophet like the Prophet Muhammad, that is true. Since God told us in the Holy Qur'an that He sent down only ONE religion ( Submitting to the will of God= Islam in Arabic)

21:92 Lo! this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me.

23:52 And lo! this your religion is one religion and I am your Lord, so keep your duty unto Me.

16:123 And afterward We inspired thee Muhammad, saying: Follow the religion of Abraham, as one by nature upright. He was not of the idolaters.

Jesus himself clearly states that he is a Muslim in his teachings and his brothers are the Muslims.

Mark 3: 31 And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you." 33 And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?" 34 And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."


Here Jesus is saying that his mother and brothers and sisters are the Muslims. The religion that Jesus established is the religion that Abraham followed, Submission to the will of God, Islam in Arabic.. just as revealed by Allah in the Qur'an

saying, "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done." Luke 22:42

A Muslim is one who surrenders his will to God. Judge for yourself if Jesus is indeed a Muslim, because he is not a Christian.

22:78 And strive for Allah with the endeavor which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting Friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!

42:13 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).

establish the religion, and be not divided therein only ONE religion , from the Prophet Noah to the Prophet Muhammad.

Is Jesus not a Prophet from God? Is he not Muslim and is not Islam the religion from the time of Noah?

" If Jesus and Moses are alive today, they will be my followers." The Prophet Muhammad. Peace and blessings be upon all the messengers of Allah!

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Lord Jules
Just goes to show that the bible is not God's infallible word if it has missing sections and mistranslations. Plus all four gospels contradict each other, John being the worst as Jesus refers to himself as both equal to God and less than God.

Actually you're wrong on that last statement...

Jesus never once makes himself equal with God...

Paul made Jesus equal with God, and John made the statement in narration....read john 5

Jesus did not... ever

He knew better...

good job, Akragon!

NEVER.

TextAs for Jesus being a Muslim Prophet like the Prophet Muhammad, that is true. Since God told us in the Holy Qur'an that He sent down only ONE religion ( Submitting to the will of God= Islam in Arabic)

reply to post by queenofangels_17


Don't mean to bust in on your conversation but read your blog and am quite confused. Are you stating that Jesus was a Muslim or are you implying that Jesus was just another prophet like Muhammad?

I was under the impression that Muhammad was the first Muslim. If so then that was well over six hundred years after the death of Jesus.

You also say - Quote - "Here Jesus is saying that his mother and brothers and sisters are the Muslims. The religion that Jesus established is the religion that Abraham followed, Submission to the will of God, Islam in Arabic.. just as revealed by Allah in the Qur'an"

Abraham was born in the year of 1813 BCE or 1948 years after the creation. That is according to the Jewish Time Line Encyclopedia. For the sake of confusion we can say that Abraham was therefore born well over 1800 years before Jesus was born. How then can Abraham follow the doctrine of Jesus? Also that would be well over 2400 years before Muhammad. How then could Abraham or Jesus be Muslim?? Jesus did not establish any religion or doctrine that I am aware. Jesus followed the doctrine of Moses or as we know it "The Law"-- Or Ten Commands of the true God of Abraham, Issaic, and Jacob He came not to change the law but to fulfill the law.

We are worlds apart in this matter and am led to believe that you are a Muslim. Makes no difference to me what you are but your history is a bit off center.

reply to post by queenofangels_17

TextJesus never once makes himself equal with God...

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. --

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by redneck13

 

In regards to the resurrection according to the Quran, It says in the Qumran that Jesus was not crucified and that another person was put in his place and made to look like Jesus. Therefore, Jesus was not crucified and resurrected but he ascended to heaven unharmed. Jesus was not a Christ; he was a Muslim prophet just like Mohammed Do Muslims really believe the Qumran to be true in this aspect?

In the Holy Qur'an, not Qumran it is indeed stated that Jesus was not crucified. Also Jesus ascended to heaven unharmed. The fact that he did not die in the cross as people believed does not mean that Jesus is not a Messiah, or annointed one of God, but it does prove that Jesus is a Messiah. God has promised in the Torah, Psalms, Gospel of Jesus and in the Holy Qur'an that He will save His Messengers and those who followed them and God always keep His promise.

Allah saved Jesus from the Israelites who disbelieved in the message with which he has been sent, and crucified in his stead the one who betrayed him, his disciple Judas Iscariot, the whole account of the story is written and preserved in the writings of one of Jesus' disciples, but which account is discounted by the Christians because it contradicts the bible and agrees with the Holy Qur'an account of the life of Jesus.

As for Jesus being a Muslim Prophet like the Prophet Muhammad, that is true. Since God told us in the Holy Qur'an that He sent down only ONE religion ( Submitting to the will of God= Islam in Arabic)

21:92 Lo! this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me.

23:52 And lo! this your religion is one religion and I am your Lord, so keep your duty unto Me.

16:123 And afterward We inspired thee Muhammad, saying: Follow the religion of Abraham, as one by nature upright. He was not of the idolaters.

Jesus himself clearly states that he is a Muslim in his teachings and his brothers are the Muslims.

Mark 3: 31 And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him. 32 And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you." 33 And he replied, "Who are my mother and my brothers?" 34 And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother."


Here Jesus is saying that his mother and brothers and sisters are the Muslims. The religion that Jesus established is the religion that Abraham followed, Submission to the will of God, Islam in Arabic.. just as revealed by Allah in the Qur'an

saying, "Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done." Luke 22:42

A Muslim is one who surrenders his will to God. Judge for yourself if Jesus is indeed a Muslim, because he is not a Christian.

22:78 And strive for Allah with the endeavor which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting Friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!

42:13 He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: establish the religion, and be not divided therein. Dreadful for the idolaters is that unto which thou callest them. Allah chooseth for Himself whom He will, and guideth unto Himself him who turneth (toward Him).

establish the religion, and be not divided therein only ONE religion , from the Prophet Noah to the Prophet Muhammad.

Is Jesus not a Prophet from God? Is he not Muslim and is not Islam the religion from the time of Noah?

" If Jesus and Moses are alive today, they will be my followers." The Prophet Muhammad. Peace and blessings be upon all the messengers of Allah!

I won’t get into how much of a sham Islam is, it has nothing to do with Christianity to be sure.
I do not believe God has the need to lie

According to the Quran, Allah and Jesus the prophet deceived (lied) about the crucifixion
According to the Quran Allah and Jesus are deceivers

According to the Quran, the prophet Jesus and Allah created a false religion called Christianity.
The have lied to and deceived billions of people in the last 2000 years.

We know they are lying because a person by the name of Mohammed told us they were lying.

According to the Quran, the conversation in heaven would go something like this:
Jesus: “Oh God what are they worshiping down there?”
God: “Jesus that is hilarious we fooled them and made them believe you are the messiah”
Jesus: “God should we tell them?”
God: “No don’t worry about it Jesus, Mohammed already told them we were lying”

How could anyone follow a prophet that falls flat on his face in the most basic level?

reply to post by Seede


The religion that Jesus established is the religion that Abraham followed, which is Islam according to the Holy Qur'an. What I was saying is that the religion that Abraham followed is the same one that Jesus established. All prophets followed this religion, which is the surrender to God's will, whatever it was called in those times but in the Holy Qur'an which was originally revealed in Arabic, it is called Islam.

Abraham, our forefather established a monotheistic religion, the belief in One God, so did Moses and Jacob and the twelve tribes and Jesus, same religion that the Prophet Muhammad was sent with. Jesus did not establish Christianity but followed the religion of his forefather Abraham, which was Islam.

4:171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

2:130 And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.

2:132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the true religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered unto Him ( Muslim).

2:133 Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.

Peace!

reply to post by redneck13


2:109 Many of the People of the Scripture long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them. Forgive and be indulgent (toward them) until Allah give command. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

4:140 He hath already revealed unto you in the Scripture that, when ye hear the revelations of Allah rejected and derided, ye sit not with them who disbelieve and mock until they engage in some other conversation. Lo! in that case if ye stayed ye would be like unto them. Lo! Allah will gather hypocrites and disbelievers, all together, into hell;

Islam is hard for you to accept because you have to work for your own soul. It's better to believe that someone died for your sins. In today's world, we will call that injustice, paying for a crime you didn't commit. But for you that's salvation.

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

reply to post by queenofangels_17

TextWhat I was saying is that the religion that Abraham followed is the same one that Jesus established. All prophets followed this religion, which is the surrender to God's will, whatever it was called in those times but in the Holy Qur'an which was originally revealed in Arabic, it is called Islam.

Thank you for your clearification. While I am not a Muslim I will probably never agree with the Islamic religion. I have never heard the expression that Jesus established a religion simply because He always worshiped His Father God under the doctrine of Judaism. He obeyed the edicts of Moses and the Jerusalem temple authority and attended His local Synagogues. He read from the Jewish scrolls and obeyed the ten commands of Moses but He never introduced a teaching that was not ordained by Judaic authority. Jesus' only fault lay with His claim to be the only begotten Son of the Father God. This was not an established doctrine in His brief life but was later adopted by a Jewish sect who believed that He was the only begotten Son of God. This revelation was
established after His death.

These Jews, that believed Jesus was the only begotten son of God, became a sect with their first church in Jerusalem which was decimated by the Roman Empire. The results of this destruction became the Roman Catholic movement which you see today. Muhammad was not begotten by the Holy Spirit but was born of the flesh of a man and a woman whereas the first Christ followers believed that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Spirit). Therein lies the major difference between the Islamic belief and the true Christian belief.

A true Christian realizes that Jesus was more than just a prophet. There were many prophets and perhaps will be more as time advances but meanwhile we have two decisive religions which will never agree one with the other. There is only one document of the Quran whereas there are many documents of Christianity. This may be the result that Christianity had over six hundred more years to advance than did the Islamic movement. This is the reason that we are now discussing two of the oldest documents in the Christian bible.

Peace

It cracks me up the way Muslims pour over a hodge podge of mix-matched text stolen from other sources and claims it to be the true religion. Islam did not exist until 600 AD. How can anyone conceive Jesus was Muslim? He was baptized in the river. Jesus was a practicing Baptist. The fabrication of Islam had not taken place yet. A child can see Islam is a false religion. Funny how Mohammed the idolater has everyone unknowingly worshiping the Arabian moon god named Allah. Mohammed is the deceiver.Don’t blame me that you love a fraud

reply to post by Seede


Thank you for the peaceful response, Seede.

Though I am not here to compel anybody to believe in Islam as the only religion sent by God to mankind, it is my duty to clarify misconceptions about Muslims and Islam as Allah wills.

You mentioned that Jesus' only fault is in claiming that he is the begotten son of God. He never claimed any such thing in his teachings, but only confirmed the teachings of Moses and purify it from the corruptions and changes made by the doctors and teachers of the Law in his time. The same is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an.

You also said that the difference between the teachings of Islam and Christianity is that the Prophet Muhammad is born of flesh and blood but Jesus' followers believe that he (Jesus) is born of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Qur'an has the account of Mary's conception of Jesus as follow:

3:42 And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.

3:43 O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship).

3:44 This is of the tidings of things hidden. We reveal it unto thee (Muhammad). Thou wast not present with them when they threw their pens to know which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor wast thou present with them when they quarrelled (thereupon).

3:45 And remember when the angels said: O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near unto Allah.

3:46 He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous

3:47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So it will be. Allah createth what He will. if He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

-- Muslims believe that Jesus was conceived just by a simple command by God, which He sent through His angel Gabriel.

3:59 Lo! the likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! and he is.

The Muslims believe in all the revealed scriptures as it is one of the pillars of Islam but we are careful to examine if it agree with the Holy Qur'an as it is the guardian of all revealed scriptures and its mother and we are told to examine the truth with the Holy Qur'an as guide.

Consider these words of Jesus and weigh the Holy Qur'an with it, keep an open mind and ask for guidance from God to make things clear for you.

Jesus answered in parable: `A man goeth to fish with a net, and therein he catcheth many fishes, but are bad he throweth away.

`A man went forth to sow, but only the grain that falleth on good ground beareth seed.

`Even so ought ye to do, listening to all and receiving only the truth, seeing that the truth alone beareth fruit unto eternal life.'

Then answered Andrew: `Now how shall the truth be known?

Jasus answered: `Everything that conformeth to the book of Moses, that receive ye for true; seeing that God is one, the truth is one; whence it followeth that the doctrine is one and the meaning of the doctrine is one; and therefore the faith is one. Verily I say unto you that if the truth had not been erased from the book of Moses, God would not have given to David our father the senond. And if the book of David had not been contaminated, God would not have committed the Gospel to me; seeing that the Lord our God is unchangeable, and hath spoken but one message to all men. Wherefore, when the messenger of God shall come, he shall come to cleanse away all wherewith the ungodly have contaminated my book'.

Then answered he who writeth: `O Master, what shall a man do when the law shall be found contaminated and the false prophet shall speak?'

Jesus answered: `Good is thy question, O Barnabas; wherefore I tell thee that in such a time few are saved, seeing that men do not consider their end, which is God. As God liveth in whose presence my soul standeth, every doctrine that shall turn man aside from his end, which is God, is most evil doctrine. Wherefore there are three things that thou shalt consider in doctrine - namely, love towards God, pity towards one's neighbour, and hatred towards thyself, who hast offended God, and offendest him every day.

Wherefore every doctrine that is contrary to these three heads do thou avoid, because it is most evil.

All Praise and Glory belongs to God forever!

Peace!

reply to post by redneck13


If you only knew, Redneck, but so it must be.

God guides those whom He wills to guide and sends astray whom He wills.

Soon you will know the truth.

7:30 A party hath He led aright, while error hath just hold over another party, for lo! they choose the devils for protecting friends instead of Allah and deem that they are rightly guided.

67:22 Is he who goeth groping on his face more rightly guided, or he who walketh upright on a beaten road?

You prefer conjecture rather than truth. The Muslims follow the religion of Abraham, who is not an idolater and one who surrenders his will to God. The road is straight, the truth is clear for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

18:56 We send not the messengers save as bearers of good news and warners. Those who disbelieve contend with falsehood in order to refute the Truth thereby. And they take Our revelations and that wherewith they are threatened as a jest.

18:57 And who doth greater wrong than he who hath been reminded of the revelations of his Lord, yet turneth away from them and forgetteth what his hands send forward to the Judgment? Lo! on their hearts We have placed coverings so that they understand not, and in their ears a deafness. And though thou call them to the guidance, in that case they can never be led aright.

God's final words to you. Chapter 109 ( The Disbelievers)

109:1 Say: O disbelievers! -

109:2 I worship not that which ye worship;

109:3 Nor worship ye that which I worship.

109:4 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.

109:5 Nor will ye worship that which I worship

109:6 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. -

TextYou also said that the difference between the teachings of Islam and Christianity is that the Prophet Muhammad is born of flesh and blood but Jesus' followers believe that he (Jesus) is born of the Holy Ghost.

reply to post by queenofangels_17


queenofangels

When I said that " Jesus' only fault lay with His claim to be the only begotten Son of the Father God " I wrote with carelessness. Jesus' claim that He was the the only begotten of God is not a fault except to those who do not believe the scriptures. That was the intention of what I meant to write. -- "1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." John the Apostle wrote that of Jesus. Again it is written " Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. This was the revelation given to the Apostle Peter and Jesus then admitted that He indeed was the Begotten Son of God or as the Christ.

Now in order to clarify what I just wrote I again repeat that Jesus was not as Muhammad. Muhammad was conceived and born of the flesh of man and woman. Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the flesh of woman. The male DNA of the human species is not in Jesus because He was of His Heavenly Father God. I never said that Jesus was born of anything prior to this writing. I said that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. This is why Jesus was the begotten of God and why he admitted that He was of the Father as the Christ.

You wrote the following -- " 3:47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So it will be. Allah createth what He will. if He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. -- Muslims believe that Jesus was conceived just by a simple command by God, which He sent through His angel Gabriel.

The Apostle Luke wrote the following of the very same subject - Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Luk 1:29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

According to your belief, we have reached an agreement in one phase of the birth of Jesus. You admit that he was conceived by the Spirit God and you are correct. That is what you wrote in the above writing. Therefore if He was conceived by the Celestial Father then he could not have had a human male as the father. Therefore if he came through the Father God then He was begotten of the Father or as we understand it to mean that He was the only begotten Son of God. I am glad to see that your Quran is correct on that point. You now understand why we believe that Jesus was more than just a prophet and not of the flesh of men such as Muhammad was.
Muhammad was a son of God but not the only begotten Son of God.

The only other difference in our understanding each other is that we believe that Jesus was not created but was a Celestial power before He became flesh. This is why we also subscribe to the belief that He was resurrected back into His first estate as the Word of God. He now resides in the celestial realm as the word of God.

I want you to understand that Jesus does not reign over the house of Ishmael but reigns over the house of David the Jewish King. That is our belief. The true Christian is adopted into this house of David as a guest and brother and not of anything that we deserve. It is a gift from the Father God. I end it here and wish you the best in life.

Peace

Originally posted by redneck13
A true believer will tell you
The Bible is exactly as it is supposed to be
The Almighty has the power to manage his word

Then why were so many translators and fanciful writers hired to write it?
THE MEN BEHIND THE KING JAMES BIBLE
Man's words. Not Gods.

reply to post by autowrench


*sigh*

And what were these committee members translating FROM?

Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by redneck13
A true believer will tell you
The Bible is exactly as it is supposed to be
The Almighty has the power to manage his word

Then why were so many translators and fanciful writers hired to write it?
THE MEN BEHIND THE KING JAMES BIBLE
Man's words. Not Gods.

Men physically wrote the text
The maker can manage his word

TextThen why were so many translators and fanciful writers hired to write it?

reply to post by autowrench


It all depends upon what source they used. An example would be that Tyndall translated his new testament from a completed Greek manuscript which was written by Desiderius Erasmus. In other words Tyndall translated a Greek book into English. He did not gather the hundreds of completed manuscripts and sort through them and proof read them for accuracy. He simply took one man's work and translated it. That was the first English New Testament and it took him from 1525 to 1526 to complete this work. About a year but we don't know how many hours it took.

On the other hand it took 54 scholars (ended with 47) and seven years to produce the 1611 King James complete Old and New Testaments and the Apocrypha. There were 78 years between both works and during these 78 years there were additional complete manuscripts discovered. I believe today we have about 1500 complete manuscripts in Greek.
So this work involved translating all known complete manuscripts and compare them for uniformity. They did this work and then categorized the manuscripts into groups as the majority texts and minority texts. The majority of these texts became known as the Received Texts or Textus Receptus. The Majority Texts agreed among themselves over 95% and the differences among these Majority Texts were compared and the majority ruled as to the language. Only then was the material to be used started in putting chosen texts into the bible.

Now I do not know how many hours these men worked per day to do this but you can imagine that it was a great task for any group of people. No electricity or central air or any of the comforts we have today. They did have the movable type printing press at this time but the original still had to be hand written. This along with the wood cuts and page designs were part of this seven years that it took to produce. Also other sources were compared such as the Geneva Bible and Tyndale's new testament. Many cultural word language changes were also compared to those seventy eight years.

Just as the 1611 King James was revised for print and language errors so it is today that we see language changes in our culture. There are many words which have been put into concordances both in Hebrew, Greek and English Every culture changes language in due time and finally reaches a point that it makes no sense to the new cultures. Then we must revise the language without changing the meaning. That is very difficult sometimes and that is why we have concordances. If linguists are not diligent, the meanings can be lost from the original literature. So that is the main reason for why there were so many translators and fanciful writers.

reply to post by Seede

Hi Seed--

The translators of the King James Bible (1611) made a number of errors, as you know, and the book was re-issued 4 times over the next several years with corrections, many of which were printers' errrors.

The problem was not their knowledge of Koine Greek, but the fact that they had very very very FEW manuscripts from which to work,

For the so-called 'New' Testament Greek texts, they only had Codex 'Alexandrinus' (A) and 'Codex Bezae-biglot' (D), the socalled Western text.

They had NO access in 1611 to Codex Sinaiticus ('Aleph) or Codex Vaticanus (B) , or Codex Ephraemi Palimsest (C) or the Freer Codex aka Washingtoniensis (W). They also had ZERO access to the Papyri e.g. p66 or p47.

So their SOURCE material was flawed.

Thus the 1611 translators were crippled / shackled from the very beginning. Had they possessed all the papyri that we moderns have (and can gain visual MSS access to via things like the world wide web etc.) they would have produced a VASTLY different text in English.

For the so-called Old Testament, they ONLY used the pointed Masoretic version of the Leningrad Codex (c. 960 CE) with the vowells added to the consonantal text.

They did NOT use the Septuaginta LXX Greek Alexadrian Old Testament (with Apocrypha) from c. 250 BCE which is based on OLDER MSS some of which were represented by copies found among the Dead Sea Scroll Fragments, or the Greek of the text of the Hebrew scriptures (and apocrypha) used by Symmachus (c. 130 CE) ; nor any of the Greek readings from the text used by Aquila (c. 140 CE) or any of the Greek text family used by Theodotion (as e.g. the so-called 'Book of Revelation' used as a source when quoting Daniel or Deuteronomy for example).

The 1611 King James translators also had NO interest in comparing the various Hebrew Torah versions from antiquity e.g. the Samaritan Pentateuch (from c. 380 BCE) with the Masoretic to get cleaner readings - they merely took the Leningrad Codex version (aka the Masoretic Text or MT) as the 'word of God' and translated the mangled Hebrew text as best they could.

If the King James translators of 1611 had any access at all to the Samaritan Pentateuch, or the Dead Sea Scrolls versions found in Caves 1-11 (pre-Masoretic), or the Aramaic Targum versions, or the Syriac Pe#ta or the Hebrew consonantal source texts (Vorlagen) used by Theodotion, or Symmachus or Aquila, they would have produced a VASTLY different old testament than the mess that forms their English translation of the Hebrew 'scriptures' which contain more than 2,500 major textual errors, and another 15,000 simple copyists errors.

Clear as Mud ?