The last twelve verses are missing from the oldest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel

reply to post by Shoonra

There have been entire books written about the ending of Mark. This is hardly news.

it's news to me sir

All I can say about the authenticity of the Longer Ending is that a great many church congregations in the US have relied on the KJV's inclusion of the verse on snake handling to use snakes in their ceremonies -- but, unlike the assurance in the Longer Ending, many have been bitten and died as a result. One case very recently.

wow this is indeed , interesting , so what is your final thoughts on this ?

That's a lie, it's only legal in one county in Kentucky. And there are like 3 churches that handle snakes. They are the ultra-rare exception to the rule. It's not even the norm in the STATE OF KENTUCKY let alone the entire USA!

Originally posted by Shoonra
There have been entire books written about the ending of Mark. This is hardly news.

In the two (only two) oldest mss of Mark (the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus codices), Mark ends abruptly with verse 16:8 ("they spoke to no one because they were afraid."). Similarly the ancient versions in Syriac, and Sahidic and some others end at this point. Scholars and others are divided on whether the Gospel originally ended at this point or whether there had been more but somehow the manuscript being used had lost its last page (or two).

Medieval copies frequently had what is called the Longer Ending, which is what appears in the KJV (it includes a verse about snake handling). There are stylistic differences between the Longer Ending and the rest of the Gospel of Mark, so some people suspect it was written by someone else, possibly centuries after the original Gospel was written.

Some other medieval copies have what is called the Shorter Ending, which is only two sentences long ("And they quickly reported to Peter and his companions all that they had been told. And, afterward, Jesus himself used them to send out, everywhere, the sacred and deathless proclamation of eternal salvation."). It is so brief that it is unclear whether or not it is written in the same style as the rest of the Gospel. Some manuscripts and ancient versions contain the Shorter Ending, some combine it with the Longer Ending (sometimes the Shorter first, sometime the Longer first), and some have even other changes to the ending. The Shorter and Longer Endings are, both, very old, perhaps as far back as the 6th century, but apparently not earlier.

All I can say about the authenticity of the Longer Ending is that a great many church congregations in the US have relied on the KJV's inclusion of the verse on snake handling to use snakes in their ceremonies -- but, unlike the assurance in the Longer Ending, many have been bitten and died as a result. One case very recently.

Lets be honest shall we the OP is looking for truth. The TS and TV are the oldest COMPLETE manuscripts, but there are fragments centuries older than the TS and TV. And besides that, anyone who knows anything about antiques will tell you the ones that survive the longest are the ones that rarely were used and abused! The TV and especially the TS were found in storage, not being used. "Older = better" is a logical fallacy. And both the TS and TV have the last part of Mark missing from them but Irenaeus quotes from those verses in his commentary on the book of Mark in 155 AD. And Hypoleteus quotes from those verses too in the 2nd century. So either these two men were clairvoyants or the Gnostics expurgated the verses from their 3rd and 4th century manuscripts.

Yes, entire books have been written debating this issue, I prefer to cut the fluff and go right for Occam's Razor.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
.... Irenaeus quotes from those verses in his commentary on the book of Mark in 155 AD. And Hypoleteus quotes from those verses too in the 2nd century.

I seriously doubt either of those authors were writing as early as you date them.

Originally posted by Shoonra

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
.... Irenaeus quotes from those verses in his commentary on the book of Mark in 155 AD. And Hypoleteus quotes from those verses too in the 2nd century.

I seriously doubt either of those authors were writing as early as you date them.

Google them. Go see when Irenaeus lived. His commentary on Mark was completed around 150 AD. Hypoleteus was born right at the turn of the century, he quotes from the same verses as well long before they showed up missing in the TV and TS.

reply to post by LightningStrikesHere

The last twelve verses are missing from the oldest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel

Has this ever been in doubt? The bible is a compilation from many sources, old and new testament. You probably have seen this thread, one of the great shocks to the bible's credibility
Oldest bible now online

... and this makes good supplementary reading, a comprehensive overview
The Forged Origins of the New Testament, by Tony Bushby

The (post-Nero) Nicaean fiddlings included many editings, orderings and additions to complete the compilation of Constantine's politically motivated work that was purposely biased towards the Pauline version of Jesus' teachings (again to the emperor's advantage in terms of apostolic succession). Add to this we have all the Sumerian and Babylonian influences to the old testament and tra la la la la ...

The bible's many contradictions in both old and new testament like the differing accounts of the resurrection, and many other unresolved issues like the repeated use of gods (in plural), make it difficult for us lesser, critically-thinking mortals to take it at face value, or as having been divinely inspired (or written).
So accept it as an interesting read and a code to living a good life, but historically correct

reply to post by LightningStrikesHere


so you actually believe that the 4 apostles of the Gospels never wrote down anything. they never kept a diary that became the Gospels. or dictated and told one of their followers to write down the most important event in human history so it can be recorded for all time.

The jewish people are notorious record keepers of the law. look at the torah scrolls.

give me a break. what were they doing when not travelling or spreading the Word. just sitting there and staring blankly at walls.

or does it make more sense that the apostles were human, and spent time chronicling and writing down the word of God.

when something is published and when it is actually written are 2 completely different things.

go watch the book of eli with denzel washington to get a sense of what i'm talking about.

By the fourth and fifth centuries both Jerome and Eusebius explicitly reported that many manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark ended abruptly at verse 16:8. The allusions in earlier Church Fathers are mere turns of phrase which might not be attempts at direct quotations. The general consensus is that neither the Longer nor Shorter Ending was part of the original text but that both were fairly early - perhaps within a 150 years of the writing of the original Gospel.

There are numerous manuscripts with either the Longer or Shorter ending -- and then there are manuscripts that combine both - sometimes the longer ending first, sometimes the shorter ending first, and sometimes even more verses that nobody (or only a very few) had. This tends to show that, even in antiquity, it was thought that the Gospel ended too abruptly and various copyists made their own decisions as to how to add an ending to it.

fresh thread
www.abovetopsecret...

By Chris Brooke
PUBLISHED: 01:05 GMT, 15 June 2012 | UPDATED: 16:18 GMT, 15 June 20

Bring me the knuckle of John the Baptist: Scientists claim 'positive' tests on 1st-century relics which are from one man, from the right place at the right timeDNA tests on three bones confirmed they were probably from someone of Middle East origin - where John the Baptist came from
They also established they were likely to be from a man

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You need to stick with the Textus Recptus MSS and you'll be fine[/qupte]
There is no "Textus Receptus MSS". The TR is a critical text, just like the NA27, Robinson's MT, and the UBS4.

In addition one won't be fine with the TR if they want a Greek text base that is completely based on Greek. There are several places in the TR where Erasmus had to back translate the Vulgate into Greek because the extant manuscripts available to Erasmus weren't complete.

I have located the missing verses:

"And then the Lord raised his hand
and in the sky there appeared a luminous disk.
Like a feather the disk set itself on the ground
and in it a glowing door appeared.
'Tell your children to tell their children I shall return,'
sayeth the Lord. And with that he stepped
into the door and was carried aloft by the disk.
So it was witnessed and affirmed to by me
and a curse be to any who claim it false."

Originally posted by redneck13
Bring me the knuckle of John the Baptist: Scientists claim 'positive' tests on 1st-century relics which are from one man, from the right place at the right timeDNA tests on three bones confirmed they were probably from someone of Middle East origin - where John the Baptist came from
They also established they were likely to be from a man

Well, since there was only one man alive at the time, I guess that's him!

If you are concerned about the last 12 verses of Mark, this may be the very best thing you can look at:

www.khouse.org...

The heptadic structure proves those verses belong and that everything the gnostics and higher critics like to remove belongs in the Text.

Originally posted by randomname
reply to post by LightningStrikesHere

 

so you actually believe that the 4 apostles of the Gospels never wrote down anything. they never kept a diary that became the Gospels. or dictated and told one of their followers to write down the most important event in human history so it can be recorded for all time.

The jewish people are notorious record keepers of the law. look at the torah scrolls.

give me a break. what were they doing when not travelling or spreading the Word. just sitting there and staring blankly at walls.

or does it make more sense that the apostles were human, and spent time chronicling and writing down the word of God.

when something is published and when it is actually written are 2 completely different things.

go watch the book of eli with denzel washington to get a sense of what i'm talking about.

show me the proof ? simply put

reply to post by redneck13

timeDNA tests on three bones confirmed they were probably from someone of Middle East origin - where John the Baptist came from They also established they were likely to be from a man

sounds like a desperate attempt to me , could have been anyone ,

Originally posted by Blue Shift
I have located the missing verses:

"And then the Lord raised his hand
and in the sky there appeared a luminous disk.
Like a feather the disk set itself on the ground
and in it a glowing door appeared.
'Tell your children to tell their children I shall return,'
sayeth the Lord. And with that he stepped
into the door and was carried aloft by the disk.
So it was witnessed and affirmed to by me
and a curse be to any who claim it false."

this is beautiful ty sir this made my day

reply to post by LightningStrikesHere


If you can not have faith enough to believe that God made sure we had exactly what he meant for us to have when they wrote the KJV bible and doubt the bible is factual then you and all like you have no real faith in God.

The KJV Bible turned 400 years old last year in 2011 that is ten forties , ten in in the bible represent divine perfection and forty represents probation. Last year the judgement of man began after Gods Devine perfection of giving man ten generations of probation to trust in that bible to guide them to Gd and protect them from Satan .

By the way the number 11 in the bible marks disorder and judgement and it also just so happens that every person of age ( above 13) had the number 111 common to them . If you took the last two digets of the year you were born and your age it came to 111 . One person is the first 1 and then judgment and disorder for the 11 for every single person on earth .

You should really rethink about the word of God and stop listening to these so called scripture lawyers. Gd has a plan and the KJV bible is part of it and these numbers I showed you are no coincidence but are very much part of the plan for those with eyes to see andears to hear. Peace

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Excellent find my friend. It seems that a lot of the original gospels are missing and corrupted away from the true religion of Christianity.

BBC did a documentary on this called "The Lost Gospels" You can watch it on YouTube

Star and Flag

Question, how do those changes change the meaning of the Gospel and contradict the true religion?

Originally posted by Azadok2day
reply to post by LightningStrikesHere

 

If you can not have faith enough to believe that God made sure we had exactly what he meant for us to have when they wrote the KJV bible and doubt the bible is factual then you and all like you have no real faith in God.

The KJV Bible turned 400 years old last year in 2011 that is ten forties , ten in in the bible represent divine perfection and forty represents probation. Last year the judgement of man began after Gods Devine perfection of giving man ten generations of probation to trust in that bible to guide them to Gd and protect them from Satan .

By the way the number 11 in the bible marks disorder and judgement and it also just so happens that every person of age ( above 13) had the number 111 common to them . If you took the last two digets of the year you were born and your age it came to 111 . One person is the first 1 and then judgment and disorder for the 11 for every single person on earth .

You should really rethink about the word of God and stop listening to these so called scripture lawyers. Gd has a plan and the KJV bible is part of it and these numbers I showed you are no coincidence but are very much part of the plan for those with eyes to see andears to hear. Peace

with all do respect , the "bible" has no impact on my "faith" in god my good man , i know god is very real , therefor faith is not needed , because i know , and it feels very good to walk through life knowing , and the bible never gave me that , the only thing the bible ever did for me was "questions" yes it forced me to question my religion at that time , as i was a christen once , the parables ect ect , , so yes maybe it guided me ... it guided me away from Christianity .... and away from Christianity is where i found god ....and love ....... and please do not tell me that i am misguided , i have so much love and compassion now, i would never return to an organised creation of man .. and believe me i say this with a pure humble heart ,

your brother

Love LSH

The washing of the brains continues...........5 times a day