The last twelve verses are missing from the oldest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel

page: 1
10
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join

posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 01:45 AM
link   
Hello, I just wanted to touch on this topic a bit , and gather some thoughts , on what allot of people Might not know about with the ending chapters of Mark . i summit to you that i have only found out about his tonight , and i am still researching my self , but i urge members to help me in my research and figure out why their are missing verses in Mark and to also help me in my quest to find out how the bible might not be as accurate as people are lead to believe. Or find out how accurate it might really be

Also many scholars are now saying that the Gospels started with mark and not Mathew , but i kind of wanted to show you a "Map" if you will of how the Bible could have really been tampered with in such a way that we truly might not have the full story , I for one do not believe that the bible is 100% accurate , I do my best in trying to be open minded and give it the benefit of my doubt's but it seems that thus far i have not been satisfied with success .

I would like to urge members to try and stay on topic is much as possible .I would wish not for this thread to turn into a religious bashing apparatus. I also keep in mind that i feel Wikipedia is not 100% as well , i proved this to my self when i was working on a research project about the Chechnya conflict ,

so case and point

The Gospel According to Mark (Greek: κατὰ Μᾶρκον εὐαγγέλιον, τὸ εὐαγγέλιον κατὰ Μᾶρκον, to euangelion kata Markon), commonly shortened to the Gospel of Mark or simply Mark, is the second book of the New Testament. This canonical account of the life of Jesus of Nazareth is one of the three synoptic gospels. It was thought to be an epitome, which accounts for its place as the second gospel in the Bible. However, most contemporary scholars now regard it as the earliest of the canonical gospels[1] (c 70),[2]

so going off of wiki i am going to assume that Mark was the first account of the Gospels .Also keep in mind that the Gospels were written years after the death of Jesus , possible 70 years or more

The Gospel of Mark narrates the Ministry of Jesus from his baptism by John the Baptist to his death and resurrection. It focuses particularly on the last week of his life (chapters 11–16) in Jerusalem. Its swift narrative portrays Jesus as a heroic man of action,[2] an exorcist, healer and miracle worker. An important theme of Mark is the Messianic Secret.[3] Jesus silences the demoniacs he heals, tries unsuccessfully to keep his messianic identity secret, and conceals his message with parables.[3] Meanwhile, the disciples fail to understand both the implication of the miracles of Jesus[2] and the meaning of the things he predicts about his arrest, death and resurrection.

this part kind of struck me as odd , that it does not name an author , i thought mark was the author ?

The Gospel According to Mark does not name its author.[2] A tradition arising in the 2nd century ascribes it to Mark the Evangelist (also known as John Mark), the companion of Peter,[7] on whose memories it is supposedly based.[1][8][9][10] but the author's use of varied sources tells against the traditional account and according to the majority view the author is unknown.[11][12] The gospel was written in Greek shortly after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70, possibly in Syria.

but then we have this !?

According to Irenaeus, Papias of Hierapolis, writing in the early 2nd century, reported that this gospel was by John Mark,[7] the companion of Saint Peter in Rome, who "had one purpose only – to leave out nothing that he had heard, and to make no misstatement about it."[13] Most modern scholars believe that the gospel was written in Syria by an unknown Christian no earlier than AD 70, using various sources including a passion narrative (probably written), collections of miracles stories (oral or written), apocalyptic traditions (probably written), and disputations and didactic sayings (some possibly written).[5] Some of the material in Mark, however, goes back a very long way, representing an important source for historical information about Jesus.[5]

so then , this is the sort of thing that makes me question , i can understand the translation errors , your thoughts

Mark is the shortest of the canonical gospels. Manuscripts, both scrolls and codices, tend to lose text at the beginning and the end, not unlike a coverless paperback in a backpack.[26] These losses are characteristically unconnected with excisions. For instance, Mark 1:1 has been found in two different forms. Most manuscripts of Mark, including the 4th-century Codex Vaticanus, have the text "son of God",[27] but three important manuscripts do not. Those three are: Codex Sinaiticus (01, א; dated 4th century), Codex Koridethi (038, Θ; 9th century), and the text called Minuscule 28 (11th century).[28] Textual support for the term "Son of God" is strong, but the phrase may not have been original.[29] Interpolations may not be editorial, either. It is a common experience that glosses written in the margins of manuscripts get incorporated into the text as copies are made. Any particular example is open to dispute, of course, but one may take note of Mark 7:16, "Let anyone with ears to hear, listen," which is not found in early manuscripts. Revision and editorial error may also contribute. Most differences are trivial but Mark 1:41, where the leper approached Jesus begging to be healed, is significant. Early (Western) manuscripts say that Jesus became angry with the leper while later (Byzantine) versions indicate that Jesus showed compassion. This is possibly a confusion between the Aramaic words ethraham (he had pity) and ethra'em (he was enraged).[30] Since it is easier to understand why a scribe would change "rage" to "pity" than "pity" to "rage," the earlier version is probably original.[31]

and of course this missing parts , keep in mind that even the oldest known "bibles" or books have been found with missing verses of mark , at what point did they add the verses and who did it ?

Mark 16:9–20, describing some disciples' encounters with the resurrected Jesus, appears to be a later addition to the gospel. Mark 16:8 stops at a description of the empty tomb, which is immediately preceded by a statement by a "young man dressed in a white robe" that Jesus is "risen" and is "going ahead of you into Galilee." The last twelve verses are missing from the oldest manuscripts of Mark's Gospel.[32] The style of these verses differs from the rest of Mark, suggesting they were a later addition. In a handful of manuscripts, a "short ending" is included after 16:8, but before the "long ending", and exists by itself in one of the earliest Old Latin codices, Codex Bobiensis. By the 5th century, at least four different endings have been attested. (See Mark 16 for a more comprehensive treatment of this topic.) Possibly, the Long Ending (16:9–20) started as a summary of evidence for Jesus' resurrection and the apostles' divine mission, based on other gospels.[33] It was likely composed early in the 2nd century and incorporated into the gospel around the middle of the 2nd century.[33] The 3rd-century theologian Origen of Alexandria quoted the resurrection stories in Matthew, Luke, and John but failed to quote anything after Mark 16:8, suggesting that his copy of Mark stopped there. Eusebius and Jerome both mention the majority of texts available to them omitted the longer ending.[34] Critics are divided over whether the original ending at 16:8 was intentional, whether it resulted from accidental loss, or even the author's death.[35] Those who believe that 16:8 was not the intended ending argue that it would be very unusual syntax for the text to end with the conjunction gar (γάρ), as does Mark 16:8, and that thematically it would be strange for a book of good news to end with a note of fear (ἐφοβοῦντο γὰρ, "for they were afraid").[36] If the 16:8 ending was intentional, it could indicate a connection to the theme of the "Messianic Secret". This abrupt ending is also used to support the identification of this book as an example of closet drama, which characteristically ended without resolution and often with a tragic or shocking event that prevents closure.[37]




posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 01:48 AM
link   
i would like to say sorry for any ignorance here , that i might have left in , and i would like to thank you as well , for helping me to figure all this out and i leave you with the link to the 95% accurate wiki lol

en.wikipedia.org...

as always bismillah ( in the name of god ) stay positive and i love you all

Lightning Strikes Here
salam alikume



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 02:04 AM
link   
A true believer will tell you
The Bible is exactly as it is supposed to be
The Almighty has the power to manage his word



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 02:06 AM
link   

Originally posted by redneck13
A true believer will tell you
The Bible is exactly as it is supposed to be
The Almighty has the power to manage his word


what is "HIS" word ?
edit on 15-6-2012 by LightningStrikesHere because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 02:31 AM
link   
reply to post by LightningStrikesHere
 


His word is the book, the subject of your thread
It can only reveal what it contains
edit on 15-6-2012 by redneck13 because: ,



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 02:36 AM
link   
The Gnostics removed that chapter along with a TON of other verses in their 3 manuscripts because it didn't align with their doctrines. Look at Irenaeus's quote about Marcion "mutilating the scriptures". The Gnostics rejected Christ's literal death and resurrection, so you can't have Mark 16 now can ya?



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 02:37 AM
link   
Excellent find my friend. It seems that a lot of the original gospels are missing and corrupted away from the true religion of Christianity.

BBC did a documentary on this called "The Lost Gospels" You can watch it on YouTube

Star and Flag



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 02:56 AM
link   
reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL
 


thank you my good man , will search for that on youtube ,

peace be with you brother pro



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 03:00 AM
link   

9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. 12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either. 14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



according to the (New International Version) their is , lol but if their was nothing their to began with or "removed " as you say , then who made the rest up ?



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 03:03 AM
link   

Originally posted by redneck13
reply to post by LightningStrikesHere
 


His word is the book, the subject of your thread
It can only reveal what it contains
edit on 15-6-2012 by redneck13 because: ,


but is the word true ? that is the question , and one would think that if it were "his word" their would be no such room for ..... well now their is plenty of room for missing verses
edit on 15-6-2012 by LightningStrikesHere because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 03:25 AM
link   
the Bible, in this case, is the testament of 4 different eyewitnesses. 4 different versions of the same event.

it's the content that matters, not the wording.

four of us could witness a car crash, and the four us would come up with different perspectives of the event.

one of us might the describe the color and make of the car in more detail, another could possibly focus on the driver or the weather, but the actual event would remain unchanged.

i think the way the Gospels are written add more legitimacy to Jesus' life, than takes away from it.

and to say it was written years after Jesus' death is wrong. i'm sure all the apostles kept journals and wrote down what they have seen, experienced and witnessed. many of the letters they wrote are in the bible.

so they could read and write.

and as they died or were executed they passed it on to their most trusted followers, who they appointed as their apostles.



edit on 15-6-2012 by randomname because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 03:28 AM
link   
reply to post by LightningStrikesHere
 


Google "Irenaeus quotes about Marcion mutilating the scriptures". I'd also suggest taking this test:



NIV Test

Now, please tell me nothing was removed?



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 03:46 AM
link   
reply to post by randomname
 


i understand your wishful thinking here , but the problem i have is , simple mark was the first to write the gospels
however they start with Mathew , now the oldest book ,bible , ever found , does not contain the verses ... why do they contain them now ? if you read my op you will see the the parts in question , who addith and who takeith away ? and who were the people who kept these so called journals ? , and yes the gospels were written many years after Jesus

just a bit of incite


A Brief Background There are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Matthew, Mark and Luke are known as the 'Synoptic' Gospels. This is because many episodes in them are similar enough that all three Gospels can be put together in one book, or 'synopsis', and textual differences compared. As a result of these textual comparisons, it was noticed that Matthew and Luke seemed to be written after Mark and to use Mark as a written source. Of the 661 verses in Marks' Gospel, Matthew's Gospel uses about 607 and Luke's Gospel uses about 360. There are also about 230 verses which are very similar in Matthew and Luke, but which are not in Mark. Many Biblical scholars argue that , for these verses, Matthew and Luke must have used another written source, which is usually called "Q". The existence of Q is disputed, however it is almost universally agreed that Matthew and Luke knew of, and used, Mark. Whatever the exact sequence, it is very clear that the similarity of Matthew, Mark and Luke means that some Gospels were used as sources for other Gospels. But were they eyewitnesses? This raises some interesting questions. Why would an eyewitness like Matthew need to use ninety percent of somebody else's book? Why would Luke, a companion of Paul, need to use a written source like Mark? If Luke knew Paul and Paul knew Peter, and Peter told Paul many stories about Jesus, then Luke could have written about Jesus from what he himself had heard, rather than relying on second or third-hand information. Even if it seems that Matthew and Luke were relying on written third or fourth hand testimony, all is not lost if Christians can show that Mark was based on eye-witness testimony. Then the Gospels would be based on eyewitness reports. Perhaps they had gone through one or two people before Matthew and Luke retold the stories, but there would still be a connection between the disciples and the Gospel writers.


www.bowness.demon.co.uk...



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 04:02 AM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by LightningStrikesHere
 


Google "Irenaeus quotes about Marcion mutilating the scriptures". I'd also suggest taking this test:



NIV Test

Now, please tell me nothing was removed?



your request is noted :


but while searching i have found some other interesting stuff
its starting to get depressing now



Bible interpolation, or Bible redaction, is the art of adding stuff to the Bible. Most Christians like to pretend that the books of the Bible presented to us today are exactly the same as when they were written 19 or more centuries ago, having been precisely copied over the years. However, comparison with ancient texts indicates that is simply not true. Through biblical criticism scholars have identified additions, omissions, and edits that have been made. Some changes are due to errors and honest attempts at clarification. Many are due to dishonest attempts on the part of copyists to alter the Bible in order to further their theological agendas. The result is that the Bible we read today does not necessarily convey the message intended by its original authors.


rationalwiki.org...



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 08:22 AM
link   
reply to post by LightningStrikesHere
 


Yes, scholars know about additions as well. You need to stick with the Textus Recptus MSS and you'll be fine. Plus, that's the onlh MSS that follows the heptadic structure Dr. Ivan Panin discovered. The subtractions AND attempts at additions boil down to the Gnostics in tue 3rd -4th centuries and the sly work of Westcott and Hort in the 19th century. Moat all your modern per... versions rely on the W&H mangled Greek text and one or two of the perverted MSS from Alexandria, Egypt.



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 10:10 AM
link   
There have been entire books written about the ending of Mark. This is hardly news.

In the two (only two) oldest mss of Mark (the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus codices), Mark ends abruptly with verse 16:8 ("they spoke to no one because they were afraid."). Similarly the ancient versions in Syriac, and Sahidic and some others end at this point. Scholars and others are divided on whether the Gospel originally ended at this point or whether there had been more but somehow the manuscript being used had lost its last page (or two).

Medieval copies frequently had what is called the Longer Ending, which is what appears in the KJV (it includes a verse about snake handling). There are stylistic differences between the Longer Ending and the rest of the Gospel of Mark, so some people suspect it was written by someone else, possibly centuries after the original Gospel was written.

Some other medieval copies have what is called the Shorter Ending, which is only two sentences long ("And they quickly reported to Peter and his companions all that they had been told. And, afterward, Jesus himself used them to send out, everywhere, the sacred and deathless proclamation of eternal salvation."). It is so brief that it is unclear whether or not it is written in the same style as the rest of the Gospel. Some manuscripts and ancient versions contain the Shorter Ending, some combine it with the Longer Ending (sometimes the Shorter first, sometime the Longer first), and some have even other changes to the ending. The Shorter and Longer Endings are, both, very old, perhaps as far back as the 6th century, but apparently not earlier.

All I can say about the authenticity of the Longer Ending is that a great many church congregations in the US have relied on the KJV's inclusion of the verse on snake handling to use snakes in their ceremonies -- but, unlike the assurance in the Longer Ending, many have been bitten and died as a result. One case very recently.



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 10:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by LightningStrikesHere

9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it. 12 Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13 These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either. 14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



according to the (New International Version) their is , lol but if their was nothing their to began with or "removed " as you say , then who made the rest up ?


15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned

Above is quite pushing of their view of everything and pushes for indoctination not true understanding by the beliver. Also a very dualistic view that the people who will not join the sect for whatever reason will be condemned. Not much love your brother and sister and let him evolve to understanding and god is not giving up on them is there? As if a little water will change anything if it is not a spiritual event for the one getting baptized. Seem like people like Gandi and Buddha are in trouble if this text is true.

This do not seem to be an enlightning text or does it?



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 11:06 AM
link   
reply to post by apushforenlightment
 


Can a wealthy man enter heaven?
It would be easier to thread a camel through the eye of a needle
However, all is possible through God
Baptism takes place when you come to the realization that Christ died for our sins
The reason for Baptism is that you are professing your faith in Jesus
It symbolizes the resurrection and your re-birth into the Holy Spirit
edit on 15-6-2012 by redneck13 because: /



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 11:28 AM
link   


15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned Above is quite pushing of their view of everything and pushes for indoctination not true understanding by the beliver. Also a very dualistic view that the people who will not join the sect for whatever reason will be condemned. Not much love your brother and sister and let him evolve to understanding and god is not giving up on them is there? As if a little water will change anything if it is not a spiritual event for the one getting baptized. Seem like people like Gandi and Buddha are in trouble if this text is true. This do not seem to be an enlightning text or does it?
reply to post by apushforenlightment
 


i agree , with you 100% here , it does seem to push for indoctrination , according to "modern day western christens " just uttering the words , of Christ and "excepting him into your heart ?" is enough to be saved? and a baptism is not required , very confusing indeed ,




posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 11:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by redneck13
reply to post by apushforenlightment
 


Can a wealthy man enter heaven?
It would be easier to thread a camel through the eye of a needle
However, all is possible through God
Baptism takes place when you come to the realization that Christ died for our sins
The reason for Baptism is that you are professing your faith in Jesus
It symbolizes the resurrection and your re-birth into the Holy Spirit
edit on 15-6-2012 by redneck13 because: /


my good man ... that is all fine and dandy .......... but lets prove this to be true





new topics

top topics



 
10
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join