Being "Born Again" Linked to Brain Atrophy

I found this quite by accident, but upon reading it I thought...."well, that would explain a lot."
I leave you the link to the scource without further comment.


www.philly.com...

Is it Christian Bashing Day and I just missed the memo???

Like a dog with a bone around here today.

reply to post by Luminaught


" Older adults who say they've had a life-changing religious experience are more likely to have a greater decrease in size of the hippocampus, the part of the brain critical to learning and memory, new research finds."

Maybe it is what you have learned and memory that is the cause of the problem and having being born again is that part going away since it is useless for some.


I dunno, sounds like a poke at religion.

Originally posted by Luminaught
I found this quite by accident, but upon reading it I thought...."well, that would explain a lot."
I leave you the link to the scource without further comment.

www.philly.com...

Dear Luminaught,

How enlightening. You immediately accepted something, provide no information regarding the background of the people who made these comments and post it with "without further comment". You say it would explain a lot which means that you agree that believers are stupid. Yet, your OP shows no critical thinking or willingness to have a true discussion. That would be silly because you are using an article about a group of people who set out to see if believers were dumber, how objective do you believe that is as a starting point. You comment said it all, "that would explain a lot".

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Here.

That may be so, however, new scientific studies across several animal species, including humans, are challenging the notion that brain size alone is a measure of intelligence. Rather, scientists now argue, it is a brain's underlying organization and molecular activity at its synapses (the communication junctions between neurons through which nerve impulses pass) that dictate intelligence.

Here.

Cabbies who acquire "the knowledge", a stern test involving in-depth mastery of London's streets, suffer changes to their brains that could make them blinkered, research has shown. Those who pass the test develop more grey matter in the posterior hippocampus, the part of the brain they use to recall a mental map and calculate the shortest route from A to B. But this comes at a price because the tens of thousands of streets and landmarks they need to remember "fill up" their brain to its maximum capacity, researchers said. This only applies to the hippocampus, which is concerned with memory and spatial navigation, but it backs up previous research which shows taxi drivers struggle more than most drivers to adapt to changes in the road network or to driving in unfamiliar cities.

Here

The brain has plasticity. No, it's not made of plastic. It has the capacity for continuous alteration of the neural pathways and synapses and nervous system in response to experience or injury. What this means is, a healthy human being is not stuck in a situation where he "naturally" cannot do something. That person can alter his own brain in order to accomplish something that he thought he could never in his wildest dreams achieve.

The Proof - Brainlessness
For all of you out there who believe that the brain is made with all of the different parts relating to different skills already designated, you're in for a shock.

It's obvious that your cerebral cortex has a big impact on how you think. But studying exactly how it makes you smart is a little tricky, because:
Your brain is hard to get to -- it's encased in your skull.
Tools for looking at the brain, such as magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) machines, can require a person to be partially or completely still. This can make it hard for doctors to observe people's brain activity during real-life activities.
Brains, like all organs, undergo changes after a person dies. These changes may make it difficult to tell how someone's brain compared to other brains while that person was alive. In addition, postmortem examinations cannot evaluate brain activity.

Here.

Einstein's brain was slightly smaller than the average brain.

Now, onto your link:

Older adults who say they've had a life-changing religious experience are more likely to have a greater decrease in size of the hippocampus, the part of the brain critical to learning and memory, new research finds.

If the decrease is in size but not weight, making the Neurons denser? Then the possibility is that they actually might be gaining in ability to reason--that is, if they are becoming more like Einstein.

"One interpretation of our finding -- that members of majority religious groups seem to have less atrophy compared with minority religious groups -- is that when you feel your beliefs and values are somewhat at odds with those of society as a whole, it may contribute to long-term stress that could have implications for the brain," Amy Owen, lead author of the study and a research associate at Duke University Medical Center, said in a Duke news release.

Understand that they were comparing apples to apples. The religous to the religous. So your conclusion is out of left field, and not even pertinent to the data.

The study authors also suggested that life-changing religious experiences could challenge a person's established religious beliefs, triggering stress.

You know, this is the path of least resistance on this subject. Highly probable, highly provable.

Way to go with this one. If you're going to bash Christianity, you might want to look at the excuses that even the writer of the article gives before posting it. Shows a lack of forethought, at the least, and a lack of actual IQ, at the most.

reply to post by Luminaught


Please note that the irreligious also had more hippocampal shrinkage (according to the article) than those who were religious but more conservative.

The article did not link "brain atrophy" with being "born again". It clearly stated that a certain amount of brain atrophy was expected to occur in ALL people as they aged.

What the article did note was that the amount of hippocampal shrinkage was actually LESS in those who had a conservative and mainstream religious background, even that those with no religious belief.

I also browsed the Duke University website and was unable to locate any such article in their news section at, or near that date. (link - Duke University, Duke Today - News Releases)

I did find this paper which I believe is the one the article referred to: link - PLoS ONE: Religious Factors and Hippocampal Atrophy in Late Life.

Also, this was posted in the comments section:

Is it possible that -

(a) Hippocampal atrophy (or some non-pathognomonic reduction in volume) is age related?

(b) Given that all the subjects were 58+ years in age, the median size of hippocampus measured in non-believers is the right size (baseline) for that age or age-range?

(c) Introduction to religion at an early age, moderate religious feelings, participation in religious rituals and so forth may cause a surge of emotions - especially conflicting emotions and sentiments regarding religion, with increased exposure to different worldviews - which can lead to hippocampal hypertrophy in the believer group?

(d) Those who have experienced LCREs or found religion late ("born-again") are so firmly adherent to their belief systems, that they no longer experience any doubt, uncertainty or a lack of conviction - and therefore, are not subject to strong emotional upheavals in a chronic manner; as a consequence, their hippocampal volume returns to the baseline?

Would this be a valid alternative hypothesis?

Is christian bashing like Jew hate? ( "a trick we use it all the time")

While christians are allowed to do things like hate homosexuals, and support the slaughter of palistinians, it is not allowed to examine any facts with christianitys' deadly enemy science.

The article seems to be about the likely effects on the brain of the STRESS of knowingly being a member of a less mainstream form of christianity which is being persecuted by a more popular form of christianity...

thats christian bashing alright

just a curious note, in the study was there any particular criteria of lets say diet or geographical location or perhaps just maybe chemical poisoning due to pollutants? I am not so sure the study was done on a global basis which might lend it some credence however, like polls it only reflects the results of those polled.

Personally my Faith leaves me feeling enhanced not hindered so I am dubious about any study that I personally wasn't involved in as that would be the only way to gauge my brain and not be stereotypical with who knows what cross section of society which could have been heavy drinkers as far as I know.

Another factor could have been heavy television watchers that studies have shown does bring about a comatose state (alpha waves) and that is atrophy too when your brain stops working and awaits input from a boob tube.

just sayin

reply to post by Luminaught

I leave you the link to the scource without further comment.

What you left us was a lousy thread. In which you didn't even follow the guidelines.

I notice in difference to what Randy has said (above) that the word "more" ( as in "more brain atrophy" ) was left out of the thread title.
It does skew the topic slightly..

but comments about the thread aside what about the "science"?

Originally posted by Danbones
Is christian bashing like Jew hate? ( "a trick we use it all the time")

While christians are allowed to do things like hate homosexuals, and support the slaughter of palistinians, it is not allowed to examine any facts with christianitys' deadly enemy science.

The article seems to be about the likely effects on the brain of the STRESS of knowingly being a member of a less mainstream form of christianity which is being persecuted by a more popular form of christianity...

thats christian bashing alright

The OP left without "further comment" because they knew they had laid a huge pile of troll feces with a "That explains a lot" gift tag attached. So, yeah. It was left with that intention. You can choose to see it however you like of course and I am free to state my observation as well.

You can't really have a debate with "Leaving you without further comment".... IMO the thread was made with the intention of poking a wasp's nest with a stick and running.

Originally posted by Danbones
Is christian bashing like Jew hate? ( "a trick we use it all the time")

While christians are allowed to do things like hate homosexuals, and support the slaughter of palistinians, it is not allowed to examine any facts with christianitys' deadly enemy science.

The article seems to be about the likely effects on the brain of the STRESS of knowingly being a member of a less mainstream form of christianity which is being persecuted by a more popular form of christianity...

thats christian bashing alright

Dear Danbones,

Where in the bible does it say that "Christians" are allowed to "hate" anyone? I am a Christian and think I have to forgive everyone. What does the bible say, that I am to forgive or to hate? If I the bible says to forgive and I hate, am I a Christian? You have bad theology, were your parents Baptists?

reply to post by anoncoholic

Another factor could have been heavy television watchers that studies have shown does bring about a comatose state (alpha waves) and that is atrophy too when your brain stops working and awaits input from a boob tube

the problem could well be evangelical tv shows
there aren't that many mainstream religious shows
there are mostly minor forms of christianity represented on TV

Originally posted by AQuestion

Originally posted by Danbones
Is christian bashing like Jew hate? ( "a trick we use it all the time")

While christians are allowed to do things like hate homosexuals, and support the slaughter of palistinians, it is not allowed to examine any facts with christianitys' deadly enemy science.

The article seems to be about the likely effects on the brain of the STRESS of knowingly being a member of a less mainstream form of christianity which is being persecuted by a more popular form of christianity...

thats christian bashing alright

Dear Danbones,

Where in the bible does it say that "Christians" are allowed to "hate" anyone? I am a Christian and think I have to forgive everyone. What does the bible say, that I am to forgive or to hate? If I the bible says to forgive and I hate, am I a Christian? You have bad theology, were your parents Baptists?

That's a stereotypical viewpoint of a lot of non Christians. I am a Christian and feel the same way you do. A lotof us were taught to love everyone. Go figure.

Originally posted by AQuestion

Originally posted by Danbones
Is christian bashing like Jew hate? ( "a trick we use it all the time")

While christians are allowed to do things like hate homosexuals, and support the slaughter of palistinians, it is not allowed to examine any facts with christianitys' deadly enemy science.

The article seems to be about the likely effects on the brain of the STRESS of knowingly being a member of a less mainstream form of christianity which is being persecuted by a more popular form of christianity...

thats christian bashing alright

Dear Danbones,

Where in the bible does it say that "Christians" are allowed to "hate" anyone? I am a Christian and think I have to forgive everyone. What does the bible say, that I am to forgive or to hate? If I the bible says to forgive and I hate, am I a Christian? You have bad theology, were your parents Baptists?

exactly

the haters call themselves christians
don't blame me for that

you may search through the threads and comments around ATS for exactly the type of NON christian christian behavior I just described
I didn't make the behavior
I am not responsible for the behavior
I merely bring the hypocricy to the attention of the readers
why not address that issue ?

no that would be to easy

Originally posted by Kangaruex4Ewe

Originally posted by Danbones
Is christian bashing like Jew hate? ( "a trick we use it all the time")

While christians are allowed to do things like hate homosexuals, and support the slaughter of palistinians, it is not allowed to examine any facts with christianitys' deadly enemy science.

The article seems to be about the likely effects on the brain of the STRESS of knowingly being a member of a less mainstream form of christianity which is being persecuted by a more popular form of christianity...

thats christian bashing alright

The OP left without "further comment" because they knew they had laid a huge pile of troll feces with a "That explains a lot" gift tag attached. So, yeah. It was left with that intention. You can choose to see it however you like of course and I am free to state my observation as well.

You can't really have a debate with "Leaving you without further comment".... IMO the thread was made with the intention of poking a wasp's nest with a stick and running.

edit on 6/15/2012 by Kangaruex4Ewe because: (no reason given)

is it possible he is waiting for someone to address the issues raised in the article instead of the kneejerk "christian bashing comments" that is pretty much the sum total of debate so far?

reply to post by Danbones


Dear Danbones,

you may search through the threads and comments around ATS for exactly the type of NON christian christian behavior I just described I didn't make the behavior I am not responsible for the behavior I merely bring the hypocricy to the attention of the readers why not address that issue ? no that would be to easy

Silly boy, I did address it. I told you they are not "Christians" no more than if they call themselves chairs they become chairs. You have to actually believe in what the New Testament teaches to be a Christian; but, you can call yourself anything you want. It doesn't make it true. There are plenty of false Christians and false prophets around, I think the bible said there would be.

though it is off topice here let me quote the legal perspective on hate in the bible since we aren't going to discuss the op

"...the Biblical passage which suggest that if a man lies with a man they must be put to death exposes homosexuals to hatred." Justice J. Barclay, referring to Leviticus 20:13

Two well publicized court decisions -- one during 2002 in Saskatchewan, Canada, and one during 2004 in Idaho -- have ruled that advertisements or posters can be regarded as hate literature or as "demeaning and degrading" even though they consist mainly of citations or texts from the Bible. These courts did not rule that the Bible verses themselves are hate literature. But they did determine that in certain circumstances, Bible quotations or citations are not protected religious speech.

The two cases both involved conservative Protestants taking a negative view of homosexuality: Both cases involved references to Leviticus 20:13.

In the Canadian case, four Bible verses were cited -- one in Romans, two in Leviticus and one in 1 Corinthians. They were listed in a newspaper advertisement taken out by a conservative Christian in Saskatchewan. Beside the citation was a symbol made up of two male stick figures holding hands within a circle and a diagonal slash. The circle and slash is an international symbol indicating that the action is forbidden. The conservative Christian and the newspaper were both fined.
In the American case, a conservative Christian objected to his employers diversity training program which promoted tolerance of gay and lesbian employees in the workplace. He created some posters which listed a Bible quotation from Leviticus. It orders that male, sexually active gays be executed. If the poster were show in in a church, it probably would have been protected speech. But the employee mounted the posters in his work cubicle in an attempt to oppose the diversity program. He was eventually fired from his job. A court ruled that his employer did not infringing upon his civil rights by terminating him. They determined that the posters in that environment did not contain protected religious speech. They determined that the employees religious freedom was not hampered.

There is a general belief that Canadian and American citizens are guaranteed almost complete religious freedom. They are free to believe in any religion or none. But their freedom to act on their religious beliefs is not necessarily guaranteed -- particularly if their actions hurt or denigrate others.

www.religioustolerance.org...

apologies Op
I really am more interested in why the researchers found what they found myself
obviously god made things this way
but its not what these christians want to discuss

Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by anoncoholic

 

Another factor could have been heavy television watchers that studies have shown does bring about a comatose state (alpha waves) and that is atrophy too when your brain stops working and awaits input from a boob tube

the problem could well be evangelical tv shows

there aren't that many mainstream religious shows
there are mostly minor forms of christianity represented on TV

I had to star you for that. Benny Hinn came to mind