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So how much longer has America got? Really?

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posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 12:50 AM
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reply to post by liejunkie01
 


I don't have faith in fiat currency lasting much longer. The unregulated derivative market crashes then so will everything else. We are not to big to fail. Once one major market crashes all others will follow.
edit on 15-6-2012 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 12:54 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by hawkiye
 


Your the one that brought up welfare and the facts support that 15 out of the top 20 welfare states are red states, sorry if you have issues with that.

If a collapse happens do you think any of these states are still going to us mechanized farming? Do you also think tree hugger blue states will suddenly forget how to raise organic crops?

What side will be hurt the most cotton farmers or veggie gardeners?


I guarantee you there are more organic farmers in Idaho and Montana then states like CA and NY. The type of welfare you list those states can do without just fine, there won't be rioting over cutting off those fed funds to farming states there will be rioting over cutting off welfare checks in the big cities. Yes there will still be mechanical farming lots of farmers know how to make fuel. In fact Idaho has one of the largest ethanol plants in the country and could supply the entire region I mentioned. Even diesel and jet engines can be run on ethanol. Also Bio-diesel is not hard to make and farmers have the land to grow both not hippy veggie gardeners in the cities who hobby garden while collecting a welfare check...



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 01:00 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


Ok so Idahos 1.5 million population is going to defeat Oregon's 3.8 million or Washington states 6.8 million populations?

Edit to add, ok if the whole thing collapses who is going to riot against who? If the system breaks down you will be more concerned about food, water, and shelter and not so much of political ideology.
edit on 15-6-2012 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-6-2012 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 01:08 AM
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reply to post by liejunkie01
 





So the one';s that are saying that America will fail are the one's that are really kidding themselves. I have came to this conclusion after years of reading the same old crap day after day, month after month.

It will not happen, our 600 to 700 hundred billion dollar military budget garuntees this.


First of all it is a trillion dollar military budget and where do you think all the money comes from? it is borrowed into existence out of thin air at interest. How long do you think that can last? It never ceases to amaze me how the clueless base their conclusion on "because people have been saying it for years and it hasn't happened" and haven't bothered to look into how the system actually works. It's simple math.

To put it on simpler terms it is like living on a credit card and never paying the bill you can live high on the hog and everyone thinks you're rich but your not really rich its all credit there is no money and when the credit runs out everything gets repossessed.

All fiat money schemes in history have ended badly it is mathematically built in. You can only debase (look it up) the currency for so long before you dilute the value to worthlessness. The only reason the dollar is still kicking is the majority of the oil in the world is bought with it (that is another story). That is changing though and we are at the end of the fiat cycle. It might happen tomorrow next week or another couple years but it will happen the math does not lie. The folks at the top know it too and they are preparing for it as anyone who is paying attention can attest to.
edit on 15-6-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 01:12 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by hawkiye
 


Ok so Idahos 1.5 million population is going to defeat Oregon's 3.8 million or Washington states 6.8 million populations?

Edit to add, ok if the whole thing collapses who is going to riot against who? If the system breaks down you will be more concerned about food, water, and shelter and not so much of political ideology.
edit on 15-6-2012 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-6-2012 by LDragonFire because: (no reason given)


Exactly the point and the large populations will reduce themselves as they kill each other off over all the things you mention.

By the time they get to Idaho if they do there wont be many and they will be picked off before they can even see who is taking them out! Chances are they won't make it past eastern Oregon and Washington as the culture in the eastern halves of those states is more like Idaho and Montana...
edit on 15-6-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 01:25 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


You can easily see why I said that I can see the states splitting up into multiple countries based on red and blue? I seriously doubt war between these groups happening quickly, but eventually it will be inevitable. Your falsely assuming that blue states will end up with anarchy, I assume each state would face this to certain degrees.

However feel free to look at the number from both states they are even in most areas, except of course Idaho gets more federal dollars per person than Oregon:
Oregon Fact sheet
Idaho Fact sheet

You want this thread to be about red and blue why not add your opinion to the question asked by the op since your gonna post repetitively to this thread?



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 01:42 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 





First of all it is a trillion dollar military budget and where do you think all the money comes from? it is borrowed into existence out of thin air at interest. How long do you think that can last? It never ceases to amaze me how the clueless base their conclusion on "because people have been saying it for years and it hasn't happened" and haven't bothered to look into how the system actually works. It's simple math



In fiscal year 2011, the federal government spent $3.6 trillion, amounting to 24 percent of the nation's Gross Domestic Product (GDP). While the level of 2011 expenditures - as a share of GDP - remains high due to the economic downturn, the composition of the budget largely resembles the patterns of recent years. Of that $3.6 trillion, $2.3 trillion was financed by federal tax revenues. The remaining $1.3 trillion was financed by borrowing; this deficit will ultimately be paid for by future taxpayers. (See box for the recession's impact on the budget.) As shown in the graph below, three major areas of spending each make up about one-fifth of the budget:

■Defense and international security assistance: In 2011, 20 percent of the budget, or $718 billion, paid for defense and security-related international activities. The bulk of the spending in this category reflects the underlying costs of the Department of Defense and other security-related activities. The total also includes the cost of supporting operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, funding for which totaled $159 billion in 2011.:

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Clueless huh, not all of the money is borrowed, 2.3 trillion is financed through federal tax revenues.

I am in no way saying that borrowing 1 or 2 trillion is good. But it is not going to make us collapse anytime soon.



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 01:59 AM
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Originally posted by liejunkie01
reply to post by hawkiye
 





First of all it is a trillion dollar military budget and where do you think all the money comes from? it is borrowed into existence out of thin air at interest. How long do you think that can last? It never ceases to amaze me how the clueless base their conclusion on "because people have been saying it for years and it hasn't happened" and haven't bothered to look into how the system actually works. It's simple math



In fiscal year 2011, the federal government spent $3.6 trillion, amounting to 24 percent of the nation's Gross Domestic Product (GDP). While the level of 2011 expenditures - as a share of GDP - remains high due to the economic downturn, the composition of the budget largely resembles the patterns of recent years. Of that $3.6 trillion, $2.3 trillion was financed by federal tax revenues. The remaining $1.3 trillion was financed by borrowing; this deficit will ultimately be paid for by future taxpayers. (See box for the recession's impact on the budget.) As shown in the graph below, three major areas of spending each make up about one-fifth of the budget:

■Defense and international security assistance: In 2011, 20 percent of the budget, or $718 billion, paid for defense and security-related international activities. The bulk of the spending in this category reflects the underlying costs of the Department of Defense and other security-related activities. The total also includes the cost of supporting operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, funding for which totaled $159 billion in 2011.:

link

Clueless huh, not all of the money is borrowed, 2.3 trillion is financed through federal tax revenues.

I am in no way saying that borrowing 1 or 2 trillion is good. But it is not going to make us collapse anytime soon.


Yep clueless bub, I like how that link nefariously says "defense and security-related international activities" LOL

Here is the break down and it about 1.2 trillion. Check it out.

en.wikipedia.org...

And yes every penny in circulation is borrowed into existence so even tax money is borrowed money with interest attached before it gets to you or is why it can never be paid back. However the numbers in your links again are skewed.



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 02:09 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by hawkiye
 


You can easily see why I said that I can see the states splitting up into multiple countries based on red and blue? I seriously doubt war between these groups happening quickly, but eventually it will be inevitable. Your falsely assuming that blue states will end up with anarchy, I assume each state would face this to certain degrees.

However feel free to look at the number from both states they are even in most areas, except of course Idaho gets more federal dollars per person than Oregon:
Oregon Fact sheet
Idaho Fact sheet

You want this thread to be about red and blue why not add your opinion to the question asked by the op since your gonna post repetitively to this thread?


Your not getting it the cultures are different the red states tend to be more independent freedom minded. Where as the blue states tend to be more entitlement minded. Mind you there are pockets of both in all states but one prevails over the other.

Most people in the state have no idea how much federal funds their state gets as they are used mostly for government programs and to buy off police and schools etc to advance the fed agenda and many are not even aware of as they never see any of it. I am talking about direct welfare recipients who get a check from the state to live. That culture will riot and kill each other and many others when their checks get cut off in mass and the blue states most definitely have much larger populations of those people hence the entitlement mentality.

And I did answer the ops question...


edit on 15-6-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 02:23 AM
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The United States has changed so many times over the last few centuries that people forget we have been in situations much worse than we now face. The U.S. will adapt as it always does and when things get dicey...somethings comes around that puts us back where we need to be.

Right now...if it is allowed...and it is needed...Ultra-High Military Tech. we have that is of an Energy generating Nature...should be released. The only reason it hasn't is it's possible Military Apps.

We have VIABLE SOLAR ENERGY PRODUCTION METHODS. We have Low Temp. Fusion. We have an Energy Production Method based on the Einstein-Bose Condensate. OIL is a JOKE!

The U.S. has gone through much tougher times than these and will be around for a VERY LONG TIME.
Split Infinity



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 03:34 AM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
People living in Western Europe, decades after Rome collapsed still thought they were living in the Roman Empire.

I think the economic collapse will start in Europe. Then spread over all the Western world. I think the North American Union will be formed, but will fail mostly because of desertion by key financial, political and military assets.

I think Europe will be divided by Russian and Arab forces. North Korea will smash South Korea with the help from China and eventually China will dominate Australia and Japan.

I think whats left of the USA will be split between several different new nations, mostly based on red and blue boundaries but eventually the Blue nations will dominate the red nations.

When will this happen? Perhaps 7 days after Europe crashes.

edit on 15-6-2012 by missvicky because: This is the comment I meant to post: This smacks of an end result. And while it my be point on, it really doesn't address the OP's initial question (which more than a few of us have in mind) and it seems to glossover the PROCESS of all this happening, which to me, seems to point to true anarchy. Thoughts anyone???



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 06:52 AM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


Is it really any less ignorant to think that NOTHING is on the other side of that economic collapse wall? You think total anarchy will descend, or the nation will split? What could make that happen is the energy issues related to peak oil, but that is still a bit further off than the collapse is... the coal will last a few decades.



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 07:02 AM
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Originally posted by Shadow Herder
After the great wars

edit on 14-6-2012 by Shadow Herder because: (no reason given)


Yup. Nothing restores an economy better than war. All we have to do is take our pick:

1. Iran
2. Russia
3. China
4. North Korea
5. Any country in the Middle East

I'm guessing it will be: 6. All of the above.



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 07:06 AM
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Imagine the US paying 7% or more interest. Its now historically low.

IMO, some powers in the US are systematically attacking the Euro zone to protect themself.
Don't forget the crisis started in the US, many ex US bankers working at rating agency's (in the US), which before rated AAA derivatives which where junk, and many EU banks had big money in those AAA rated (worthless) products, which in turn gotten support by the EU governments.

After that every time the EU comes with some sollution, right after they come with new downgrades (by US agency's), making it worse and worse..
Of course the EU got blinded/clueless politicans.. (in that retrospect not much different as in the US I guess).

Greece which made deals with Goldman S to cover things up. So it's scary how much power they have, but as always it will backfire in the end, so we will we see who keeps standing, even when now all the focus is on Europe, when it goes bad with Europe, the US will follow?

Just my opinion of course, maybe I'm wrong, all I know the EU got their ass big in the US (for a long time), so I'm afraid they just can't see the picture then, can they?


So when things go bad in the US, it's when their interest payment on their debt, goes up high suddenly.
Again imagine the US paying 7% or more interest on their debt. Things go very fast then, when that happens, it's not sure.
Maybe with the new debt ceiling discussion (just close before the new elections I believe), you could see something happening suddenly.
edit on 15-6-2012 by Plugin because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by Deflagration
 


Well the Euro is on the outs- Spain's largest bank is downgraded from A+ to Bb- (junk credit) Ireland wants out of the Euro due to high interest and the debt is 110% GDP of the country, Portugal goes with Spain (though they are more self relient than Spain (higher rate of farmers and the mountain passes that protected the country for hundreds of years are easily closeable) And Italy's largest money exchanger (and afew of its banks) are on holiday.

So with the ponzi is falling apart in the EU zone, America cannot survive the Euro falling due to the "Global" economy (and the Federal Reserve gave Billions if not Trillions to bulk up the Euro) So even if TPTB can keep the fools plan in play, I see that August or October is when the economy poops the bed in the USA.

I use the 2008 elections as a marker as well as 2004, the economy and gas prices always seem to fall before each election, but always in Aug/Oct the economy and stockmarket TANKS and if we get another 2008 stock crash, it will be ten times worst, because the economy is WAY worst in 2012 than in 2008.

Hope this gave you a good view of the things to come, Bon Chance!



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 10:46 AM
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The exact date? Not certain to that but I do know that Damascus will be a ruinous heap first; that sort of seems inevitable now!

As for how long will take? A day! That's it, just a single day: REV 17-18



Therefor shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.


It is in the signs and the season, can we not see or hear it?

I am certain no one is more worried about which day than they that lived so deliciously with her (Babylon), as they are so entrenched in the debauchery of it all that they cannot simply walk away from her. Come out of her before it is too late.

Damascus will fall, then it will be a matter of a Day!



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by joeraynornone of the bank's money was ever real, so it won't take them long to invent the imaginary solution afterward


This is the most insightful and truthful thing I have seen written on ATS. Thank you sir for reviving my faith in humanity.



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
reply to post by hawkiye
 


Ok so Idahos 1.5 million population is going to defeat Oregon's 3.8 million or Washington states 6.8 million populations?


Well they did just find a man with the Black Plague in Oregon. It is not always black and white, there are many many shades of grey.



posted on Jun, 15 2012 @ 07:32 PM
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To me, it just seems like there are so many bubbles inflating right now... so many about to burst - economically, politically, environmentally, religiously...

Of course things have "always been wrong" but I have a feeling. And I can't describe it. Perhaps we really are a decade or two away, and perhaps just a few days, but it certainly doesn't feel like this is coming at a far off time.



posted on Jun, 18 2012 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by Deflagration
reply to post by libertytoall
 


Hmm, I seem to remember last time we were faced with this, the debt ceiling was raised and we all turned out "okay" over here. Why can't that just happen again?

I'm still convinced dark times are ahead though, and soon, I'm just unsure of when.



The problem is there's no room left to borrow money without our debt exceeding GDP. Once that line is crossed it's American Greece.. The best hope for the US is that Greece and and Euro collapse which in turn would make the US dollar stronger and quite possibly the standard currency for all international transactions. Just imagine owing more than your years salary in debt. Would you still be feeling like everything is flowers and sunny days? I can't imagine owing my salary in credit cards and then going beyond a years salary, which is what will happen next if the debt ceiling is raised again.. If the ceiling is raised again people will lose faith in the stability of US dollars.


Originally posted by Deflagration
To me, it just seems like there are so many bubbles inflating right now... so many about to burst - economically, politically, environmentally, religiously...

What bubbles do we have in the USA right now?? You said there are so many but I only see one, the bubble of government spending..( Which has failed and possibly shouldn't even be considered a bubble )


Of course things have "always been wrong" but I have a feeling. And I can't describe it. Perhaps we really are a decade or two away, and perhaps just a few days, but it certainly doesn't feel like this is coming at a far off time.


Don't worry if we continue meddling in the middle east China and Russia will join together to wipe America off the map.

edit on 18-6-2012 by libertytoall because: (no reason given)




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