Fasting, and my irrefultable results.

I cannot fast with water only...I tried it one time and felt like I was going to die, seriously I couldn't even walk straight by the end of the night, but if I drink milk and juice I can go a few days. The longest I've gone is 5 or 6 days with protein drinks but I still feel crazy by the end of it all!

When I read this:

Originally posted by elmoastro

Through operating the body as a machine that I have no identity with--think little guy in MIB--you start to use the body in new ways that go against mainstream understanding.

I dropped what was in my hands and went "ahhhhhh! ha!" This is something which I have been working on undersatnding for a while now and for some reason your quote gave me the next level of understanding. Thank you!

It's kind of like quitting smoking cigs, when you body starts to crave the nicotine, you can laugh at it, watch the craving, understand the craving, but not be too weak to give into it because you realize that you are the captain of the ship (body) and not the other way around. You can just watch and understand, even symphisize with the bodies cravings until they fade away into the ether.

Bravo, thanks again.

Originally posted by getreadyalready


BUT, this is only a very short-term emergency response, the body also begins mobilizing transport to begin metabolizing fat. Your body isn't going to eat up all the muscle before it begins eating the fat

Actually, in rats, studies have shown that when insulin is high enough (and sustained)--by lesioning the ventromedial hypothalamus--the inhibition of lypolysis is so dominate that the rats died of starvation while staying over-fat; skeletal muscle consumed first, followed by less important organs and, eventually, the heart (which is a muscle)... leading to heart failure and death.

In unhealthy people with elevated fasting insulin (type 2 diabetics, obese, insulin resistant), muscle will be consumed until insulin lowers. Period.

if you are continually exercising the muscle fiber through daily activities or workouts, then the body is going to protect that necessary fiber and concentrate more on the fat.

That depends on how strenuous the exercise, glycogen stores and slightly on body composition.

During rest and light exercise, your body will primarily burn fat (how much depends heavily upon how your body is partitioning fuel via the hormone insulin). During strenuous exercise--like weight lifting and sprinting--your body switches fuel... to glucose.

Here's why: Lipoprotein Lipase (LPL) is an enzyme which is absolutely needed to hydrolyze triglycerides in fat cells to allow uptake into cells (for storage or fuel). During rest and light exercise (in most relatively healthy individuals), LPL activity is increased in muscle and decreased in fat cells. During harder exercise, this reverses. LPL activity decreases in muscle and increases in fat cells, which leads to fat partitioning to fat cells so glucose can be used as quick fuel in times of strenuous activity.

These are silly arguments to be having. AS long as you are not starving yourself to death there is no problem with fasting.

Metabolically, there is a fine line between ketosis, fasting and starving.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


In those studies the insulin levels had to be kept artificially high. If someone is fasting, their insulin levels should bottom out and stabilize.

I'm not advocating long-term fasts like Gandhi did, but I don't believe a day or two at a time, or a week out of any given month would do any damage to musculature or bone density. I believe the positives outweigh the negatives. I've never been able to go longer than about 36 hours, but I applaud the people who do.

Again, there is a HUGE difference between Fastng, for a predetermined time and purpose, compared to someone that is bulimic or anorexic and becomes malnourished. The Fasting is also worthless if it is followed or preceded by binging.

Originally posted by rwfresh
The most proven diet/fitness related method for increasing life expectancy is calorie reduction. Look it up. Proven and demonstrated time and time again.

Really? Can you find those demonstrations for me? The only studies that have been completed on caloric restriction and its efficacy on increasing lifespan are on lesser animals, such as insects and small mammals. There IS a study being conducted now on primates that won't end for years from now; however, humans have not been properly studied on this.

Calorie restriction, or even fasting, may not even work for the simple fact that we, being humans, tend to compensate for a negative energy balance by eating more another time. Say, after a fast. Or once caloric restriction causes physiological responses that cause cravings.

I can cite many that demonstrate calorie reduced diet directly increasing life expectancy.

Find me a good study that demonstrates this in humans.

reply to post by imagineering


So.. you eat right and exercise and are surprised that you are getting healthier?

Not really sure the fasting was needed, but there is no denying the fact that if you stop eating your body will eat itself. Just be careful of starvation backlash.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

In those studies the insulin levels had to be kept artificially high. Perhaps abnormal, but not artificial. If someone is fasting, their insulin levels should bottom out and stabilize.

It's not artificial. And the effects of muscle wasting via elevated insulin levels are seen in many people with slight insulin resistance. Look at people who retain fat around their midsection while losing muscle in the arms/legs.

I'm not advocating long-term fasts like Gandhi did, but I don't believe a day or two at a time, or a week out of any given month would do any damage to musculature or bone density. I believe the positives outweigh the negatives. I've never been able to go longer than about 36 hours, but I applaud the people who do.

I certainly condone intermittent fasting of 24-48 hours. The amount of muscle wasting, if any, is negligible and easily replaced once protein is consumed again. I'm just really arguing semantics to make clean up some of the misinformation in this thread.

The Fasting is also worthless if it is followed or preceded by binging.

But...in humans it usually is. Gorging would be a better description of what happens following a fast.

Originally posted by Furbs
reply to post by imagineering

 

So.. you eat right and exercise and are surprised that you are getting healthier?

Not really sure the fasting was needed, but there is no denying the fact that if you stop eating your body will eat itself. Just be careful of starvation backlash.

I highly doubt that, I have done the "regular" eating right diets with almost zero results, plus the added benefits of extreme mental clarity would not have been obtained my just eating right and exercising. Keep researching.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd


In the study you quoted, the insulin level was articially elevated by Ventromedial Hypothalamic Lesions.

In a healthy person that begins fasting, the insulin levels would not be high. I'm sure there are many health problems that would preclude a person from fasting.

Also, a person does not want to lose too much fat too fast. Even if the body is operating normally, flooding the systems with dying cells can create all kinds of havoc, and someone who has had an extremely poor diet may have stored fat soluble poisons and vitamins in those cells, and they shouldn't be released all at once.

I'm agreeing with you to a certain extent, but since you are arguing semantics, just be sure to tell the whole truth, and not just one side of the truth.

The calorie restriction diet is another example. Sure, there haven't been long-term university studies, but there are plenty of personal stories out there, and there are the small lab animal studies, and it just makes logical sense that if you lower your metabolism it will lengthen your life barring any health complications or accidents. Animals with lower metabolisms typically live longer than animals with high metabolisms.

Humans are complicated and psychology comes into play a lot more than it does in other species. Does one really want a longer life if they can't enjoy the things they love? Might be a quantity vs. quality argument to be made there.

I used to suffer from meniere's disease, allergies with symptoms as bad as the flu, and I have osteoarthritis.

By changing my diet and using natural remedies I have solved most of my "dis-eases" myself.

At one point doctors advocated having both of my inner ears removed, which would have left me completely deaf. This was a viable option for them.

The medical system is sicker than its patients.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

 

In the study you quoted, the insulin level was articially elevated by Ventromedial Hypothalamic Lesions.

In a healthy person that begins fasting, the insulin levels would not be high. I'm sure there are many health problems that would preclude a person from fasting.

Let's argue terminology! By lesioning the VMH, insulin was abnormally elevated.

as lesions of the VMH area resulted in abnormal secretion not only of insulin.

It's abnormal, yes. But it's not artificial as people with tumors in this area of the brain end up with hyperinsulinemia as well.

Edit to add: To clarify, artificial would be if researchers were injecting subjects with insulin.

Also, a person does not want to lose too much fat too fast. Even if the body is operating normally, flooding the systems with dying cells can create all kinds of havoc, and someone who has had an extremely poor diet may have stored fat soluble poisons and vitamins in those cells, and they shouldn't be released all at once.

I guess. I mean... that's like saying "just eat healthily and you'll be healthy." It's pretty vague and ambiguous to say "don't lose too much fat too fast."

I'm agreeing with you to a certain extent, but since you are arguing semantics, just be sure to tell the whole truth, and not just one side of the truth.

What half truths am I telling? I'm talking about metabolic processes that have been observed and studied in the lab.

The calorie restriction diet is another example. Sure, there haven't been long-term university studies, but there are plenty of personal stories out there and there are the small lab animal studies, and it just makes logical sense that if you lower your metabolism it will lengthen your life barring any health complications or accidents.

But, if you're going to cite studies and such, you can't start mixing science with anecdotes. Most of the evidence points to calorie restriction being effective in humans, but we have a problem maintaining calorie restricted diets. This is where humans are very different from animals. Lab animals and humans in real life are two very different animals. After fasting, humans tend to compensate for the negative energy balance by eating more than normally in the following meals.

And just to point out... in science, there are tons hypotheses that make sense. But upon being tested, they fail. Theories look good all the time that end up being impractical. Assuming things in science can lead to some bad things for science.

reply to post by DevolutionEvolvd

It's abnormal, yes. But it's not artificial as people with tumors in this area of the brain end up with hyperinsulinemia as well.

I don't know how to be more clear. For the lab personnel to get the results you recited, they first had to intentionally lesion the hypothalmus to make the rats produce higher rates of insulin. It was artificial.

A very, very narrow subset of people may have pre-existing conditions that preclude them from fasting. So what? What does that have to do with the OP or the other 99% of people that might try it?

You are reciting risks that are basically non-existent. Following your logic, none of us should drive home tonight, because some narrow percentage of us will wreck and die.

Originally posted by imagineering

Originally posted by Furbs
reply to post by imagineering

 

So.. you eat right and exercise and are surprised that you are getting healthier?

Not really sure the fasting was needed, but there is no denying the fact that if you stop eating your body will eat itself. Just be careful of starvation backlash.

I highly doubt that, I have done the "regular" eating right diets with almost zero results, plus the added benefits of extreme mental clarity would not have been obtained my just eating right and exercising. Keep researching.

And yet you have done nothing different here save for starving yourself -before- beginning a regime of exercise and eating right. Your mind -does- focus when you are starving yourself. It is a biological trait used to find sources of food. I bet your sense of smell got better too, eh?

Originally posted by Furbs

Originally posted by imagineering

Originally posted by Furbs
reply to post by imagineering

 

So.. you eat right and exercise and are surprised that you are getting healthier?

Not really sure the fasting was needed, but there is no denying the fact that if you stop eating your body will eat itself. Just be careful of starvation backlash.

I highly doubt that, I have done the "regular" eating right diets with almost zero results, plus the added benefits of extreme mental clarity would not have been obtained my just eating right and exercising. Keep researching.

And yet you have done nothing different here save for starving yourself -before- beginning a regime of exercise and eating right. Your mind -does- focus when you are starving yourself. It is a biological trait used to find sources of food. I bet your sense of smell got better too, eh?

Disagree. The mental clarity is an after effect of ridding my body of toxic foods and chemicals, I call it the "fast food fog". Thank you for your input. Keep researching.

i've fasted for 5 days (nothing but water)
felt great. but I've got an eating disorder... so..... yeah

fasting is a great thing.
just don't get carried away!

I must add, that it is very interesting to see all the skeptics here. Trying to refute something they have not tried nor researched, reminds me of my old thinking, back in the days when I was a skeptic too. All I am doing, my only reason for posting this thread is because it WORKED for me, I am not here to argue or be disrespectful, or start the ATS pissing match that happens all to often here. Albert Einstein said "Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance" . So I can only encourage those who have never tried fasting or demonize it like I once did, to give it an honest try and if it fails in your life then share your experience respectfully. My results are irrefutable, PERIOD!

reply to post by imagineering


You can disagree as much as you like, but without science to back up your claims, you are simply working from too small of a sample with no control. That isn't good research.

Much has been studied involving starvation and mental acuity because of eating disorders like Anorexia Nervosa. Once you start linking 5-HT 2A to hunger activity, the more you fast, the better you feel.

While this isn't citing actual research, it will help lead you to further research.

www.scienceofeds.org...

reply to post by Furbs


Disagree....
I cant deny the facts when it is perfectly clear and staring at me in the mirror. But thats ok, like I said I am not going to argue nor look at your links. Thanks though, all respect.

Originally posted by sean
Why not just do a high protein diet?? You don't have to starve yourself doing it. After a week or two your body will go into ketosis and start burning fat for energy instead of direct sugar/carbs. After that you will be burning 1lb of fat a day doing absolutely nothing.

High protein diets are a good way to damage your organs and bones/teeth. Excess protein must be eliminated from the body as well as the uric acid waste products from meat digestion, if meat is one of your sources of protein. Unless you're eating large green salads with every meal (and possibly even if your are,) you have a high probability of deplenishing your mineral reserves as they will be used to isolate these waste products.

High protein diets are a major contributor to disease in western nations so not really a good idea. Instead of dieting, just start eating properly on raw, organic fruit, vegetables, nuts and seeds. Everything else is contrary to our physiology and will undermine our health to some degree.

I have gone (mostly) vegan and (mostly) dropped down to 1 meal per day. Similar results, the fog is gone, lost10kgs, well being is higher.

I mostly think the removal of lactose products is the game winner. But it is also well known that meat and processed food can lead to high blood pressure, cancer, diabetes etc etc.