Fasting, and my irrefultable results.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

Originally posted by rwfresh
If you eat 2500 calories of high sugar fruit like dates or bananas but your BMR is 3000 kcal you will lose weight. guaranteed.

If you eat 2500 calories of McDonald's burgers and fries but your BMR is 3000 kcal you will lose weight. guaranteed.

Can you tell me what happens differently to the metabolic hormones?

Give me all the details of the person and i can give you the details you are looking for. Age, sex, activity level, weight, BF%, medical history.

Can you tell me what happens when you do these two diets for a week... say when the BMR begins to increase to compensate for an increase in calories.

Increase in calories? What increase. There is a 500 cal deficit.

If you eat

Im actually going to start a fast tomorrow, so it is nice to comes across this thread today with so many experienced fasters and the like. I have had a very bad diet for months combined with many stag do's, so I owe it to my body for a detox. Has been a few years since my last fast so Im going to go for a 2-4 day fast, depending how i go and then perhaps do a couple every month. I hope the fast tomorrow goes aswell and eay as my post about it does

Originally posted by rwfresh

Can you tell me what happens when you do these two diets for a week... say when the BMR begins to increase to compensate for an increase in calories.

Increase in calories? What increase. There is a 500 cal deficit.

My apologies, I was rushing. To be more realistic, since it's highly unlikely that you'll find someone with a BMR of 3000kc: If you were to eat 1000kc of burgers and fries and your BMR is 2000kc, you'll begin to lose weight. Whether that's fat or lean body mass will depend heavily on insulin levels. In any case, but especially if lean mass is being lost, BMR will begin to lower. Body heat will reduce, hunger will increase, cravings will increase and energy loss/lethargy will begin.

www.theglobeandmail.com...

What's his body fat percentage? Did he lose muscle mass or fat? Did you know he also ate protein shakes and multivitamins? How many shakes did he drink a day? I honestly couldn't care less about anecdotes. You're determining "healthy" based on blood lipids and BMI...over a two month period. Just a reminder: When you eat less than you burn, your body will compensate (smart, remember?) by synthesizing less molecules... including cholesterol. Those numbers probably don't don't mean much.

If you eat an excess of 100 calories a day for a year, you'll have gained about 10lbs, right? Well, no. Mathematically that works. And calorically that works. But physiologically it doesn't. You're right, the body is smart. It works to maintain homeostasis. In extreme cases (like an 800 calorie deficit), the body can't maintain that homeostasis. In real life cases, it can and does by inducing cravings and reducing cravings. Increasing body temperature/decreasing body temperature. By making you tired or "full of energy." These things combined work together to reach energy balance.

www.thefruitarian.com...

Not sure why you posted this. Is it to prove that someone can be a frugivore? Or that you can eat that much sugar and not die of a diabetic coma? Well, yeah. You can... if you're eating it throughout the day and if you're burning it through running 16 miles a day. Jesus. Remember... let's look at real life examples. Not these ridiculous extremes.

Regardless of physiology, I find it hard to believe that there was ample fruit for us to sustain and thrive as early humans in the wild.

What would happen if you ate 3000 calories of fat over your BMR? You would get fat. You want more details?

Yeah... you'd get fat, but you wouldn't run the risk of hyperglycemia.

eating less calories of ANY diet will produce guaranteed results. And it's not anymore complicated than that.

Ok it's more complicated. There is a secret that statistically has more effect on weight loss than calories. No there isn't. I can post thousands of studies, articles, papers, PERSONAL stories etc.

If it's so obvious and easy, then why do the majority of obese people fail when simply cutting calories? Why do leading obesity experts readily admit that caloric restriction does not work long term? The people who do this for a living will tell you to your face that the efficacy of restricting calories on treating obesity is unimpressive.

I don't understand the motivation to argue the obvious. I am not some nutritional scientist with secret knowledge that you yourself don't already know. It is simple for 99% of the population. Yes other things can have an effect on weight-loss when you get to extremely low BF. But the effect is DWARFED by the law of calorie in calorie out for 99% of overweight people. Eat less, lose weight. Simple as that.

You mean the first law of thermodynamics? I understand that it seems simple. And I understand how thermodynamics work. Maybe it's your lack of expertise or scientific know how... but you're confusing cause and effect. You're also forgetting one major important factor... the first law applies to closed systems which the body is not.

Change in Energy Store = Energy In - Energy Out

All that says is: The change in how much fat we carry, or how much energy we carry, is equal to the amount of food energy we consume less the amount of energy we burn. That's it. There is no arrow of causation. For all we know, a change in energy stores could be causing energy out (which it does) or energy in (which it probably does).

You're also assuming that the variables are independent, which they are not. What you eat will change how you expend energy. Not only how much you eat... but also WHAT you eat. This is not controversial.

This isn't controversial but, when discussing weightloss/gain, we ignore it and simply say "calories in - calories out." And that just isn't how it works.

reply to post by getreadyalready


This is what I meant to show you about insulin levels being high...

en.wikipedia.org...

Prader-Willi syndrome is a genetic disorder that, like VMH lesions, affects hypothalamus function. Individuals with this syndrome are almost always obese and hyperphagic. However, feed someone with PWS a high-fat, low-carb diet and fat will be released from the cells to be used as fuel and hunger will decrease suggesting the real problem is insulin's influence on fat deposition.

reply to post by rwfresh


I'll let the experts show you what I'm talking about:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Maintenance of a reduced or elevated body weight is associated with compensatory changes in energy expenditure, which oppose the maintenance of a body weight that is different from the usual weight. These compensatory changes may account for the poor long-term efficacy of treatments for obesity.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Overall, participants lost slightly more weight on the control diets but this was not significantly different from the weight loss achieved through dietary fat restriction and was so small as to be clinically insignificant.

Just remember, there are real pushes in the media's for health, that are often the exact opposite of what we truly need.

Fasting in hibits idodine function. And that leads to thyroid fog and a host of other conditions. It prevents T4 to T3 conversion.

Also, metabolism can be greatly enhanced by taking a good amount of iodide, suggested amount is akin to Asian/Japanese diet of 1500 mcg's a day, so roughly 5 drops of trophic iodine, though iodine is greatly lied about nutrient, and larger amounts are detox and used for many conditions. Essential and most people are deficient.

If you take say 1500 mcg, roughly, and 3 grams of Vit C, daily, at the same time, you are tweaking your metobilism, you are also bringing clarity of mind, good brain chemicals and increasing intelligence.

The dosage however in mg's (add 3 zero's), for treating deficiency, and 70% or more of the earth is deficient, is 12.5-50 grams. That would be considerably higher and my drops don't cut it even. And so the cyrstal is supposed to be far more cost efficient.


"Iodine: The Misunderstood Nutrient" - David Brownstein

Between the fasting and this, I know my choice.

Well if you are fat then yeah I guess it could be good. However for those of us who are physically fit doing would be retarded and cause us to die.

reply to post by KryptKeeper


If you're referring to the fasting, it doesnt actually lead to faster metabolism and health but its opposite. Good nutrients and idodide/vit C, B2 B6 B12, selenium, zinc, vit A and Iron are essential.

And iodide is for everyone daily, for life.

Iodine and salt are the 2 most beneficial things to balance PH in body. And its a REAL CONSPIRACY, how with the Nazi's and Nuclear/Manhatten Project stuidies showed them exactly what to target and remove, they more or less targetted the most essential nutrients and removed them.

The areas that flouride and bromine attach are Iodine/Iodide receptors and the results have been horrendous. Mercury added to fillings and vaccinations, flouride to water, its all to create LOGAN's RUN, poor health and death, and keep everyone in a perpetual Brain Fog. Including China and its contribution of ignoring the bans on lead paint.

I would not add fasting to the mix.

Ensure you are taking in adequate nutrients and lots of iodide and salt, and water, and good PH levels.

My message to all the Fascist Controllers involved in this horrendous torture and diminishing of humanity WE HAVE FREE WILL, SO BEGONE!

I consider Iodine/Iodide and the things needed such as D and C, to be so very important that its paramount to saving your life, from this NWO hideous campaign.

Fasting is one of the iodine and thyroid blocks. However if one is doing these scheduled fasts, ensure optiminum health by keeping your sysem iodine, salt, water, and soda/PH 7.77.

Remember the God number is 777. That is for a reason.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


No that is a common myth. You burn fat long before you burn muscle. Guess why? Muscle is a horrible source of energy. Fat? It's a great source of energy. It is energy, just stored in a nice little space so that the body can easily access it.

That said, fasting is an incredibly stupid idea. I wont deny it takes mental strength. That it surely does. But fasting for two weeks? That could kill you. Especially when you are out physically exerting yourself an hour a day. With only water to drink you're going to be severely at risk for having an electrolyte imbalance and just flat out dieing.

You'll also probably gain the weight back.

I should add, that fasting isn't a terrible idea all together, but the length of time that the OP went for is a dangerous idea, and im surprised they have no immediate health problems due to it.

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

No that is a common myth. You burn fat long before you burn muscle. Guess why? Muscle is a horrible source of energy. Fat? It's a great source of energy. It is energy, just stored in a nice little space so that the body can easily access it.

Except that the brain requires about 130g of glucose per day. After one day of fasting, that glucose comes from protein in skeletal muscles. Not to mention if someone is hyperinsulinemic the body will take time before oxidizing fat for ATP... instead protein, again, from skeletal muscle will be used to glucose for fuel.

You'll also probably gain the weight back.

No doubt. And most studies support this claim (for long term fasting).

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by rwfresh

 

I'll let the experts show you what I'm talking about:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Maintenance of a reduced or elevated body weight is associated with compensatory changes in energy expenditure, which oppose the maintenance of a body weight that is different from the usual weight. These compensatory changes may account for the poor long-term efficacy of treatments for obesity.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Overall, participants lost slightly more weight on the control diets but this was not significantly different from the weight loss achieved through dietary fat restriction and was so small as to be clinically insignificant.

I don't want to ridicule you.. because i don't know what your motivation or intent is.

"The review suggests that fat-restricted diets are no better than calorie restricted diets in achieving long term weight loss in overweight or obese people."

The fat-restricted diets are also calorie restricted. Do you understand this? And BIG SURPRISE. Where the calorie restriction comes from makes no significance. You have to understand that what they concluded is reducing fat specifically or straight ahead eating less overall produces the same result. WEIGHT LOSS.

I've already stated this. Fat has 9 calories per gram. It is the most calorie dense macro nutrient. This is where the whole reduced fat idea comes from. By reducing fat you are significantly reducing your overall calorie intake. In a much more pronounced way than attempting to reduce either carbs or protein which are less calorie dense.. by far.

This study proves what is completely obvious. Reduce calories lose weight. simple. Go an re-read it in detail if you are confused.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

No that is a common myth. You burn fat long before you burn muscle. Guess why? Muscle is a horrible source of energy. Fat? It's a great source of energy. It is energy, just stored in a nice little space so that the body can easily access it.

Except that the brain requires about 130g of glucose per day. After one day of fasting, that glucose comes from protein in skeletal muscles. Not to mention if someone is hyperinsulinemic the body will take time before oxidizing fat for ATP... instead protein, again, from skeletal muscle will be used to glucose for fuel.

You'll also probably gain the weight back.

No doubt. And most studies support this claim (for long term fasting).

"After one day of fasting, that glucose comes from protein in skeletal muscles"

What is adipose for then. When do you suppose it is broken down?

Almost all your health benefits come from the loss of sugar in your liver, and the associated water your body carries to move the sugar through the body. When most people have high blood pressure, their doctor tells them to cut back on salt. The same with people who have congestive heart failure. The disservice their doctor does is by not telling them that it is even MORE effective to cut out sugar, as sugar is more pervasive and requires MORE water to move through your body (the old nursing saying is "water follows salt"...and more water follows sugar).

As the sugars in your liver are processed and removed, your body stops craving carbohydrates. As this happens, your body will go into Ketosis as body fats are burned. Any fats you take in to your body will be burned, or just passed through.

While you keep your carbohydrate intake low, your blood cholesterol begins to drop. This is because blood cholesterol is a by product of sugar in your liver. Your body requires fat as energy. The sugars are converted to fats and then distributed as a power source for your body.

This keeps hunger low, and water low in the body. Fat is burned, and the ketones help to drive hunger further down. In this state fasting is possible. You can literally do it until you lose your body fat. Just make sure you continue to take in a few proteins daily (and a multi vitamin for essential nutrients) to keep organs from being broken down (or skeletal muscle).

I eat low carb (20g/day). I could go days without eating, if there weren't social aspects that I partake in with my family.

Fascinating thread.

I've fasted for a day at a time or just passed on meals (eg only had 1 meal/day) and always feel better for it. As for how long you can safely fast, Jesus fasted for 40 days (interestingly, I believe the main reason he did thus was to achieve mental clarity) and there's no mention in the bible of him suffering any ling term effects from it.

reply to post by imagineering


The 2 weeks that you are fasting...do you just drink water? Do you take any vitamins at this time? Do you have regular bowel movements?

After the 2 weeks of fasting are over....what do you eat? Please provide a whole day's menu.

What exercise do you do?

This inquiring mind wants to know...

reply to post by rwfresh


For fuel, of course! I've already explained this throughout this thread.

Fasting, and eating a ketogenic diet, can decrease the glucose demands from the brain. Fat oxidation has a by-product called Ketones. The brain can utilize ketones (and can the rest of the body) as fuel and lower glucose demands to under 100g.

There's still a need, however, for glucose. During a fast, it comes from muscle protein.

Originally posted by DevolutionEvolvd
reply to post by rwfresh

 

For fuel, of course! I've already explained this throughout this thread.

Fasting, and eating a ketogenic diet, can decrease the glucose demands from the brain. Fat oxidation has a by-product called Ketones. The brain can utilize ketones (and can the rest of the body) as fuel and lower glucose demands to under 100g.

There's still a need, however, for glucose. During a fast, it comes from muscle protein.

I think you are somewhat confused about the process. Or the context of the question has been confused. Your brain can absolutely use ketones and they will definitely be used during a fast. This is why modern medicine is finally understanding how the use of MCT oil is a restorative and preventative therapy for diseases like Parkinsons and Alzheimers where these diseases act like a diabetes of the brain.

You've steered the argument away from what you were originally claiming to refute.

Fat, skinny, whatever. Eat less and you will lose weight.

If you have a high BF%, obese, and eat below your BMR you will lose fat. The amount of muscle tissue you will lose in comparison to fat is negligible. The higher the BF the more negligible this is.

If you want to cite something that refutes this go for it. Or don't. My point i guess is for people that might actually want a simple solution for losing weight and may have been confused by all the misinformation about WHAT to eat. When the REAL issue (first and foremost for Obese people) is HOW MUCH to eat.

Anyway, done. Peace. Don't mean to act like an argumentative prick. Some of what you are saying is correct. But not really directly contradicting my main point.

Originally posted by Miraj
That said, fasting is an incredibly stupid idea. I wont deny it takes mental strength. That it surely does. But fasting for two weeks? That could kill you. Especially when you are out physically exerting yourself an hour a day. With only water to drink you're going to be severely at risk for having an electrolyte imbalance and just flat out dieing.

You'll also probably gain the weight back.

I should add, that fasting isn't a terrible idea all together, but the length of time that the OP went for is a dangerous idea, and im surprised they have no immediate health problems due to it.

I'll say it again. If done properly, there is little to no danger, but every unique individual is different and will respond differently to fasting. Always listen to your body. You'll know if something is wrong. When you fast, you shouldn't be out physically exerting yourself more than your basic walking. That's a big no-no. Your metabolism slows down when you fast. With juice fasting you can still work out and continue your physical activities, but not with water. Of course fasting can kill you. So can walking down the street. That doesn't mean it's bad or dangerous. You just have to look both ways before crossing, much like with fasting you need to know the proper procedures. I know people that are physically fit and fast once every year and are some of the healthiest people I know.

Fasting doesn't replace diet and exercise, however, and shouldn't be used as a weight loss program. You will gain it all back unless you eat healthy and exercise once it is complete. Being fit is a lifestyle choice, and fasting cannot replace that. It can promote healing and cleansing of the body, however. Usually I fast when I tweak a knee or ankle or something similar. It just makes the healing process so much faster. One time I twisted my ankle running down hill and couldn't run on it for almost 6 months. I tried taking it easy, avoiding putting weight on it when I could, but the thing just wouldn't fully heal. I decided to fast and within 2 weeks I noticed substantial improvement. I broke the fast and within a couple more weeks it was fully healed.

I hope you don't mind if I answer based on my experience.

Originally posted by caladonea
reply to post by imagineering

 

The 2 weeks that you are fasting...do you just drink water? Do you take any vitamins at this time? Do you have regular bowel movements?

Originally I thought that you needed supplements when fasting, but the body should be able to get most essential nutrients by digesting the stored fat. Taking vitamins on an empty stomach can be brutal. Just imagine doing that after not eating for 5 days. I wouldn't recommend it. If you do take a vitamin you should only use a tiny amount and smash it up thoroughly and mix it with water.

Bowel movements are far from regular. They are usually almost pure liquid and only happen every 3 days or so.

After the 2 weeks of fasting are over....what do you eat? Please provide a whole day's menu.

For me, the first day is 1 orange (or similar juicy fruit in season) broken up into 5 small meals every 2 hours or so. The second day is 2 oranges broken up into 5 meals. The third day I integrate grapes or strawberries, depending on what's in season and increase portions of orange. On day 4 I integrate in green cooked vegetables (or uncooked dark leafy greens like spinach) and increase portions of fruit. No salad dressing or spices yet. On day 5 I throw some nuts & grains into the mix. By day 6 you can incorporate meat proteins again (small portions). By day 7 you should be close to normal and can incorporate oils and seasonings back into your diet. You should still eat mostly fruits and vegetables for the next week. The general rule of thumb is that for as many days as you fast, you should spend slowly reintroducing the foods so this regiment may vary depending on how long I fast for. Sometimes I do 1 week, sometimes 2 depending on how I feel and my body responds. Fruits are best to start because they are easy to digest and slowly start speeding your metabolism back up.

What exercise do you do?

Very little. I stretch a little bit and maybe go for a 15 minute walk depending on my energy level.

I hope this helps