I can prove God exists and help you learn to listen

I will offer some proof that there is more at work in this world than simply human nature, call it sort of a self test. No need to share your answer just test yourself. What things have you done in your life that you knew were wrong but you did them anyway? I will share something as an example. I flirted with a married woman.

So why did I flirt with the married woman? I knew it was wrong but I had a desire to do it anyway. But still why did I follow that desire? What did I do that convinced me to go ahead and flirt with her? I justified my behavior. But wait I knew it was wrong so where did that justification come from. Could it really come from me? What was the justification?

"If she flirts back than she is not happy in her marriage so it's ok to flirt with her." Does that sound like a thought that originates from a man who knows what he is doing is wrong? Why the need to justify the behavior?

You see we live in a society of self justification. We surround ourselves with others who do the same wrong as us and justify each other. Everything we do becomes justified. At some point we get so caught up in our justification that we actually start to believe that we are justified.

Was the seed of justification planted by us or some other force? If you believe that the seed is self planted than why do we exhibit behavior that we don't condone. Why would I justify that it is ok for me to flirt with a married women when I wouldn’t want anyone flirting with my wife. Doesn't this suggest the seed is planted by some other force?

Jesus says if your hand causes you to sin cut it off. Pretty drastic right? But what is the root of what he is saying. Whatever causes you to sin cut it out of your life. You see he is not implying that you sin because you desire to be a bad person who hurts other, what he is implying is there are things that make you commit sin and you need to get rid of them.

So what caused me to sin? Listening to the message of justification. So what do I need to do? I need to cut off that justification before it grows in me and I begin to believe my behavior is justified. Many things cause us to sin, the internet, our cell phones, or listening to the message of justification. Repenting is the act of cutting off those things that make you sin at their root. Turn off your internet, put down your phone, and don't allow a message of justification to enter your heart and cause you to do what you knew was wrong.

God talks to everyone. I love the quote from "The Great Dictator" with Charlie Chaplin which is also, in part, a quote from the bible. "The Kingdome of God is within man, not one man, not a group of men, but in all men" You see God is with you and does talk to you. The voice that guides you to do good and to stop justifying your bad behavior. But he does not force you to listen nor does he force you to find the Kingdome of God that is within you.

If you can cut off those things that cause you to do wrong and listen to the voice that is guiding you to do what is right you will know that you are following God. There is also proof of this. God saved one emotion for us to know that we have done his will. The emotion of Joy. When we do what is right we are filled with Joy in this way we know that our father is pleased with us.

Too many men are waiting around for a day of judgment that will come. They wear the veil of Moses because they fear God. Jesus came to lift the veil and teach a man how to become free from sin. But because of our transgressions and our harden hearts we refuse to do what we know we ought to do. It is this refusal that leaves us living in fear.

The truth, the Day of Judgment is today. It was always today and until Christ returns it will continue to be today. Today is the day you can turn from sin and escape the judgment of your loving father. If an earthly father judges their children's actions and disciplines them today, and we are made in his image, don’t you think our heavenly father judges us today?

Different religions call this different things but the reality is somehow we all know that you can't go around doing what is wrong and think that there will be no negative outcome.

We have convinced ourselves that the concepts of good and evil our inherently part of our nature. And in some ways we are right. But in doing so we have eliminated the outside forces that drive us. Since we have become convinced that we do evil because we simply cannot seem to do what is right we have become a slave to the desires of our flesh. If you can step back from that way of thinking and understand that what causes a man to sin is a seed and what causes a man to do what is righteous is also a seed than you can choose which seed to water. You can see that it is no longer you and your consciousness that drives you but rather two outside forces both planting their seed in you. Now that you know the seed of justification did not originate from you, you can learn to overcome it by watering the good seed.

So maybe you don’t think I proved God exists but would you be willing to cut off all the justification for your bad behavior and see if God fills you with Joy for doing so. He believes in you even when you don’t believe in him. If you have the courage to cut off your justification he will fill you with Joy so that you know he is real.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Your using humans desire of right/wrong to justify that God exists.

However, human conciousness of right/wrong is proven to not be a "supernatural" reason, but more simply the society that we are born into.

For example some native tribes in India have no concept of war, and settle their differences without the use of violence. Anyone in their tribe who does use violence is frowned upon.

In some native New Guinean tribes they value war, and hold the highest honour for the best fighters.

Both tribes believe their society is right and the other version is wrong. God has nothing to do with freewill.

Turn off your internet, put down your phone,

reply to post by sacgamer25


if this is what we should do, how will we read this post? let me ask you this, what if free will is the only God that exists?

You sinned, ergo god exists.

Righto.

Maybe you just don't really care about the feelings of the other man, or the woman, or their marriage, or their children...

Nah, it's proof that god exists.

Wow, got me sold.. I shall to and shag the neighbours wife post haste, so as to prove god exists to others...

reply to post by sacgamer25


Of course that there is more at work than what people think of as human nature, silly. But it's not what you'd like to think of as god. Maybe try harder..

I dont even...

to me it seems like you are trying to rationalize the human condition without the philosophical tools or understanding to do it, so therefore, god.

so you were tempted to do something that would negatively impact more then one person, but now that you have stopped, you feel good about yourself, so therefore, god? no. it seems like you are using this god figure to justify being a decent human being as if you have no control over it, that feeling of joy is not a gods warmth, it is you realizing, hey, im not going to be a dick today, and that makes you feel good about yourself.

the speech given in the great dictator, I honestly think of it having nothing to do with the bible or a god. he is saying that there is no reason for us to act the way we do. there is no great kingdom, we can create our own perfect world, we need to stop looking into imaginary things when we all have the power to change this world. it is just unfortunate those in power do not want to see a perfect world, in a perfect world, they would lose their "power".

Originally posted by sacgamer25 They wear the veil of Moses because they fear God. Jesus came to lift the veil and teach a man how to become free from sin. But because of our transgressions and our harden hearts we refuse to do what we know we ought to do. If an earthly father judges their children's actions and disciplines them today, and we are made in his image, don’t you think our heavenly father judges us today?

He believes in you even when you don’t believe in him. If you have the courage to cut off your justification he will fill you with Joy so that you know he is real.

Luke 18:13-14 "But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, 'O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.' I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."
Isaiah 66:2 Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD. "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word.
You said that "They wear the veil of Moses because they fear God", you make it sound like fearing God is a bad thing when the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and to depart from evil is understanding, knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. Jesus told the Pharisees that they justify themselves before men but God knows their hearts. Jesus told people to fear God and that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. God made man upright but they have sought out many schemes. Jesus said that by our words we are justified and by our words we are condemned, He said that He is the sower of the good seed and that when we attain that seed by the wayside, the birds come and devour the seeds sown in our hearts.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Interesting line of thought. Another way to go about this proof is through the historical independent evidence for the resurrection. I am currently only in the early couple of chapters of the book The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus and the evidence is already devastating to any atheists or non-Christians beliefs. I will try post a thread on the best evidence in the book once finished, hopefully in a few weeks time.

The avenue of the resurrection is particularly poignant because it not only shows that Jesus is an actual person who existed but that he is God as well because he conquered death.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


By Lee Strobel or Dr. Gary Habermas?

reply to post by CrimsonKapital


I know it can sound that way but look deeper at what i am saying. It is not desire and sin that prove God, it is the internal struggle. If its simply human nature to have these desires than why do we struggle with them? If something was natural than we would naturally do it without conflict. But we do the things that we know we shouldn't do. I know its not good to jump off a cliff and i don't because the outcome is death and I can't justify this to myself. But when it comes to the desires of man I find a way to justify behavior that i know is wrong.

Satan is called the accuser. He plants the seed of justification and we water it by allowing ourselves all too easily to do what we know we should not do. Once we have done what we should not do the justification takes root and we allow ourselves to feel justified. Once we justify our actions we accept something that we know is not right to take root in our life.

We become a slave to our own justification and we seek out others who have justified the same wrong acctions. The sin doesn't matter, alcoholism, addiction to pornography, or covetousness. Once we justify the behavior we become a slave to it.

If you believe thier is no God and no accuser than you only have yourself. How can you defeat yourself. If you can accept that it is not you that planted the seed of justification than you can learn how to cut off the justification before it takes root in your life.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I have read Lee Strobel's one already about 18 months ago and thought it was very good but from the review comments on Amazon I have decided to start reading Gary R. Habermas's one now as it is seen as an even stronger case. Whatever thread I do on it will prob combine elements of both books although I expect to find a lot of cross-over of argument.

I am wondering to if the 2009 Habermas book, 'Did the Resurrection Happen?: A Conversation with Gary Habermas and Antony Flew' is worthwhile as well. The book is about half the size only and covers the atheist perspective as well. Just wondering if it would lead to a stronger argument or if all the info I would need is in Habermas's 2004 book anyway.

Originally posted by mainidh
You sinned, ergo god exists.

Righto.

Maybe you just don't really care about the feelings of the other man, or the woman, or their marriage, or their children...

Nah, it's proof that god exists.

Wow, got me sold.. I shall to and shag the neighbours wife post haste, so as to prove god exists to others...

edit on 14-6-2012 by mainidh because: (no reason given)

If i didn't care about the others feelings why the internal struggle.

How is it that you justified your response?

You read my post and realized that i knew my justification was wrong and that God showed me how to escape from my own justification. I shared this with everyone as an example of how we justify our actions and how to cut those justifications off before they take root.

Have you ever done anything that you knew was wrong? Did you find a way to justify your wrong? Do you still do things that you once believed were wrong but have now justified as acceptable? Do you think somehow my wrong is worse than your wrong which gives you a right to pass judgment on me?

Was your response out of love? Was it an attempt to help me in some way?

Again I ask you how did you justify your response?

reply to post by Wonders


The fear of God is only the beginning of wisdom. If you were without sin you would not fear God. But we have all fallen short and therefore we all fear God. We don't believe that we are worthy to be in the presence of God. And we are right we are not worthy. But God came to Moses, if God came to Moses does this not prove that God felt that Moses was worthy? But Moses feared God and wore a veil.

It is accepting that we are sinners that brings us to repentance but it is Jesus who taught us that we are forgiven. If we turn to God out of fear and repent for our actions he will forgive you. The forgiven man can accept that God finds him worthy. When i accept forgiveness he will enter my heart so that I may know that God is with me. I came to the father out of fear but the son came to teach me how to love God.

God has lifted the veil of fear and replaces it with the promise of eternal life.

I still fear God, because I love him. Or rather because he loves me for without him I could not know love.

Well, lets see, you sinned by flirting with married woman and there was lust in your mind. Jesus says you got to cut something off, maybe several things to elimate the bad seed.

Thus, since it all started in the mind and you have to cut that out, where does this leave the discussion?

Then again, it may have sprung from three other parts, and to live up to god's will you have to cut that out also.

Let us know which way you proved god to exist.


Then, we have to consider if the married woman had provocative dress and was all about temptation for others, and if there are bad seeds to deal with for her also.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I have read Lee Strobel's one already about 18 months ago and thought it was very good but from the review comments on Amazon I have decided to start reading Gary R. Habermas's one now as it is seen as an even stronger case. Whatever thread I do on it will prob combine elements of both books although I expect to find a lot of cross-over of argument.

I am wondering to if the 2009 Habermas book, 'Did the Resurrection Happen?: A Conversation with Gary Habermas and Antony Flew' is worthwhile as well. The book is about half the size only and covers the atheist perspective as well. Just wondering if it would lead to a stronger argument or if all the info I would need is in Habermas's 2004 book anyway.

edit on 14-6-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)

Well Strobel interviews Dr. Habermas for his book, but the good Dr's book will be better of course, he is arguably the greatest resurrection apologist on Earth. Fascinating to listen to. And the late Dr. Flew wasn't an atheist when he died, he renounced his atheism. So that book wasnt contrasting with an atheist's view.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by Wonders

 

The fear of God is only the beginning of wisdom. If you were without sin you would not fear God. But we have all fallen short and therefore we all fear God. We don't believe that we are worthy to be in the presence of God. And we are right we are not worthy. But God came to Moses, if God came to Moses does this not prove that God felt that Moses was worthy? But Moses feared God and wore a veil.

It is accepting that we are sinners that brings us to repentance but it is Jesus who taught us that we are forgiven. If we turn to God out of fear and repent for our actions he will forgive you. The forgiven man can accept that God finds him worthy. When i accept forgiveness he will enter my heart so that I may know that God is with me. I came to the father out of fear but the son came to teach me how to love God.

God has lifted the veil of fear and replaces it with the promise of eternal life.

I still fear God, because I love him. Or rather because he loves me for without him I could not know love.

Proverbs 10:20 20 The tongue of the righteous is as choice silver, The heart of the wicked is worth little.
Matthew 10:11 "Whenever you enter a city or village, search for a worthy person and stay in his home until you leave town.
Matthew 5:7 God blesses those who are merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Matthew 6:15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Deuteronomy 4:10 Never forget the day when you stood before the LORD your God at Mount Sinai, where he told me, 'Summon the people before me, and I will personally instruct them. Then they will learn to fear me as long as they live, and they will teach their children to fear me also.'
Deuteronomy 10:12 And now, O Israel, what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul,

Ecclesiastes 12:13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.

Luke 21:36 Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Few are narrow minded enough to enter.
"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. Matthew 7:13
Luke 13:24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.
Isaiah 35:8 And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness. The unclean will not journey on it; it will be for those who walk in that Way; wicked fools will not go about on it.

It seems to me that many people's only consolation is that they truly believe that "we" are incapable of sinning no more.

Why do you people Fear your God?

Are you afraid he will condem you for your actions, or lack there of?

Why don't you try to fix that problem instead of letting your fear hold you back!!

I DO NOT fear my God... For i know he is merciful to those who show mercy....

I know he is forgiving to those who forgive...

I would fear the God of the bible... IF he was the true God... but he is nothing but an imposter...

What is the first commandment Jesus gave?

Did he tell you to fear God? OR.... love him?

Here is your only defence as far as fearing God...

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Just so you Christians don't throw that at me... i'll post it for you...

Fear does nothing but hold you back...

reply to post by Akragon


Annanias and Saphira? Lol. Besides, we fear being corrected by Father, we don't fear Hellfire. It's really easy to stay on Father's good graces my friend, you don't have anything to fear.

You felt guilt, and the reason why is because you were raised in a society that believes in monogamy. If you were raised in a polygamous society, you would have felt no guilt about that. Has nothing to do with god.

You felt guilt, and the reason why is because you were raised in a society that believes in monogamy. If you were raised in a polygamous society, you would have felt no guilt about that. Has nothing to do with god.