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Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Under socialism, yes, communism, no. Corporations cannot survive in a purely communist economy as they'd be heavily taxed and their workers, their CEO's, will not be able to earn as much as they typically are now.
A cooperative ("coop"), co-operative ("co-op"), or coöperative ("coöp") is an autonomous association of persons who voluntarily cooperate for their mutual social, economic, and cultural benefit.[1] Cooperatives include non-profit community organizations and businesses that are owned and managed by the people who use its services (a consumer cooperative) and/or by the people who work there (a worker cooperative).
Various aspects regarding cooperative enterprise are the focus of study in the field of cooperative economics.
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian
What is socialism? Well to [snipped] socialism is any form of wealth distribution. Fact is, there has never been a country in mordern time that has operated without some form of socialism in place. Never.
Originally posted by daskakik
Because you say so right? OK.
Originally posted by daskakik
Even more free markets? You're reaching. The state of a market being more or less free is particular to that market and not indicative of any other markets.
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Really?... and pray tell me what are cooperative enterprises under communism?...
"social security" and other social programs are "socialist because of the word "social"... Or so it seems...
But in reality "social security" the person working puts aside a certain amount of what he earns, through the government.
Bigotry is the state of mind of a "bigot", a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one who exhibits intolerance or animosity toward members of a group.
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
No it's not the same thing. The objective for business/corporations is to maximize the profits of their shareholders. There are very very few corporations out there that will sacrifice this objective for the greater good of society, and there are very very few corporations that would tolerate government forcing them to distribute their profits. Corporations simply cannot survive in pure communist economic conditions.
A cooperative ("coop"), co-operative ("co-op"), or coöperative ("coöp") is an autonomous association of persons who voluntarily cooperate for their mutual social, economic, and cultural benefit.[1] Cooperatives include non-profit community organizations and businesses that are owned and managed by the people who use its services (a consumer cooperative) and/or by the people who work there (a worker cooperative).
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Yep, and socialized healthcare like medicare and medicaid involves your hard earned money being taxed towards paying for the healthcare of others, those who formally paid taxes and worked. Your taxes go into infrastructure, hospitals, police. Social security is compulsory, as are all those other programmes.
You can't pick and choose or make exceptions on what socialist programmes you accept and which ones you don't. Either you oppose socialism as a system or you don't. Make up your mind.
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
i don't remember in the definition of cooperative anything about "the greater good of society"...
You see, it is YOU who are trying to twist the meaning fo these words...
WRONG... You are confusing NATIONALIZED HEALTHCARE with regular healthcare...
socialized medicine a system of medical care controlled by the government.
Originally posted by benevolent tyrant
hmmmmmmm...... I believe that I could simply remove Hitler's name from your -- quoted -- statement, replace it with Stalin's (or Kruschev's) and I would still be making a valid historic statement.
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Yes, and to you this automatically means communism, but to any rational thinking person, the two aren't automatically one in the same. Not everybody works by your rules and your own personal definitions.
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
I'll say this again, the goal of corporations is to maximize profit, there are very few corporations out there that will survive through a pure communist economic system because their ability in making profit will be restricted, and any profit they do make will be significantly taxed. The current corporations in the United States thrive on the basis that they get a significant amount of tax cuts, something purely communist governments don't do, and they thrive through low regulated economic systems.
World's Highest Corporate Tax Rate Hurts U.S. Economically
Joseph Mason is the Moyse/LBA Chair of Banking at the Ourso School of Business at Louisiana State University and a senior fellow at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania.
United States-based companies and hardworking Americans face a steadily growing problem, one oddly self-imposed by Uncle Sam. Our current tax system puts businesses and workers at a competitive disadvantage in the global market and discourages companies from investing in operations here at home.
On Sunday, April 1, Japan lowered its corporate tax rate, leaving the United States with the highest effective rate among developed countries: 39.2 percent.
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Corporations cannot survive in communist systems. Corporations can exist but only if they are heavily owned and controlled by the government in these communist systems. But by then they cease being private corporations.
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
It doesn't matter, both are socialist in nature. It doesn't matter if we're talking about medicare or a single payer healthcare system like they have in Canada, they are both socialist in nature, they both require tax payer funds, on both sides you tax dollars are being used to treat another unhealthy person:
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by ColCurious
So far the ONLY people who do not agree with me are LEFTWINGERS, I wonder why...
Anyway, how about you choose ONE single thing I said and PROVE WITH EVIDENCE, not with claims from another leftwinger, that what I stated is wrong...
PLEASE GO AHEAD...
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Yes, and to you this automatically means communism, but to any rational thinking person, the two aren't automatically one in the same. Not everybody works by your rules and your own personal definitions.
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
I'll say this again, the goal of corporations is to maximize profit, there are very few corporations out there that will survive through a pure communist economic system because their ability in making profit will be restricted, and any profit they do make will be significantly taxed.
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
The current corporations in the United States thrive on the basis that they get a significant amount of tax cuts, something purely communist governments don't do, and they thrive through low regulated economic systems. Corporations cannot survive in communist systems. Corporations can exist but only if they are heavily owned and controlled by the government in these communist systems. But by then they cease being private corporations.
Originally posted by daskakik
I'm not a leftwinger and I disagree with you.
Originally posted by daskakik
Can't be done because you dismiss whatever facts you are presented with.
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Really? and where are you exactly in the political spectrum?
I would also love to hear how someone who has been in the site since 2010 has only responded to my posts in this thread...
Oh, so you CAN'T... Rest my case...
Originally posted by daskakik
I'm not on it. I've told you before, I'm apolitical.
Originally posted by daskakik
Because I'm denying ignorance.
Originally posted by daskakik
Of course not, but that is because you are so absorbed by your own opinion that you don't listen to reason and not because you're right.
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
...
So again, either you oppose socialism or you don't you can't pick and choose. If you support partial socialism, that's fine, but then don't rally against socialism as a system, because this would make you a hypocrite.
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Really? and why is an "apolitical" person discussing politics?... humm... Oh and "to deny ignorance" is not a real answer... it is just an excuse that "sounds good" because you have no answer...
RIIIGHT by not presenting any facts and just making CLAIMS?.... I see...
AGAIN, PROOF...stop BS and PRESENT PROOF...
For today's generation, Hitler is the most hated man in history, and his regime the archetype of political evil. This view does not extend to his economic policies, however. Far from it. They are embraced by governments all around the world. The Glenview State Bank of Chicago, for example, recently praised Hitler's economics in its monthly newsletter. In doing so, the bank discovered the hazards of praising Keynesian policies in the wrong context.
The issue of the newsletter (July 2003) is not online, but the content can be discerned via the letter of protest from the Anti-Defamation League. "Regardless of the economic arguments" the letter said, "Hitler's economic policies cannot be divorced from his great policies of virulent anti-Semitism, racism and genocide…. Analyzing his actions through any other lens severely misses the point."
The same could be said about all forms of central planning. It is wrong to attempt to examine the economic policies of any leviathan state apart from the political violence that characterizes all central planning, whether in Germany, the Soviet Union, or the United States. The controversy highlights the ways in which the connection between violence and central planning is still not understood, not even by the ADL. The tendency of economists to admire Hitler's economic program is a case in point.
In the 1930s, Hitler was widely viewed as just another protectionist central planner who recognized the supposed failure of the free market and the need for nationally guided economic development. Proto-Keynesian socialist economist Joan Robinson wrote that "Hitler found a cure against unemployment before Keynes was finished explaining it."
What were those economic policies? He suspended the gold standard, embarked on huge public works programs like Autobahns, protected industry from foreign competition, expanded credit, instituted jobs programs, bullied the private sector on prices and production decisions, vastly expanded the military, enforced capital controls, instituted family planning, penalized smoking, brought about national healthcare and unemployment insurance, imposed education standards, and eventually ran huge deficits. The Nazi interventionist program was essential to the regime's rejection of the market economy and its embrace of socialism in one country.
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
When inalienable rights are severely restricted or banned "for the common good" YES IT IS SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM...
I have actually proved "they are not my definitions"...
Under communism/socialism "the mutual benefit" is the benefit of the STATE... although I know leftwingers who have never lived under a true socialist/communist system claim "in socialism/communism" everything is done for the good of the people"... This is NOT SO...
As for Medicare/Medicaid and Veteran's insurance, THEY SUCK....
Originally posted by daskakik
I can discuss all kinds of things that I don't have any real attachment to. It actually allows me to be more objective.
Originally posted by daskakik
Denying ignorance is what ATS is about. How could that not be a good answer?
Originally posted by daskakik
I did and have in other threads and you dismiss them every time. I have seen others do the same with the same results. Others have posted in this thread that they have noticed the same, but of course we must all be wrong because you say so.
Originally posted by daskakik
Well how about the fact that the between the mid 40's and the early 70's, which you claim is 30-60 years after the socialist agenda took foothold in America, the nation saw the greatest growth in the middle class. Doesn't seem very oppressive to me.
Originally posted by daskakik
I'm sure you will find and post all kinds of facts about regulations brought into effect during that time. That would just prove that a certain amount of regulation has its up side, which would go against your assertion that things were better during the robber baron days, aka free markets.
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
An "apolitical" person cares not for politics, so why would a non-political person discuss politics?... If you are discussing politics I'TS BECAUSE YOU CARE... hence you are not "apolitical"...
It is the motto of the website, but giving that statement as "proof" is not an answer... You need to learn to make a concise and intelligent answer to an argument, and saying "let's deny ignorance" without pointing out which one of my arguments is wrong and PRESENTING PROOF of why it is wrong is simply being dishonest
What facts did you present?... I only saw YOUR OPINION... Opinions are NOT FACTS...
Another fact is that during those times "CORPORATIONS" grew, and became monopolies which gave more jobs to people. So are you pro "large corporations" now?...
I could post a lot more facts, such as Americans between those times were against socialism, and leftwing ideologies, except for the 70s, and it took that long for Americans to slowly accept leftwing ideas, and because of this other policies were implemented which balanced for a time the diservice that Woodrow Wilson and Progressive Democrats did to this country.