The Socialist Mask of Marxism

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


I'm sorry but you can't just ascribe everything Evil Extreme Authoritarian to the Left. People on the Right are going to have to come to grips with Fascism being on the Right because it is the end game of Capitalism, own it so that you know better in the future. I don't mean for that to sound condescending but I don't know how else to put it at this point. I don't personally support Capitalism per se but that doesn't mean it has to be this awful thing that it is becoming.

Moderate Capitalism though I find flaws in it can be okay, it's just important to not let it turn into a freight train that leads to Fascism. We on the Left have to look at and own Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Soviet Socialism, Statist Communism etc... and you guys on the Right have to look at and own Mussolini, Hitler, Nationalism, Reactionism, Fascism etc...

Obama is becoming increasingly Fascist, look at his latest with the TPP, to borrow phrasing from an earlier post, that is a Capitalist wet dream, except that it sells out the entire American public and is really nothing short of Fascism.

And I have to own the fact that I voted for him, and I will now regret that for the rest of my life... not because he's a Socialist but because he isn't even close to one.

Originally posted by Kali74
...
Americans seem to understand the horrors of State Communism which is the Socialists demon but seem to be utterly clueless that Fascism is the equal but opposite, Capitalist's demon. No lesson will be learned without acknowledgement of truth and reality.

Excuse me but you keep forgetting the fact that fascism is a leftwing ideology. Hitler was a National SOCIALIST, and so was Mussolini... they both implemented socialist programs, and if you read the programs they implemented they sound exactly like the policies leftwingers today want to implement.

The problem is that to leftwingers MORE state/government control is the answer to everything, which is why socialist dictatorships are formed, because the government gets involved in every aspect of our lives "for the good of the collective, the good of the Earth" or some other excuse.

The fact that leftwingers don't want to accept this, is one of the reasons why the United States, and the whole world are being transformed into another socialist/fascist dictatorship as we write/speak.

Originally posted by Kali74

Moderate Capitalism though I find flaws in it can be okay, it's just important to not let it turn into a freight train that leads to Fascism. We on the Left have to look at and own Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Soviet Socialism, Statist Communism etc... and you guys on the Right have to look at and own Mussolini, Hitler, Nationalism, Reactionism, Fascism etc...
...

Again, you fail to understand that FASCISM came from NATIONAL SOCIALISM of both Hitler and Mussolini...

I have given you the programs they implemented, and even speeches they have made which shows both Hitler and Mussolini were SOCIALISTS...

The fact that you, and other leftwingers don't want to admit this is the reason why the wole world is being transformed into another socialist/fascist dictatorship...

You also fail to understand that "FREE MARKET/CAPITALISM" are not corpocratism... All major corporations are monopolies, which are anti-thesis to a "FREE MARKET/CAPITALISM".

Under SOCIALISM corporations can exist. In fact in communism corporations are called "cooperative enterprises".

Large corporations love to "consolidate power and become the big dogs". Consolidation of power/centralization are virtues of socialism, not of "A FREE MARKET/CAPITALISM"...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

You're wrong. Mussolini and Fascism were anti-socialist. I think we've gone over this before.

Funny that a couple post up your saying you want everybody to be free, but that doesn't seem to apply to using definitions other than yours.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Oh wake up. I can put on a duck costume and run around for the rest of my life in it, does it make me duck? No. Mussolini and Hitler suited up as Socialists, what makes them not Socialists is what they did once in power...everything they did was anti-socialist. Smashing Unions, rounding up immigrants into labor camps, rounding up dissidents into labor camps, starting wars, subjugating women. I can understand you being paranoid considering you lived under Statist Communism and I can't imagine (hopefully I never will) what you went through because of it. But, that is not an excuse to not use the brain in your head to apply some rationality. Deny Ignorance.

And FYI Co-ops are owned by the people, not corporations. Corporatism is really just another word for Fascism and it is exactly what happens when Capitalism is let off it's leash.

Originally posted by daskakik

You're wrong. Mussolini and Fascism were anti-socialist. I think we've gone over this before.

Funny that a couple post up your saying you want everybody to be free, but that doesn't seem to apply to using definitions other than yours.

LOL, just because I am posting facts doesn't mean "i want to force those facts". in fact, it is you, "leftwingers" who want to force YOUR facts, to rewrite history...

You seem to forget something that I have proven MANY times... Socialists tend to go against each other, and even murder each other if they have power...

For example, and these are FACTS, again, Stalin wanted NATIONAL COMMUNISM in the U.S.S.R., and Lenin and Trosky wanted INTERNATIONAL COMMUNISM. Because of this they did not see eye to eye, and Lenin even ordered the murder of Trosky, and some other communists who had power. Some historians believe that it was also Stalin who ordered the poisoning of Lenin.

I have even given the letter from Trosky in which he relates how Stalin ordered his death...

Was Stalin any less communist because he ordered the death of Trosky and other communists?...

Socialists in general don't like other branches of socialism, including communism. Which is why so many branches exist. Because of this socialists tend to turn on each other when they have no common enemy.

Your argument that Mussolini was not socialist because he was against other forms of socialism is not valid... Stalin didn't want other forms of communism either, and neither did castro, Mao, and every other socialist/communist.

BTW, another fact you may not know is that EVERY communist is a socialist, but not every socialist is a communist...

reply to post by Kali74

Actually, Mussolini didn't put any any costume on. The Doctrine of Fascism states:

That is to say, it rejects the idea of a doctrine suited to all times and to all people. Granted that the XIXth century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the XXth century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the " right ", a Fascist century.

He talks against socialism, liberalism, democracy and communism.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

So when you do it it is posting facts but when we do it it is force?

Just because you don't want to accept the facts doesn't stop them from being true.

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Oh wake up. I can put on a duck costume and run around for the rest of my life in it, does it make me duck? No. Mussolini and Hitler suited up as Socialists, what makes them not Socialists is what they did once in power...everything they did was anti-socialist. Smashing Unions, rounding up immigrants into labor camps, rounding up dissidents into labor camps, starting wars, subjugating women.
...

LOL... you are telling me to wake up?...

I already posted the socialist programs THEY IMPLEMENTED...

Do I really need to repeat myself?...

AGAIN...

NATIONAL SOCIALISM/FASCISM AND THE PROGRAMS MUSSOLINI IMPLEMENTED...

Contents of the Fascist Manifesto

The manifesto (published in "Il Popolo d'Italia" on June 6, 1919) is divided into four sections, describing Fascist objectives in political, social, military and financial fields.[2]

Politically, the manifesto calls for:
Universal suffrage with a lowered voting age to 18 years, and voting and electoral office eligibility for all age 25 and more, including women;
Proportional representation on a regional basis;
Voting for women (which was opposed by most other European nations);
Representation at government level of newly created national councils by economic sector;
The abolition of the Italian Senate (at the time, the senate, as the upper house of parliament, was by process elected by the wealthier citizens, but were in reality direct appointments by the king. It has been described as a sort of extended council of the crown);
The formation of a national council of experts for labor, for industry, for transportation, for the public health, for communications, etc. Selections to be made of professionals or of tradesmen with legislative powers, and elected directly to a general commission with ministerial powers (this concept was rooted in corporatist ideology and derived in part from Catholic social doctrine).

In labour and social policy, the manifesto calls for:
The quick enactment of a law of the state that sanctions an eight-hour workday for all workers;
A minimum wage;
The participation of workers' representatives in the functions of industry commissions;
To show the same confidence in the labor unions (that prove to be technically and morally worthy) as is given to industry executives or public servants;
Reorganisation of the railways and the transport sector;
Revision of the draft law on invalidity insurance;
Reduction of the retirement age from 65 to 55.

In military affairs, the manifesto advocates:
Creation of a short-service national militia with specifically defensive responsibilities;
Armaments factories are to be nationalised;
A peaceful but competitive foreign policy.

In finance, the manifesto advocates:
A strong progressive tax on capital (envisaging a “partial expropriation” of concentrated wealth);
The seizure of all the possessions of the religious congregations and the abolition of all the bishoprics, which constitute an enormous liability on the Nation and on the privileges of the poor;
Revision of all contracts for military provisions;
The revision of all military contracts and the seizure of 85 percent of the profits therein.

The manifesto thus combined elements of contemporary democratic and progressive thought (franchise reform, labour reform, limited nationalisation, taxes on wealth and war profits) with corporatist emphasis on class collaboration (the idea of social classes existing side by side and collaborating for the sake of national interests; the opposite of the Marxist notion of class struggle).

en.wikipedia.org...

Can you read or you just want to become blind to the FACTS you don't want to accept?...

BTW, socialists can be warmongers in case you dind't know...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


I have been waiting to post this quote for some time and your thread is the perfect place...this is right from one of the horse's mouths circa 1940's....on how to convert America and American's to good little socialists....


“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But under the
name of Liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist
program until one day America will be a socialist nation without knowing
how it happened.” Norman Thomas, Socialist Party presidential candidate circa 1940

Originally posted by daskakik
So when you do it it is posting facts but when we do it it is force?

Just because you don't want to accept the facts doesn't stop them from being true.

You are the ones posting YOUR OPINION without ANY PROOF...

I posted EVIDENCE, something which you lack in your arguments...

Originally posted by timetothink

I have been waiting to post this quote for some time and your thread is the perfect place...this is right from one of the horse's mouths circa 1940's....on how to convert America and American's to good little socialists....


“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But under the
name of Liberalism, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist
program until one day America will be a socialist nation without knowing
how it happened.” Norman Thomas, Socialist Party presidential candidate circa 1940

Many Americans have been brainwashed over decades to accept socialist ideas.

To this day most Americans call the U.S. a democracy, when it is not a democracy. Democracy is "mob rule, where the 51% can take away the rights of the other 49%... That is not what the Republic of the United States is, or was supposed to be...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
You are the ones posting YOUR OPINION without ANY PROOF...

I posted EVIDENCE, something which you lack in your arguments...

I did post proof. That list of things that you posted are not exclusive to the left.

You may not want to accept it but there is a lot of space between the center and the extreme right of free markets.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Exactly....I have been shocked lately by the amount of people that don't even think the states have individual rights...I weep for my country.

Originally posted by daskakik

I did post proof. That list of things that you posted are not exclusive to the left.

Oh yes they are...

Again, leftwingers in general think that "more government/state control is good"... Which leds to the government wanting to control every aspect of our lives...

In the United States, REAL Republicanism is small government, more individual freedom, and such individual freedoms are guaranteed to EVERYONE, not just the majority. FREE MARKETS/CAPITALISM with the ability of every person to own private property including land, house, and whatever you can procure/make with honesty with your two hands.

For example, Ron Paul is a real representative of what a Republican is like. There might be somethings that you can disagree with him and still be a true Republican, but in general he is the real deal in Republicanism.

Being a Republican doesn't mean being giving corporations the broad powers they have.

The founding fathers of the Republic of the United States decided that there is one form of government that is best for Americans.

U.S. Constitution - Article 4 Section 4


Article 4 - The States
Section 4 - Republican Government



The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

www.usconstitution.net...

Originally posted by daskakik
You may not want to accept it but there is a lot of space between the center and the extreme right of free markets.

What you call the "extreme right" has nothing to do with "FREE MARKETS/CAPITALISM"...

Extreme right in capitalism/free markets would mean even more free markets. To the left of FREE MARKETS/CAPITALISM is regulation of the markets/monopoly over the markets/corporations/socialism.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Under SOCIALISM corporations can exist. In fact in communism corporations are called "cooperative enterprises".

Under socialism, yes, communism, no. Corporations cannot survive in a purely communist economy as they'd be heavily taxed and their workers, their CEO's, will not be able to earn as much as they typically are now.

What is socialism? Well to rightwing nutjobs socialism is any form of wealth distribution. Fact is, there has never been a country in mordern time that has operated without some form of socialism in place. Never.

Originally posted by daskakik
reply to post by Kali74

 

Actually, Mussolini didn't put any any costume on. The Doctrine of Fascism states:

That is to say, it rejects the idea of a doctrine suited to all times and to all people. Granted that the XIXth century was the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy, this does not mean that the XXth century must also be the century of socialism, liberalism, democracy. Political doctrines pass; nations remain. We are free to believe that this is the century of authority, a century tending to the " right ", a Fascist century.

He talks against socialism, liberalism, democracy and communism.

He talks against OTHER forms of socialism, but fascism is a branch of socialism...

Mussolini was ALL OF HIS LIFE a socialist... He only knew socialism, and he even wrote this on his journal...

He just had this idea to implement some changes to what he knew about socialism and formed fascism.

reply to post by Tadeusz

Slight nitpick: allow me to pull up a diagram of the intersection between the Monsanto corporation and the US government.


This indeed falls under "the means of production... owned and controlled by the state" and "centralization of power" and "infrastructure and the means of production is 'nationalized'". You must have accidentally transposed your definitions of "socialism" and "capitalism".

Monsanto \ Government looks like the international Marxist \ Corporatist Cartel at work.

Monsanto is one of those international corporations owned by the same institutional stockholders cartel.

MON Top Institutional Holders

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Oh yes they are...

Because you say so right? OK.

Extreme right in capitalism/free markets would mean even more free markets. To the left of FREE MARKETS/CAPITALISM is regulation of the markets/monopoly over the markets/corporations/socialism.

All you have is a false dilemma fallacy.

Even more free markets? You're reaching. The state of a market being more or less free is particular to that market and not indicative of any other markets.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
He talks against OTHER forms of socialism, but fascism is a branch of socialism...

He just had this idea to implement some changes to what he knew about socialism and formed fascism.

No he doesn't and if you had read the doctrine you would see that he disliked the whole idea behind it and even said that by 1919 it was all but dead.

So he grew up and change his outlook on life. It's normal.

So if you add a couple of things to socialism it remains socialism but if you add a couple of things to capitalism it ceases to be and is now also socialism? That false dilemma fallacy is showing again.