Unbelieving preachers get help to 'come out' as open atheists

reply to post by Noncompatible


The quote was abbreviated, but I didn't cherry-pick. I responded to what you said. If you had given me inclusive terms, then I would have had nothing to respond to like I did. But you gave me the names of individual religions, cults, and groups, and then proceeded, with sarcasm, to give the generalized term "Rational," implying that the groups listed before fall under that broader term. That's all I was responding to.

And then I made it clear that it was obviously not what you meant. It's what you said, but I knew it wasn't what you meant. But should that stop me from replying to what you said?

ETA: And, speaking of sarcasm, I trust you'll also forgive me if I don't refer to myself and people like me as "Deluded."

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So what was God supposed to do when the Pharaoh ordered the death of every firstborn of the Hebrews? Nod and wink and let that one slide? He'd already said basically to leave revenge to Him. Or are dead Hebrew babies okay and dead Egyptian babies a tragedy?

None of it is okay. If you just happened to be born at that time, and were the firstborn (and not even knowing what goes on in palaces), god would have killed you. Wouldn't have matter who you were, what you believed, or what you did or didn't do. Your purpose on earth would have been to be murdered by god. Is this really a god you want to worship???

reply to post by jiggerj


The slaughter of the firstborn in Egypt was the tenth plague. It was God's absolute last resort in dealing with Pharaoh. And, it was not unprovoked in kind. The Law, which God would establish through Moses a little later, declared that punishment not exceed the crime. While God brought the deaths of the firstborn in Egypt, Pharaoh had earlier ordered the drowning of every male child born to the Israelites. God's punishment was not only thoroughly provoked and avoidable, but it was also less severe than the order given by Pharaoh that provoked it. Even in his judgment, God showed mercy.

reply to post by CLPrime


Never mistake mild derision as sarcasm. If I wished to be sarcastic, I would be.

Refer to yourself and others how you will. Always remember there have been as many gods as cultures and they all have one thing in common:

None of them show up and eventually they are consigned to the waste bin of history.

Yours shows no evidence of being different, it has already shattered into so many factions that the term christian has little meaning any longer as the deity at its center is not consistent across them.

reply to post by smyleegrl

the fact is, I don't know if there's a God or not

Neither do most atheists. Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive labels, they might both apply to you.

While I never went through any scholarly theological study I did, in my late teens, decide to seek God for myself and set aside being spoon-fed by Pastors and parents. I read the Bible in its entirety on my own, attempting to discern its meaning and hoping God would leap out of the pages. Few things can destroy a Christian's faith faster than reading and thinking about the Bible independently because the more you think about it the less sense it makes.

I think many Christians would be surprised by the number of Priests and Pastors who are actually closeted non-believers. For many of them (the pastors) it must feel horrible, to go out there and knowingly preach things they know are either unsubstantiated or outright lies and yet feel afraid of giving up a steady job with steady pay and loving friends. Some even lose their families from coming out atheist.

Odd. I started out as a die hard Christ hating atheist and was raised in an atheist family. Later I started getting into the occult and began to see various demonic manifestations. I began at that time to become very interested in prophecy. Biblical prophecy is amazing! So many fulfillments spanning thousands of years.

Some fulfilled predictions:
The exact coming of Christ, the very day he showed up in Jerusalem, predicted correctly in Dan. 9:26.

The rebirth of Israel a 2nd time! (What nation has ever been destroyed and recovered twice?)
Isaiah 11, describes this as well as the ministry of Jesus and the millennial kingdom long before any of this happened.

There is so much more!
www.reasons.org...

On top of that, archeologists have now learned to trust the Bible above all other ancient texts, since it's been proven accurate over and over. Just one example was the existence of the Hittites. They were claimed to be a fiction of the Bible until they were discovered not that long ago.

So yeah, I believe in Jesus now, and am confident that the Bible is the word of God. It sounds like your schooling was not very good.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So what was God supposed to do when the Pharaoh ordered the death of every firstborn of the Hebrews? Nod and wink and let that one slide? He'd already said basically to leave revenge to Him. Or are dead Hebrew babies okay and dead Egyptian babies a tragedy?

None of it is okay. If you just happened to be born at that time, and were the firstborn (and not even knowing what goes on in palaces), god would have killed you. Wouldn't have matter who you were, what you believed, or what you did or didn't do. Your purpose on earth would have been to be murdered by god. Is this really a god you want to worship???

That's not true, it did matter what you did. The people who put lamb's blood on their door were spared, you're wrong. And i want to worship a God that is just, yes. That does to others what they do to the Jews. Or in other words KEEPS HIS WORD to a "T". A God that does exactly what He says He will do. If I wanted a capricious god who did whatever he felt like at the momment i'd probably by a Muslim.

reply to post by Noncompatible


You have quite a loose definition of derision.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The slaughter of the firstborn in Egypt was the tenth plague. It was God's absolute last resort in dealing with Pharaoh. And, it was not unprovoked in kind. The Law, which God would establish through Moses a little later, declared that punishment not exceed the crime. While God brought the deaths of the firstborn in Egypt, Pharaoh had earlier ordered the drowning of every male child born to the Israelites. God's punishment was not only thoroughly provoked and avoidable, but it was also less severe than the order given by Pharaoh that provoked it. Even in his judgment, God showed mercy.

Wow! This is one of the things that terrifies me about religion. You are actually brainwashed into believing a god is merciful by murdering people. You do realize that god is GOD!? He could've infected the Pharaoh with a horrible disease to show him who was boss (and still not kill him). He could've spoken to pharaoh in a dream. Murder and mercy are two things that only an insane person would connect.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So what was God supposed to do when the Pharaoh ordered the death of every firstborn of the Hebrews? Nod and wink and let that one slide? He'd already said basically to leave revenge to Him. Or are dead Hebrew babies okay and dead Egyptian babies a tragedy?

None of it is okay. If you just happened to be born at that time, and were the firstborn (and not even knowing what goes on in palaces), god would have killed you. Wouldn't have matter who you were, what you believed, or what you did or didn't do. Your purpose on earth would have been to be murdered by god. Is this really a god you want to worship???

That's not true, it did matter what you did. The people who put lamb's blood on their door were spared, you're wrong. And i want to worship a God that is just, yes. That does to others what they do to the Jews. Or in other words KEEPS HIS WORD to a "T". A God that does exactly what He says He will do. If I wanted a capricious god who did whatever he felt like at the momment i'd probably by a Muslim.

edit on 15-6-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

The Jews put the blood on the door. Not the Egyptians.

If you believe and trust in a god that murders for ANY reason... I dunno. Just stop it!

reply to post by TheFogHorn


It's not your place to convict of sin, so your comment is moot in the context of what I said, which to remind you was as follows:

No true Christian is homophobic

And that is true. So take your thinly-disguised self-righteousness and go pray about it.

reply to post by jiggerj

The plagues as they appear in the Bible are:

Water, which turned to blood and killed all fish and other aquatic life (Exodus 7:14–25)
Frogs (Exodus 8:1–8:15) Lice (Exodus 8:16–19)
Flies or wild animals (Exodus 8:20–30)
Disease on livestock (Exodus 9:1–7)
Unhealable boils (Exodus 9:8–12)
Hail and thunder (Exodus 9:13–35)
Locusts (Exodus 10:1–20)
Darkness (Exodus 10:21–29)
Death of the first-born of all Egyptian humans and animals.

en.wikipedia.org...

You don't understand. Pharaoh may have had the final say as to whether or not the Israelites could leave Egypt, but God was battling more than just him. The Egyptians were worshiping other gods and using magick given to them by the powers of their gods (fallen angels). God used these plagues to show ALL of Egypt that His powers were greater than those of the gods (fallen angels) who they were worshiping to prove that He was the one true God above all fallen gods. It was a last ditch effort to not only convince Pharaoh, but all of the people the error of what they were doing.

Good on this fella, best unbelieving greedy people like him get out of the church.
I bet there are heaps like him bringing disrepute and saying stuff that is wrong all around the church. False teaches false teachings simply because they have a job and an income. Sad reflection on atheism at the very least.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So what was God supposed to do when the Pharaoh ordered the death of every firstborn of the Hebrews? Nod and wink and let that one slide? He'd already said basically to leave revenge to Him. Or are dead Hebrew babies okay and dead Egyptian babies a tragedy?

None of it is okay. If you just happened to be born at that time, and were the firstborn (and not even knowing what goes on in palaces), god would have killed you. Wouldn't have matter who you were, what you believed, or what you did or didn't do. Your purpose on earth would have been to be murdered by god. Is this really a god you want to worship???

That's not true, it did matter what you did. The people who put lamb's blood on their door were spared, you're wrong. And i want to worship a God that is just, yes. That does to others what they do to the Jews. Or in other words KEEPS HIS WORD to a "T". A God that does exactly what He says He will do. If I wanted a capricious god who did whatever he felt like at the momment i'd probably by a Muslim.

edit on 15-6-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

The Jews put the blood on the door. Not the Egyptians.

If you believe and trust in a god that murders for ANY reason... I dunno. Just stop it!

Murders? Sorry mate but thats not murder, thats judgement for sin. Death is the wages of sin and in Gods world He hands down the verdict.
Punishment for sin is death.
Thats the law.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The slaughter of the firstborn in Egypt was the tenth plague. It was God's absolute last resort in dealing with Pharaoh. And, it was not unprovoked in kind. The Law, which God would establish through Moses a little later, declared that punishment not exceed the crime. While God brought the deaths of the firstborn in Egypt, Pharaoh had earlier ordered the drowning of every male child born to the Israelites. God's punishment was not only thoroughly provoked and avoidable, but it was also less severe than the order given by Pharaoh that provoked it. Even in his judgment, God showed mercy.

Wow! This is one of the things that terrifies me about religion. You do realize that god is GOD!? He could've infected the Pharaoh with a horrible disease to show him who was boss (and still not kill him). He could've spoken to pharaoh in a dream. Murder and mercy are two things that only an insane person would connect.

Wow! This is one of the things that terrifies me about people these days, You are actually brainwashed into believing a God is going to let you get away with all your crimes. Only an insane person would believe there is no judgement foe sin.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The plagues as they appear in the Bible are:

Water, which turned to blood and killed all fish and other aquatic life (Exodus 7:14–25)
Frogs (Exodus 8:1–8:15) Lice (Exodus 8:16–19)
Flies or wild animals (Exodus 8:20–30)
Disease on livestock (Exodus 9:1–7)
Unhealable boils (Exodus 9:8–12)
Hail and thunder (Exodus 9:13–35)
Locusts (Exodus 10:1–20)
Darkness (Exodus 10:21–29)
Death of the first-born of all Egyptian humans and animals.

en.wikipedia.org...

You don't understand. Pharaoh may have had the final say as to whether or not the Israelites could leave Egypt, but God was battling more than just him. The Egyptians were worshiping other gods and using magick given to them by the powers of their gods (fallen angels). God used these plagues to show ALL of Egypt that His powers were greater than those of the gods (fallen angels) who they were worshiping to prove that He was the one true God above all fallen gods. It was a last ditch effort to not only convince Pharaoh, but all of the people the error of what they were doing.

edit on 15-6-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

We can also read the Bible as fictional stories filled with symbolism of spiritual concepts instead of literal history. I believe this is the traditional way that Jews study the Bible. Also Jesus taught in parables instead of literally. Something to consider.

Definitely there is a lot about Christianity that seems suspicious to me.

Originally posted by SevenThunders
Odd. I started out as a die hard Christ hating atheist and was raised in an atheist family. Later I started getting into the occult and began to see various demonic manifestations. I began at that time to become very interested in prophecy. Biblical prophecy is amazing! So many fulfillments spanning thousands of years.

Some fulfilled predictions:
The exact coming of Christ, the very day he showed up in Jerusalem, predicted correctly in Dan. 9:26.

The rebirth of Israel a 2nd time! (What nation has ever been destroyed and recovered twice?)
Isaiah 11, describes this as well as the ministry of Jesus and the millennial kingdom long before any of this happened.

There is so much more!
www.reasons.org...

On top of that, archeologists have now learned to trust the Bible above all other ancient texts, since it's been proven accurate over and over. Just one example was the existence of the Hittites. They were claimed to be a fiction of the Bible until they were discovered not that long ago.

So yeah, I believe in Jesus now, and am confident that the Bible is the word of God. It sounds like your schooling was not very good.

I'm glad to hear you are secure in your faith and have found peace. That's wonderful.

Please don't disparage my schooling. I attended a private Christian college on a full academic scholarship, had multiple papers published during this time, and graduated with a 4.0 and top in my major. I'm not trying to brag, just stating this so you'll know my credentials.

The funny thing about going to college: before I left home several of the older folks in my church cautioned me that "too much learning hampers faith.". I found that so odd. How could learning about your religion hinder your faith?

When you spend four years studying comparative religions, biblical philosophy and history, religious history, etc you very quickly come to the point where you are forced to closely examine your own cherished beliefs. That examination can be brutal.

There are countless things I learned that cause me concern with Christianity IN ITS CURRENT FORM. I also grew very tired of the deliberate ignorance so many of my fellow students displayed and vehemently defended. For example, one young man contended that the earth was about 6,000 years old b/c that's the age if you calculate based on Genesis. When we asked him about dinosaur fossils and the like, he replied that God put them there to test our faith. I can't even fathom that argument, it makes no sense.

I don't want to do a point by point thesis about the inconsistencies in the Bible; frankly, it seems rather pointless. I'm not trying to convince or persuade anyone, just expressing my experiences and disillusionment.

I'll end with a quote from Socrates. "The unexamined life is not worth living.". This has become one of my personal hallmarks and I spend a lot of time in personal reflection. I do believe there is...something out there. My perusal in higher science has actually bolstered this belief. But defining that something in human terms...I don't know if that's possible.

Originally posted by Noncompatible

Originally posted by smyleegrl

Originally posted by Noncompatible
reply to post by smyleegrl

 

We are all atheist at the core. Atheism is a rejection of the existence of gods, plural. So unless you accept the veritable horde that mankind has created over time, you are an atheist to someone.

As for "ex"-preacher, he's a grifter looking to create a flock and generate money to spread his "message."

I am not an atheist. I do not know if a god exists, but I am very open to that possibility and I'm actively searching for answers. An atheist, on the other hand, firmly believes there is no god. If anything, atheism requires as much faith as theism.

And I agree with your assessment of the guy. Money.

Actually, just to be pedantic, atheism denies all gods. So do you embrace the possibility of them all them all or just a few or even just one ?
If anything other than the first response then yes you are an atheist to somebody.
Do not fall for the current trend here on ATS that atheism, pure form, is a rejection of a particular god (namely the christian one).
In point of fact for most atheists of my inclination it is not a rejection of anything. You cannot reject something that has no objective evidence of existence.

It requires no faith all all. There is zero evidence for any deity, this does not require faith, it simply requires objectivity.
Show me tangible proof. I will happily acknowledge my mistake and continue on with life.

edit on 14-6-2012 by Noncompatible because: (no reason given)

I would go even further and say that atheism comes about after a 'born again' experience due to a shift in perception. Only when a person has seen outside of the matrix will they understand how all others in it are part of it, atheist or not. That explains why so many claimed atheists who say they hate religion still belief in New Age spirituality....they don't realise it's all the same thing and are unable to let go completely. The attraction to the mental stimuli is too great to give up.....it's a drug.

Once you understand that Yahweh was nothing other than anthropomorshised volcanic activity, your vision will become a lot clearer and you will be free of the whole thing.

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The slaughter of the firstborn in Egypt was the tenth plague. It was God's absolute last resort in dealing with Pharaoh. And, it was not unprovoked in kind. The Law, which God would establish through Moses a little later, declared that punishment not exceed the crime. While God brought the deaths of the firstborn in Egypt, Pharaoh had earlier ordered the drowning of every male child born to the Israelites. God's punishment was not only thoroughly provoked and avoidable, but it was also less severe than the order given by Pharaoh that provoked it. Even in his judgment, God showed mercy.

Wow! This is one of the things that terrifies me about religion. You do realize that god is GOD!? He could've infected the Pharaoh with a horrible disease to show him who was boss (and still not kill him). He could've spoken to pharaoh in a dream. Murder and mercy are two things that only an insane person would connect.

Wow! This is one of the things that terrifies me about people these days, You are actually brainwashed into believing a God is going to let you get away with all your crimes. Only an insane person would believe there is no judgement foe sin.

And you fanatics are so willing to accept and justify a god that snuffs out life no matter the reason.

Mother: God killed my son!
Priest: But, your son didn't observe the Sabbath.
Mother: Well, that's okay then.

Just crazy.

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So what was God supposed to do when the Pharaoh ordered the death of every firstborn of the Hebrews? Nod and wink and let that one slide? He'd already said basically to leave revenge to Him. Or are dead Hebrew babies okay and dead Egyptian babies a tragedy?

None of it is okay. If you just happened to be born at that time, and were the firstborn (and not even knowing what goes on in palaces), god would have killed you. Wouldn't have matter who you were, what you believed, or what you did or didn't do. Your purpose on earth would have been to be murdered by god. Is this really a god you want to worship???

That's not true, it did matter what you did. The people who put lamb's blood on their door were spared, you're wrong. And i want to worship a God that is just, yes. That does to others what they do to the Jews. Or in other words KEEPS HIS WORD to a "T". A God that does exactly what He says He will do. If I wanted a capricious god who did whatever he felt like at the momment i'd probably by a Muslim.

edit on 15-6-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

The Jews put the blood on the door. Not the Egyptians.

If you believe and trust in a god that murders for ANY reason... I dunno. Just stop it!

Murders? Sorry mate but thats not murder, thats judgement for sin. Death is the wages of sin and in Gods world He hands down the verdict.
Punishment for sin is death.
Thats the law.

Just remember what your Jesus said: 'Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone' or something like that. Meaning you're all sinners, and your god can cut any of you down any time.

Be afraid of this god. Be VERY afraid!