Europe is imploding right now in front of you

Over the last few days, I've been reading a ton about how bad it was in the days immediately after World War II throughout Europe. In America, it's a period that gets glossed over between we beat Hitler and we made NATO and beat the Commies, but looking at how badly it went, I can understand why so many of the elites there want to make sure the experiment succeeds.

Europe has survived collapsed economies before, and I think it will do so again. I do think the Euro will end, at least in its current form, but that the price is the continent splitting in two on a north-south axis. France, Germany, and the Low Countries will be one sphere. The Mediterranean will go its own way. And I think that might be good enough. The UK could go either way, alone, or across the Atlantic. I suspect they stay with their continental partners.

We look at maps and tend to imagine continents as these singular entities, but they're not. The routes along the North Sea, Baltic Sea, and the like created one culture. The routes through the Med and the Adriatic, another. Not better or worse, just different, and maybe they'll rediscover that.

It's hard to superimpose history atop a current crisis, but it's also sometimes appropriate. I think the end game will see a stronger Europe, but a smaller one emerge. But we'll see.

Perhaps the fall of rome would correlate to the situation.
the loss of control from a centralise governance,

Originally posted by cassandranova
Over the last few days, I've been reading a ton about how bad it was in the days immediately after World War II throughout Europe. In America, it's a period that gets glossed over between we beat Hitler and we made NATO and beat the Commies, but looking at how badly it went, I can understand why so many of the elites there want to make sure the experiment succeeds.

Europe has survived collapsed economies before, and I think it will do so again. I do think the Euro will end, at least in its current form, but that the price is the continent splitting in two on a north-south axis. France, Germany, and the Low Countries will be one sphere. The Mediterranean will go its own way. And I think that might be good enough. The UK could go either way, alone, or across the Atlantic. I suspect they stay with their continental partners.

We look at maps and tend to imagine continents as these singular entities, but they're not. The routes along the North Sea, Baltic Sea, and the like created one culture. The routes through the Med and the Adriatic, another. Not better or worse, just different, and maybe they'll rediscover that.

It's hard to superimpose history atop a current crisis, but it's also sometimes appropriate. I think the end game will see a stronger Europe, but a smaller one emerge. But we'll see.

Yup! That sums it up nicely.

As a European, I am not really into all of that "end-time"stuff. Guess it's our Dutch Common Sense "nuchterheid" (try pronouncing thát ) that prevents us panicking.

Cool heads will prevail. Allover Europe the rabid Europhiles on the right are losing-out. Euro-skeptics are getting louder & louder. ("skeptic"as in "critical óf-, but not neccesarily against something.)

And NO, Great Britain is NOT "Euro-Skeptic", they are rabidly, foaming-at-the-mouth, eyes-rolling "Europhóbic".
Has to do with their ingrained distrust of Germany and France.

60-years of co-operation cannot tótally wipe-out centuries of strife between the "big three" Great Britain, Germany and France.

A collapse Euro means a weak Europe....A weak Europe = an easier target for westerward expansion for Russia should they want it.

Europe will be in no position to defend itself from Russian agression if it were to flare up.

I doubt the US would be willing to defend Europe again and their messed up economies. Missile shield will only delay the Russkies a little. Europe will fall in the long term.

From Russia in the east and the newly renewed Ottoman Empire in the south which will walk through the rubbles of Greece.

How far they go and where they stop is another story.

For Europe to survive, nations might have to sucumb their sovereignty to Germany......Europe, or whats left of it shall be called "Germania" And I beleive that will entail everything to the west of Germany/Austria..

I think they will some how keep everything stable until after the election.

.. just a guess.

With the gemans pushing towards a greater poltica and fiscal union.
the new french election migh put a spanner firmly in the core of this machine
French poll, Reuters
Pollitical divergence and attempting fiscal union. not a great plan, it seems the
bankers have forgoten the will of the people still counts for someting especial in
a country like france.
As this rolls one national identity and nationalism will become more potent forces.
good luck to the greeks in their up comming election. and good luck to us all.

I believe it's better this way, maybe Europe just wasn't meant to be. With my meager understanding of economics, the whole Euro plan now looks like it was meant to distribute wealth so economies (Spain, Italy, Greece) would develop more and this would have been better for trade and progress in general.

But it didn't work out, now it would be better to cut losses and try to negotiate something which could work for both sides. Like free holidays for the next few decades, I don't know, free olive oil for Greece's debtors? I pity the Greek though, they seem spoiled and ungrateful I wonder if that attitude will change the next years when they realize what an offer and chance for progress they had.

Maybe something like what happened in Iceland will happen in Greece when some of the worst politicians/bussinessmen get arrested and put on trial and things change for the better. Not that I am fully sure yet whether they as a people caused their own problems with their attitude and unwillingness to conform to 'Europe' or it was indeed just a few who messed it up for the majority.

I don't expect any problems for my country. We'll be paying less to that bottomless pit called Europe so there's going to be more money which can be spend on our own problem areas. I don't know if the Euro is going to end as a currency, I wouldn't be surprised to see it go. All I know is things were better before the Euro, I hope we can return to that.

Timeout for truth and realities. None can hope to escape it.

Regardless if Greece supports or rejects austerity, EU will collapse. Just say thanks to the stubborn bit*h Merkal.

Some claimed that while German benefitted after ww2's Marshall plan, it only amounted to $5billion. Thus, it's not Germany's obligation, being the richest nation in EU, to help failing states with sharing debts which amounted to $1 trillion plus.

But that's a fallacy. $5billion then is worth several times more in today's rate after inflation adjustment. What about opportunities costs, that only USA and the Free world which gave Germany the chance for redemption? Even their own leader Hitler, never gave his own countrymen a chance. He wanted gottermederung - wipe off every germans on Earth.

Fortunately, the germans woke up, and surrendered unconditional, and sought for redemption when retribution was fully justified. Over time, they grew wealthy, with nose to the grind, knowing they had to prove to the world they are not HumanSlayers, only Hitler was.

MNCs grew and spread overseas, accepted by a forgaving world.

Today, under Merkal leadership, she is not fearful, for she believe she has the wealth to tide over any changes or recessions. With trillions in debt owed, she believes that she can call it in and use it to sustain german banks balance sheets and pay off social expenditure for germans.

This is nothing more than pipe dreams. When EU member states say enough is enough of helping german corporations and banks gain wealth through debt enslavement, and defaults, Merkal will be on her knees.

But she is only a puppet and a politician. She can only be voted out, but not punished with jail term for her stupidity. But then, Germany will be in chaos, filled with bank runs and high employment such as spain now, when other EU states stop or do not have the funds to buy german stuffs.

And military conquests will NOT be tolerated in this day and age if Merkal thinks she can use lawyers or soldiers to demand repayment of loans or foreclosure. Thus, in the end, our fellow brothers and sisters in Germany will be the ones to suffer, along with the rest the rest in EU states. Thanks again to the stubborness of Merkal the puppet, of the rothschild german branch.

At least the UK rothschild branch can accept facts, and did what they had to do now.

The fate of EU now lays with the idiotic german bit*h Merkal. Marshall knew growth was essential, NOT austerity, and had supplied tonnes of US dollars to europe and England then to help them grow rich and wealthy, with congressional oversight to ensure each dollar given was to the right pocket and have at least a chance of returns, not just simply to shore up reckless banks as now.

Union based upon the root of evil - money, should have never been started or allowed. But now that it had proven how destructive it is, the only course now is not for blame, but to find solutions, and once stability is reached, a new EU constitution will have to be drafted, this time upon humanity's term and not bankers'.

Greeks, Spaniards withdraw euros by the billions

(AP) ATHENS, Greece - In Europe's most economically stricken countries, people are taking their money out of their banks as a way to protect their savings from the growing financial storm.

Worried that their savings could be devalued, or that banks are on the verge of collapse and that governments cannot make good on deposit insurance, people in Greece, Spain and beyond are withdrawing euros by the billions — behavior that is magnifying their countries' financial stresses.

t's a steady bank "jog" at the moment, not a full-bore run.

www.cbsnews.com...

Originally posted by TritonTaranis
People seem to forget it is a World Economy its a pack of cards all resting on another and when one goes they will all go

The Euro zones problems are but a tea party compared to that of the US

Do you actually realise that the combined gross domestic product of the EU is actually far larger than that of the USA. What made you think that the EU would be a tea party? ignorance or poor education?

How shock waves will hit US if Greece drops euro

The worst case envisions governments defaulting on their debts, a run on European banks and a worldwide credit crunch reminiscent of the financial crisis in the fall of 2008.

Just in case the worst comes to pass, analysts at Barclay's have attempted to estimate the fallout. They say it would be like the days after the investment bank Lehman Brothers collapsed in September 2008. This time, they project that oil would fall to $50 a barrel, stock markets outside of Europe would plunge 30 percent, and the dollar would soar to trade nearly even with the euro.
hosted.ap.org...

Most financial pundits are saying that FRANCE is next on the European chopping block.

I'm just curious as to WHY they all want to hold the Euro together so badly, all these economies are imploding.

Why can't they just collapse the Euro, go back to the currencies that they had before, pegged at the same rates of exchange that they were when they first went into the Euro?

Probably a massively simplistic economic view, but hey, it would probably work. Countries that are massively in debt would end up in hyperinflation, but the countries with strong economic outlooks will prosper better than they ever did under the Euro.

Time to end the single currency experiment.

Hopefully the UK will see some sense and form a Commonwealth trading block.

Distances are huge, but resources and stability of most of the governments would be much more of an economic boon to the UK than the European Union ever was.

If I was still living in the UK, UKIP would have my vote.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
Even their own leader Hitler, never gave his own countrymen a chance. He wanted gottermederung - wipe off every germans on Earth.

I don't believe Hitler wanted to wipe out EVERY German, just wanted to wipe out the ones who weren't blond haired and blue eyed.

reply to post by babybunnies


I think the situation in question is right before the German surrender.

Hitler believed very much in the Nietzsche' concept of "The Will to Power", which in this case translated to the strongest group siezing the world and its resources by force, and imposing their own, strongest will upon things. If the Germans could be defeated, in Hitler's mind this meant that the Germans failed to demonstrate they possessed the strongest resolve and character, and were worthy of destruction. Since the Germans were not the unbeatable master race he had assumed, he had no further plans for Germany.

The German Economy Has Cracked

A significant economic event has taken place in Europe today...

All through the crisis, the German economy has been stunningly resilient, despite the fact that all of its natural export markets were collapsing.

The miracle run is coming to an end.

www.businessinsider.com...

Steepest drop in German private sector output for three years. Euro crisis leads to survey-record monthly fall in service providers’ business outlook.

www.businessinsider.com...

then we have markets slumping today and moodys global downgrade.

looks like this is it.

reply to post by lacrimaererum

Yep

•The IMF said Europe's crisis has reached a "critical stage" and that Euro-Zone countries must share debt and use rescue funds to recapitalize troubled banks directly to ensure the survival of the currency union.
•According to two consulting firms hired by the Spanish government to conduct stress tests on Spanish lenders, Spain's banks would need as much as 62 billion euros in capital to withstand a worst-case scenario.
•Spanish bank stocks rallied after the ECB late yesterday said it will relax rules on the collateral lenders can use for funding. The ECB lowered the minimum rating threshold for mortgage-backed securities to BBB- from A-. Spanish banks had been unable to use some securities as collateral because their ratings were too low.
•India's rupee fell to a record low today of 57.27 per dollar on concern slower economic growth will reduce capital inflows. Q1 India GDP expanded at a 5.3% pace q/q, the weakest pace in 9 years.
•Late yesterday after the U.S. markets closed, Moody's downgraded Morgan Stanley, Credit Suisse Group AG and 13 other international banks, citing "risk of outsized losses inherent to capital market activities."