Would this variation on a crystal radio work?

I'm looking at a diagram of a crystal radio setup and I see that there is a tiny amount of current that can be bled off to a low power earphone to make the radio practical. I keep asking my self where the electrons that form this current come from because the electron flow is always from the antenna down thru the crystal or coil and into the ground not the other way around. It seems to me that the electrons that form the current going to the earphones have to come from the atmosphere.

Now what if there was another connection to the ground that connects with the wire from the antenna above where the earphone is connected and suppose also that this extra ground wire is rectified so that electrons can ONLY flow up from the ground. This would seem to provide a more readily accessible source of electrons that can then flow to the earphones or whatever other load the user wishes. You would have a complete circuit because the electrons from the ground would flow up to the antenna wire, then branch out to the earphones, then loop back to the other side of the crystal of coil and back into the ground. The frequency that is blocked by the crystal or coil provides the force that pulls electrons out of the ground and powers the load.

Years ago, I read somewhere (can't recall where) that in the early days of electrification, the big money power companies used arsen to intimidate farmers who were getting their own power from the environment without the use of fuels or motors of any kind. I could not find a description of this technique but it seems to me that it would have had to be pretty simple for farmers to set up without having to buy or make sophisticated electronic equipment and I wonder if my crystal radio variant idea is how they did it.

reply to post by Studenofhistory


Where is your electron source from ground though? The antenna is converting the electrons in the radio waves to alternating current which then flows down the path of least resistance to ground, powering everything on the way.

How are we going to get power up from the ground if it's dissipating away? If you want more power you could just move closer go the source of the radio wave and get a larger antenna to collect more from the EM wave.

I have been wondering along related lines for a long time, me and a buddy have plans to test out certain set ups, but we have been too busy and really don't have the spare 200 - 300$ currently to do it as of yet.

Those radios were the norm at one point, but since the the current is so small the audio volume output was low, so they got replaces over time with radios that have a power source such as batteries or AC adapter, which is used today.

However that fact is overlooked by most is that they did draw a current, though very small. I have been wondering if this may have been the bases on how Tesla ran his set ups.

There may be a way to up the current draw, but as of yet I only have about 3 methods that I am considering, and 2 are really hard to set up and test, and the 200 - 300$ set-up, like I have said, I haven't had the time to try out yet.

I remember that Art Bell used to talk a lot about his huge ham radio antenna that he had at his place in Pahrump Nevada. It was basically just a very , very long wire that ran suspended around his property and had a mysterious and constant flow of high voltage ,low current running though it at all times. There was enough voltage running through it that it would actually ark ,and had zero recharge time. He even needed to ground it as to not damage his radio equipment.
www.smeter.net...

reply to post by Grifter81

The antenna is converting the electrons in the radio waves to alternating current which then flows down the path of least resistance to ground, powering everything on the way.

Slight correction just because.
The energy in the photons is converted to an alternating flow of electrons in the antenna.

reply to post by Phage


Cheers mate

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Grifter81

 

The antenna is converting the electrons in the radio waves to alternating current which then flows down the path of least resistance to ground, powering everything on the way.

Slight correction just because.
The energy in the photons is converted to an alternating flow of electrons in the antenna.

Even greater correction ... just because photons are NOT involved ...

During reception of an electromagnetic wave (i.e. radio wave), the oscillating electric and magnetic fields of an incoming radio wave exert force on the electrons in the antenna elements, causing them to move back and forth, thereby creating oscillating currents in the antenna.

reply to post by tauristercus


Aren't all EM waves photons though? Just at different frequencies? They carry the energy to impart to the antenna.

reply to post by tauristercus

During reception of an electromagnetic wave (i.e. radio wave), the oscillating electric and magnetic fields of an incoming radio wave exert force on the electrons in the antenna elements, causing them to move back and forth, thereby creating oscillating currents in the antenna.

Is electromagnetic radiation transmitted as a wave or a particle? Sort of depends on how you look at it but what happens to an electromagnetic wave when it collapses upon encountering matter?

Are you sure that a photon doesn't excite an electron of an atom of the antenna, increasing its energy level and causing it to be pushed to the next atom, and so on (that absorption-emission thing). Are you sure that when the electron leaves, it (or its "twin") doesn't have to move back in order to fill the "hole"?

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by tauristercus

 

During reception of an electromagnetic wave (i.e. radio wave), the oscillating electric and magnetic fields of an incoming radio wave exert force on the electrons in the antenna elements, causing them to move back and forth, thereby creating oscillating currents in the antenna.

Is electromagnetic radiation transmitted as a wave or a particle? Sort of depends on how you look at it but what happens to an electromagnetic wave when it collapses upon encountering matter?

Are you sure that a photon doesn't excite an electron of an atom of the antenna, increasing its energy level and causing it to be pushed to the next atom, and so on. Are you sure that when the electron leaves, it (or its "twin") doesn't have to move back in order to fill the "hole"?

edit on 6/13/2012 by Phage because: (no reason given)

I agree that depending on how you set up the experiment, that you're either going to see photons or waves as the outcome ... but in both instances, yes they ARE electromagnetic in nature.

However, to the best of my knowledge (and yes, I could Google for a few hours but am to lazy ), even though we can produce single and most importantly, discrete photons ... I am not so sure that we're able to generate single and discrete photons in the radio wave part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

At the moment, I'm listening to my local radio station which is transmitting at 102.3 Mhz (FM band). Now this is a continuous wave and NOT discrete and individualistic "particle-like" photons. Is it even possible to create a single 102.3Mhz "photon" from the stations transmitting antenna ? As far as I can see, as long as the radio station is transmitting, then it's transmitting a continuous and uninterrupted wave and not trillions upon trillions of individual and discrete photons.

Is this an additional source of energy or a "leak" if you will from the radio?

can it be used to boost the range?

reply to post by tauristercus

As far as I can see, as long as the radio station is transmitting, then it's transmitting a continuous and uninterrupted wave and not trillions upon trillions of individual and discrete photons.

How many watts is the transmitter outputting? How much energy is contained in a single photon of 102.3Mhz? How many photons does it take to carry the power from the transmitter?

In any case, the OP will not get any power from the ground and the antenna. Actually, he already is. Make that, no additional power than what he is already getting.

reply to post by Studenofhistory

I'm looking at a diagram of a crystal radio setup and I see that there is a tiny amount of current that can be bled off to a low power earphone to make the radio practical. I keep asking my self where the electrons that form this current come from because the electron flow is always from the antenna down thru the crystal or coil and into the ground not the other way around. It seems to me that the electrons that form the current going to the earphones have to come from the atmosphere.

It's not really either.

This is really only going to work in an AM radio. AM radios work by inducing current flow along the antenna (usually an inductor). If you are close enough to the broadcast source - you can can actually operate a very basic AM radio without amplification circuitry.

You would have a complete circuit because the electrons from the ground would flow up to the antenna wire, then branch out to the earphones, then loop back to the other side of the crystal of coil and back into the ground. The frequency that is blocked by the crystal or coil provides the force that pulls electrons out of the ground and powers the load.

You're basically just making a secondary winding on a transformer tuned to a certain broadcast frequency. You might get better performance than a similar setup without an earth ground (because the broadcast antenna is theoretically earth-grounded) - but you're not really looking at a setup that is going to power much more than a watch.

Years ago, I read somewhere (can't recall where) that in the early days of electrification, the big money power companies used arsen to intimidate farmers who were getting their own power from the environment without the use of fuels or motors of any kind. I could not find a description of this technique but it seems to me that it would have had to be pretty simple for farmers to set up without having to buy or make sophisticated electronic equipment and I wonder if my crystal radio variant idea is how they did it.

Unlikely.

I recall a story my electronics teacher was telling about the "old days" of power. In many places - the government contracts to run electric wires out to people were interpreted somewhat. A single wire was run out to remote areas and grounded to the earth. Often, not much was powered with these (a light or two).

This was similar to the way some areas would run electricity to remote locations on their property, as well. Rather than run two strands of wire - a single strand would be run and secured to an earth ground (through the load - usually a single light). During dry spells, the connection could be bad - so pouring water on the earth ground (often a metal stake in the ground) would allow the electrolytes in the water to create a viable connection back to the source.

My guess is that what you heard and what I heard are based off of the same history. I'm sure fire accompanied a lot of those setups - and changes in government regulation along with the power companies' growing interest in accurate metering led to the idea that intimidation and arson were involved.

reply to post by Phage


Unless he had a bigger Ariel and/or moved closer to the transmitting antenna. Then he would get more energy from the transmission. But it would only perhaps give him more volume on his headset.

With crystal radios a long 'T' or 'L' shaped simple wire antenna works well.

Originally posted by Grifter81
reply to post by Studenofhistory

 

Where is your electron source from ground though? The antenna is converting the electrons in the radio waves to alternating current which then flows down the path of least resistance to ground, powering everything on the way.

How are we going to get power up from the ground if it's dissipating away? If you want more power you could just move closer go the source of the radio wave and get a larger antenna to collect more from the EM wave.

All energy is always dissipating away and being collected at the same time. Once humans understand this, we have no more need for bills and fuel.

reply to post by angrysniper

All energy is always dissipating away and being collected at the same time. Once humans understand this, we have no more need for bills and fuel.

Maxwell's Demon; a hypothetical device capable of selecting particles in a higher energy state than the mean of the mass and harnessing that energy, has been a concept of physics for generations of researchers.

The obstacle of entropy isn't due to a lack of our understanding the fact that it exists. It is a lack of knowing how to illicit the desired effect - if it is even physically possible to accomplish.

I, personally, am of the opinion that anything can be done via some process. It may not work quite according to our intuition or ideals - but I believe in: "where there is a will, there is a way."

Still: that doesn't mean that you can simply want something hard enough (or mash the "I believe" button incessantly enough) to bring it into existence. I believe we will eventually unravel the ability to negate entropy. Perhaps we will even be able to thoroughly violate it (pun intended) and create a form of over-unity.

That said, once again, you can't hit the "I believe" button and bring something into existence or make something work that doesn't.

I have been electrronics for 40 years with certs and licenses.
Let me set a few thing straight.

Radio waves are not photons. They are electromagnetic waves.

You can reverse the diode in a basic crystal radio and use the other half of the electromagnetic wave. But you would gain nothing.

Art Bells antenna arcing is due to where he lives. It's dry as a bone in that part of Nevada. The wind blows constantly. That creates a static build up on his antenna wires. Just like the carpet in winter.

Solved.

reply to post by samkent

Radio waves are not photons. They are electromagnetic waves.

Ok. Then what are photons?

Explanation: No need to argue ..its already predefined ...

Photon [thefreedictionary.com]

pho·ton (ftn)
n.
1. The quantum of electromagnetic energy, regarded as a discrete particle having zero mass, no electric charge, and an indefinitely long lifetime. See Table at subatomic particle.
2. A unit of retinal illumination, equal to the amount of light that reaches the retina through 1 square millimeter of pupil area from a surface having a brightness of 1 candela per square meter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

pho·tonic adj.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

And ...

photon (ftn)
The subatomic particle that carries the electromagnetic force and is the quantum of electromagnetic radiation. The photon has a rest mass of zero, but has measurable momentum, exhibits deflection by a gravitational field, and can exert a force. It has no electric charge, has an indefinitely long lifetime, and is its own antiparticle. See Note at electromagnetic radiation. See Table at subatomic particle.

The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

The photon packet can and is measured from peak/or trough of the wave to the next peak/or trough!

Its A BOSON = force carrier.

Personal Disclosure: Its like arguing over whether its a dog or a german shepard ... both answers are correct.

Originally posted by samkent
I have been electrronics for 40 years with certs and licenses.
Let me set a few thing straight.


You can reverse the diode in a basic crystal radio and use the other half of the electromagnetic wave. But you would gain nothing.


Solved.

I am guessing that you can do both at the same time? What would change, other than using the other half of the emwave? You would get the same results, correct?