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Women In Masonry

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posted on Oct, 4 2004 @ 06:29 PM
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Now, at the risk of seeming a chauvanist or politically incorrect (heaven forfend!), I want to try to address an issue that has been raised by a couple of non masons, and this is women in the fraternity.

Now, at the risk of being offensive, what part of the concept FRATERNITY is difficult to understand? Merriam Webster Online defines fraternity as follows:


Main Entry: fraternity
Pronunciation: fr&-'t&r-n&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
1 : a group of people associated or formally organized for a common purpose, interest, or pleasure: as a : a fraternal order b : GUILD c : a men's student organization formed chiefly for social purposes having secret rites and a name consisting of Greek letters d : a student organization for scholastic, professional, or extracurricular activities
2 : the quality or state of being brothers : BROTHERLINESS
3 : persons of the same class, profession, character, or tastes


So, nothing in this definition says anything about WOMEN, or females...

Moving along, we come to the salient point. Masonry is a fraterntiy, of men, with a faith in g-d, seeking to be better men through the symbolic study of morality and through service to each other and to the community. This is not to write that women are not good teachers of morality, nor that women are not the social glue that binds us all together, but, and here is the great HOWEVER, men and women relate and communicate differently.

This should be obvious to anyone that has held a conversation with a woman about ANY subject. Each gender approaches problems, situations and issues ina different way, neither necessarily better or worse than the other, but definately different. So, why, then, should it be difficult to understand when men wish to associate with other men in this endeavor?

Moving along, there is also the subject of male bonding. In ancient cultures, this was a given, but those cultures were smaller, more tribal. We could debate endlessly about the need for male bonding, its place in society, how and why it occurs and its value (or lack thereof) but a simple look at national sports is ample demonstration of its place in society.

Moving along to the last point, women in any group tend to change the dynamic of that group, not for the better or worst, but they do change the dynamic. Men, for better or worse, act differently with women around than when they are not. The dynamics change, the goals change, and with those changes come a loss of focus on the goal, and dissention. Not that women create dissention, but with women present... other goals, conscious or unconscious come into play, and distract from the goal.

That is understood by men, who in certain situations, have chosen to associate only with other men to achieve their stated goals... in the case of masonry, the betterment of themselves through fraternal association.

So, the question then that has been raised by non masons is: Why don't you allow women into the fraternity. It has two basic answers, the first is: Why should we? Masonry works as it is, and is successful. You only change something when it is broken, and masonry is FAR from broken.

The second answer is more... basic. WHY SHOULD YOU CARE? If you are not a mason, the question only has the advantage, if you wish to put it that way, of attacking masonry. As a non mason, you have no right to ask, and implicitly demand, for change within masonry and how it operates.

And to expand on that thought a bit, there is WOMEN's masonry available, to women who wish SORRORITAL masonic association. For women who wish co-ed masonic association, there is also CO-Masonry, however, to be honest, real masonry does not and can not recognize either of these latter two as regular masonry, as masonry is a fraternity, and one of the landmarks is that to be a member, the candidate must be a MAN.

I look forward to seeing any rationale as to why regular masonry should allow women members.

[edit on 10/4/04 by theron dunn]




posted on Oct, 4 2004 @ 07:25 PM
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An excellent post, Theron. Very timely and very well-written.

this should be made a board "sticky" if possible.




posted on Oct, 4 2004 @ 08:46 PM
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Good points, Theron. We can only hope your post will put an end to the discussion.

Do we want little boys on the Campfire Girls or little girls in the Cub Scouts? Do men join college sororities and women join college fraternities? Why is Freemasonry held to a different standard? It must be some subconscious need to join what you cannot join.



posted on Oct, 4 2004 @ 08:58 PM
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Do men join college sororities ?


Well . . . . I wouldn't mind THAT . . . lol.

*ahem*



posted on Oct, 5 2004 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by LTD602


Do men join college sororities ?


Well . . . . I wouldn't mind THAT . . . lol.

*ahem*


Most Grand Lodges have been VERY careful to avoid giving NOW or Gloria Alred et al any toehold to even complain. In years past, it was the practice of Grand Lodges around the country to post job openings and jobs wanted, but in light of the Equal Employment Opportunity Act (good thing that it is) the grand Lodges had to cease offering this service to the brothers, for the very reason that is was only open TO the BROTHERS...



posted on Oct, 5 2004 @ 09:35 PM
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yet one more mason 101 recruiting thread, sigh.

LTD is probably right on the 'sticky'

Secret Societies has become a masonic swamp anyway, so why not put masonic sticky stuff on 10 or so mason topics.

Then the masons could declare themselves, be the only ones to post in those threads and things would get quiet.

Bet the MODs would appreciate that and DTOM wouldn't have to pop in so much and stroke the threads.

Go mason sticky!



posted on Oct, 5 2004 @ 09:40 PM
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Easy, there, Gadfly. Nothing in this thread was directed at you personally. No reason to get all upsset. Theron was just explaining the reasons women are denied entrance into mainstream masonry.



posted on Oct, 5 2004 @ 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly
yet one more mason 101 recruiting thread, sigh.

LTD is probably right on the 'sticky'

Secret Societies has become a masonic swamp anyway, so why not put masonic sticky stuff on 10 or so mason topics.

Then the masons could declare themselves, be the only ones to post in those threads and things would get quiet.

Bet the MODs would appreciate that and DTOM wouldn't have to pop in so much and stroke the threads.

Go mason sticky!


Well, thanks, Gadfly... your not such a pain after all...

Seriously, though (just for a change, gadfly, YOU might try it...) lets be serious, eh?

I am NOT recruiting. I am answering an issue that YOU raised, not once, but at least three times. It seems to be an issue that you hold dear, along with your nonsensical racism claim, so in the spirit of the free exchange of ideas and points of view, i wrote an editorial regarding the subject, explaining it as I see it within the masonic framework and custom. How, pray tell, is that recruiting?

Oh, wait, I get it now... in your lexicon, anything positive or HONEST about masonry, that does not slander or defame it with innuendo and sly half truths or outright falsehoods is recruiting... uh huh... is it your contention that this and all forums should be reserved for folks like you that just want to slander masonry?

The MODS seem to see it differently. I got a 250 point KUDO for this article, so I guess it is not all that bad... you see, in a free society, the free exchange of ideas is a FREEDOM we all cherish... its called the RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH, and its a right that cuts BOTH ways. I know it may be a little hard to compass for you, but it means that if you get to speak against something, I get to speak in favor of it... balance, you know, yin and yang...

So, do you have anything to ADD to the thread, or were you just venting?

The issue, just to keep things on track, is women in freemasonry... thanks.



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 08:08 AM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Secret Societies has become a masonic swamp anyway, so why not put masonic sticky stuff on 10 or so mason topics.


Gadfly, you are the one who starts many of the mason threads, prolongs most of the others, and then you have the nerve to complain about the volume? I'd like to see more threads on other societies myself, as would most others, I assume, but instead I have to be content with reading yours.



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by JonestownRed
I'd like to see more threads on other societies myself, as would most others, I assume, but instead I have to be content with reading yours.


Just trying to do my 'civic duty.' ATS is a community - guess what?

I am YOUR neighbor!

Show me where I have held your head to make you read something-- show me.

This mason 101 stuff is pure propaganda on a semi-public forum and EVERYONE knows it.

So, make 'em sticky. Stop the charade. Allow only masons to post. That way you guys can stroke each other all day long and lurkers won't be any the wiser. They'll just 'assume' masonry is a.o.k.


No more 'deny ignorance' stuff, just 'what good boys we be' malarky



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Allow only masons to post. That way you guys can stroke each other all day long and lurkers won't be any the wiser.


How about no more comments like that? Definately rude and unwarranted.



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 01:38 PM
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Zed
250 pts. down for posting my perspective.

Gotta love it.

So I guess someone posting about being a Democrat or a Republican or a Klucker and what great things they get from their respective party will be acceptable as well?


bod

posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 01:46 PM
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I would dearly like to see you post something that is genuinely your perspective, gadfly.
All I have seen so far is a rehash of the same old lines that have been around since the year dot, there is nothing new or informative in your postings.
Stamping your feet 'cos you can't have your own way isn't big and it ain't clever.



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Zed
250 pts. down for posting my perspective.

Gotta love it.

So I guess someone posting about being a Democrat or a Republican or a Klucker and what great things they get from their respective party will be acceptable as well?


It was not perspective that was the issue. It was for the "stroke yourselves comment", which is insulting. Gotta love that you didn't even see the obvious.

As for the other question...I'm not sure what a "Klucker" is, but maybe this is the thread you're looking for? (I'll point it out for you in case you miss it)
The Secrets of the KKK

I would imagine posting what great things recieved would be just fine.



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander

Originally posted by PublicGadfly
Allow only masons to post. That way you guys can stroke each other all day long and lurkers won't be any the wiser.


How about no more comments like that? Definately rude and unwarranted.


Seemed pretty harsh Zed, ive seen worse than that let go by a Mod. I didnt find it insulting in any way, but im not a Mason.
As for stickying theron dunns post id agree with you if this was a masonic website, but it isnt, so i dont. Perhaps we should leave it up to Zedd to decide what should be stickied and what should not.

[edit on 6-10-2004 by Janus]



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 02:02 PM
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Well, while watching gadfly make a fool of himself has been entertaining, can ANYONE tell me what this has to do wtih women in masonry? Not to be too priggish here, but that IS the subject of this thread, and once more, gadfly has managed to derail the topic.

ANYONE have ANYTHING to write about women in masonry? If not, Zzz, could you just lock this thread?

thanks



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by theron dunn
Well, while watching gadfly make a fool of himself has been entertaining, can ANYONE tell me what this has to do wtih women in masonry? Not to be too priggish here, but that IS the subject of this thread, and once more, gadfly has managed to derail the topic.

ANYONE have ANYTHING to write about women in masonry? If not, Zzz, could you just lock this thread?

thanks


Perhaps we should let Zedd decide that too?

[edit on 6-10-2004 by Janus]



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 02:09 PM
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Yeah, sorry for the intrusion...we should all let it get back on topic (me included).

I'll let it go just a bit, but if not...I will lock it at Theron's request.



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by Janus
Seemed pretty harsh Zed, ive seen worse than that let go by a Mod. I didnt find it insulting in any way, but im not a Mason.
As for stickying theron dunns post id agree with you if this was a masonic website, but it isnt, so i dont. Perhaps we should leave it up to Zedd to decide what should be stickied and what should not.


J,

ATS is kind of like a football game, not every penalty gets called, and sometimes a "ticky tack" penalty gets called when maybe it shouldn't (I'll recuse myself on this current incident for obvious reasons). The crux of the matter is that it all works out (a tired clich', but it's the truth).

Fair Monkeys, not just for the sideshows anymore...



posted on Oct, 6 2004 @ 02:33 PM
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Well then . .. . . . . .

So . . . .no women in Masonry because it's a fraternity.

Actually, I really don't think women in general have a problem with it. At least I hvae not seen any women on ATS (who I know are women) complaining about it. Nearly all the older Masons I know have wives, anyway.

It is standard practice for a prospective Mason's spouse to be interviewed (briefly) as well, and she's basically asked whether she approves of her husband's decision to become a Mason. If she objects for any reason whatsoever, the husband needs to reevaulate his decision. During my meetings with the Masons at the Lodge, this point was emphasized repeatedly.

[edit on 6-10-2004 by LTD602]

[edit on 6-10-2004 by LTD602]




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