Gaming : Input Lag Myth (Odd Conclusion)

Lets cut right to the chase; I'm creating this thread because I got into a one sided debate with someone with no proof who is 110% sure that what he/she is saying is correct. I decided to take a little action.

This is all about gaming - Xbox, PS3, Gears of War, Call of Duty, Halo Wars, and everything else gaming wise.

He's/She's saying : HDTV's input lag reduces gaming performance. (Reaction time, control, delays, which can tie into skill)

I'm saying : HDTV's input lag have nothing to do with how fast you are & don't determine how good you are on a video game.

For those who don't know what display lag is :

Display lag is a phenomenon associated with some types of LCD displays, and nearly all types of HDTVs, that refers to latency, or lag measured by the difference between the time a signal input enter a display and the time it takes for that input to be shown on the display. This lag time has been measured as high as 68ms,[1] or the equivalent of 3-4 frames on a 60 Hz display. Display lag is not to be confused with pixel response time.

Latency :

Latency is a measure of time delay experienced in a system, the precise definition of which depends on the system and the time being measured. Latencies may have different meaning in different contexts.

Or my favorite, lag :

Lag is a common word meaning to fail to keep up or to fall behind.[1] In real-time applications, the term is used when the application fails to respond in a timely fashion to inputs.[2][3] The most common use regards online gaming when the game doesn't respond in sync with the player's controls, usually due to a slow internet connection, server latency or overworked hardware.
Lag is also often used in reference to video games to describe to the delay (or latency) between an action by a player and the reaction of the game.[4]
In distributed applications (such as MMORPGs), lag is often caused by communication latency, which is the time taken for a sent packet of data to be received at the other end. It includes the time to encode the packet for transmission and transmit it, the time for that data to traverse the network equipment between the nodes, and the time to receive and decode the data. This is also known as "one-way latency". A minimum bound on latency is determined by the distance between communicating devices and the speed at which the signal propagates in the circuits (typically 70–95% of the speed of light in vacuum). Actual latency is often much higher because of packet processing in networking equipment, and other traffic.
The term lag is often also used as a synonym for communication latency.[5] This can be misleading because there can be other causes for the symptom.

A simple google search will give you all of these in a heartbeat.
Now that you understand those, heres what I have to say :

Anyone can obviously see where he/she is coming from. If your holding a controller, and you a press a button, the time it takes for your screen to take action depending on what you pressed is display lag.

Every TV you will ever buy in your life will have display lag. Nothing is fast as lighting remember, its a universal law. ;D

Click this link for human reaction time dealing with input lag.

Before your eyes shift anywhere on that link, pay attention to the headline above the results.
"Average reaction time by gender". This means that certain people are slower and faster.
Obviously right?

To get to the main point, input lag does not cause your skill level to decrease. It does not cause you to do bad in a video game. Now the catch is this : Certain people have a certain tolerance to input lag. Certain peoples reactions are so fast that depending on a number of factors including the game, connection, latency & other things, it may not mean anything at all.

You may even get so used to a input lag, that you play like you don't even have it.
So in conclusion, its entirely dependent on the person, and many other factors.

reply to post by Vandettas


That's interesting. I'd believe that a slower response time would be detrimental to gaming. Comparing a 20ms response to a 80ms response, you should see a difference. But, it's never been a problem for me.

Though, I do hear "LAG" being yelled across the room quite often, usually when major failure is occurring on the yelling person's end of the game...

I just got done playing MW3 and almost slit my wrists. Whether that is lag or HDTV performance it defiantly is frustrating. Never had that problem in Black Ops though.

Debunker:

Input Lag example for console gaming

The process that occurs from when the user presses a button to when the screen reacts is outlined below (steps which have negligible response time contributions have been omitted). Each step in the process adds response time (commonly known as "input lag"), which varies from minor to noticeable.

1: Controller sends signal to console For wired controllers, this lag is negligible. For wireless controllers, opinions vary as to the effect of this lag. It is likely that opinions vary due to each user's sensitivity to lag, model of wireless controller and the other equipment in the signal chain (i.e. the rest of their gaming setup).

2: Network lag (online gaming only) Since the console must know the current location of other players, there is sometimes a delay as this information travels over the network. This occurs in games where the input signals are "held" for several frames (to allow time for the data to arrive at every player's console) before being used to render the next frame. At 25 FPS, holding 4 frames adds 40ms to the overall input lag.

3: Console processes information and sends frame output to television A console will send out a new frame once it has finished processing it. This is measured with the frame rate. Using Gran Turismo 5 as an example, the maximum theoretical framerate is 60 FPS (frames per second), which means the minimum theoretical input lag for the overall system is 17ms (note: the maximum real world FPS in 3D mode is 40-50 FPS).[5] In situations where processor load is high (e.g. many cars are on-screen on a wet track), this can drop to 30 FPS (16 FPS for 3D mode) which is equivalent to 32ms.

4: Television processes frame (image correction, upscaling, etc.) and pixel changes colour This is the "input lag" of the television. Image processing (such as upscaling, 100 Hz, motion smoothing, edge smoothing) takes time and therefore adds some degree of input lag. It is generally considered that input lag of a television below 30ms is not noticeable,[6] discussions on gaming forums tend to agree with this value. Once the frame has been processed, the final step is the pixel response time for the pixel to display the correct colour for the new frame. Typical overall response times Overall response times (from controller input to display response) have been conducted in these tests:
www.eurogamer.net...
It appears that overall input lag times of approximately 200ms are distracting to the gamer. It also appears that (excluding television input lag) 133ms is an average response time and the most sensitive games (first person shooters and Guitar Hero) achieve response times of 67ms (again, excluding television input lag).

Seems like someone didn't finish reading the Wikipedia article

Research both sides of the argument (pros and cons) before wasting the valuable time of us ATSers.

reply to post by Vandettas


All I know is that my step-daughter kicks most guys behinds in Call of Duty!!!!

Personally, I think it's her style. She goes in shooting, every time, where most players are more cautious. It works for her.

In my online gaming days there was a strong correlation between how got the most kills and who had the best ping times as faster connections do provide a more up to date situational awareness. While some adaptation can be made with the various forms of lag, it does take its toll. When getting into high stakes competition, only the fastest machines will do.

reply to post by gwynnhwyfar
Does your step daughter play MW3 or COD Black Ops?? Cuz consistency wise, Black Ops is waaaay better in my honest opinion.

reply to post by shake101


I've went over the things you've highlighted in bold in the OP already.
Take a closer look.

What you posted from that website was just a TV statistic :

This is the "input lag" of the television. Image processing (such as upscaling, 100 Hz, motion smoothing, edge smoothing) takes time and therefore adds some degree of input lag.

This here :

It appears that overall input lag times of approximately 200ms are distracting to the gamer.

I never said it wasn't. If you read this part :

Now the catch is this : Certain people have a certain tolerance to input lag. Certain peoples reactions are so fast that depending on a number of factors including the game, connection, latency & other things, it may not mean anything at all.

Its dependent on the person. That, and again, many other factors.

By the way, this false statement is a low blow :

Research both sides of the argument (pros and cons) before wasting the valuable time of us ATSers

I did research both sides. Look at the opening sentences before the references to the wikipedia articles explaining display lag.

Originally posted by gwynnhwyfar
reply to post by Vandettas

 

All I know is that my step-daughter kicks most guys behinds in Call of Duty!!!!

Personally, I think it's her style. She goes in shooting, every time, where most players are more cautious. It works for her.

As I do my friend!

Lag has been my problem since day one.

reply to post by kwakakev


And we don't have the money to buy a $5000 computer every time a new game comes out! Am I right?

reply to post by Mapkar


Dependent on the person. So in some cases yes, takes a tremendous toll. TV's response time along with yours.
Other factors included.

reply to post by Vandettas


Gaming is about having fun and you can do that on most computers, even on second had 20 year old ones. If you want to take it serious and try out for best in the world then you are going to need to put a lot into it like any athlete or hobbyist.

reply to post by Vandettas


That's what I was thinking. I play games like battlefield but the delay seems minimal. I think it's more applicable to games that have a faster pace, and that require precise timing. Like the band and rhythm games; those have specific settings to offset the delay between sound and presented video due to extensive video processing. I haven't actually sat and analyzed the prospect of display delay, thanks for bringing it to the discussion table!

reply to post by Vandettas


Your headline is titled "Input Lag MYTH."

I suppose it is misleading since apparently now you agree that there is such a thing called input lag. However, the fact remains it does make a significant difference in hardcore gaming.

How much of a difference? Sure, you could say it depends on the person. And to most people it won't make a difference because well, most people are not hardcore gamers.

On the other hand, to a hardcore gamer it will make a significant difference as hardcore gamers typically have better reaction time and a few hundred milliseconds of extra lag can affect your performance, especially when the opponent your facing is experiencing minimal or less lag.

Playing ANY game for extended periods causes your body to adapt to the equipment.

Like on Diablo 3, on a satellite connection. Now THAT is lag.

I'd like to think your friend is trying to blame the equipment for sucky playing skilz.

Tell them they just need to man up and say they suck!

reply to post by Vandettas


I have never heard the display lag argument before and that is pretty desperate for anyone using it in my opinion

For anyone who wants to know how to beat anyone else playing shooters in console to console gaming online...

PS3 keyboard and mouse adapter

Xbox Keyboard and mouse adapter

A mouse is far faster at head turns than a joypad, more accurate too and the keyboard is far better when programmed with hotkeys.

I rest my case and this is how you get people who have ridiculously high frag rates without cheats.

If you think this is bollocks, try it on a LAN against someone better than you, make them use a joypad and you use the mouse and keyboard. Unless you are new to the game or not used to a mouse and keyboard you will win all the time.

Obviously if you are online and have a terrible ping rate this cannot be completely avoided but for anyone with a decent connection, it will work unless the other person has the same setup with a good connection and you are the less skilled player.

reply to post by gwynnhwyfar


You're asking me? I'm no gamer, I just watch.

Her Dad just told me it is Modern Warfare 3.

reply to post by gwynnhwyfar
Yep, the most laggiest (if thats a word) game there is. I love this game but the Lag issues drive me crazy. No other online game I have played has the problem that this one has on a consistent basis.

Still my favorite game to play was Unreal Tournament (GOTY edition I think) and I think the answer to this problem is dedicated servers. Battlefield 3 has it (too slow paced to me) and yes, that isnt a problem with that game.

I will tell you though, the Playstation 3 looks more enticing after watching the E3 demos they showed. They are starting to get the full potential out of that chip.

Originally posted by shake101
reply to post by Vandettas

 

Your headline is titled "Input Lag MYTH."

I suppose it is misleading since apparently now you agree that there is such a thing called input lag.

I debunked a myth that was about input lag. How is the title misleading?

However, the fact remains it does make a significant difference in hardcore gaming.

Not fact. Opinion. Even if it was true, again, it will depend on a what a person defines as significant & what a person defines as hardcore gaming.

How much of a difference? Sure, you could say it depends on the person.

It does.

On the other hand, to a hardcore gamer it will make a significant difference as hardcore gamers typically have better reaction time and a few hundred milliseconds of extra lag can affect your performance

No. Read this again.

The only games I've ever had a problem with input lag on are Guitar Hero and Rock Band, but when you're playing at the speed of light and need pin-point accuracy any lag makes a difference.

However....EVERY tv has input lag, regardless of whether its HD or not. So its kind of an invalid argument.
But host lag. Now THAT'S a problem.
Or getting drunk in GTA IV.