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Originally posted by nenothtu
Originally posted by brukernavn
There has never been a country which practices communism (workers owning the means of production), hence I cannot have experienced such. Try harder next time.
The party line is always that the workers DO own the means of production, because the government owns them, and being generally described as a "democracy", the people own the government and run it, therefore owning everything the government owns.
That has always been the explanation for "worker ownership of the means of production" in every actual communist theoretical democracy that has so far ever existed. going by their logic, there's not a flaw in the theory of it, the flaw is in the implementation.
Originally posted by krossfyter
please the score---- it was a joke. it was intended to be sarcasm. true this has been an enlightening conversation from the ANOX and the OP and those that are or have been civil towards them.
Originally posted by krossfyter
...
there is a flaw in the implementation of everything correct?
The Cuban Revolution of 1959 was a broadly based nationalist revolution against a corrupt government.
Originally posted by nenothtu
Originally posted by krossfyter
please the score---- it was a joke. it was intended to be sarcasm. true this has been an enlightening conversation from the ANOX and the OP and those that are or have been civil towards them.
I dunno. I thought it was funny, so I gave it a star, even though I'm on the "losing" side of your stats. *shrug*
Originally posted by krossfyter
there is a flaw in the implementation of everything correct?
Originally posted by brukernavn
In the USSR, China, North Korea, and Cuba the workers own/owned the means of production? Link please.
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Originally posted by brukernavn
In the USSR, China, North Korea, and Cuba the workers own/owned the means of production? Link please.
Like always, you seem to forget that the ROAD to the final goal of communism "supposedly is long"... There are many stages, even within communism, which makes many countries COMMUNIST/socialist despite them not reaching some of the claims made by Marx... At least in a way.. If you ask the Cuban elite they will tell you the means of production is owned by the people...but the state, for the good of the people, decides what to do with the means of production...
Yes, the U.S.S.R. China, North Korea and Cuba are/were communist... Now the Soviet union is becoming something else...
BTW, no matter how many times you, and other socialist/communists, who really know nothing about socialism/communism, want to claim that these countries were/are not "socialist/communist" doesn't make it true...
It is EXTREMELY telling and funny how socialists/communists love to claim the U.S. is completely capitalist, even thou a FREE MARKET HASN"T EXISTED IN THE UNITED STATES FOR A LONG TIME... Yet despite this they keep calling the U.S. as "capitalist" and "imperialist"...
But isn't it ironic that because they want to "play semantics" with socialism/communism they WANT TO CLAIM socialism/communism has not been tried when this is not true?...
IF socialism/communism has never been tried, then capitalism has never existed...
edit on 16-6-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by INDOMITABLE
I am truly interested in the worker keeping the fruits of his labor.
The reason is because I stumbled upon a verse in the Bible that spoke about when you are in heaven you will receive everything you sow. It basically said when you sow, you will sow only for yourself. There are verses that speak very badly about someone who reaps where he doesn't sow.
Originally posted by brukernavn
No, it is not funny. In fact, it is extremely sad. These dictators run under the guise of communism, but in fact they are against it. If they truly were in favour of communism, they would be favour o f worker ownership, not state ownership. Again, your logic fails.
since communism is built around no property rights, who would "own" anything?
If they truly were in favour of communism, they would be favour o f worker ownership, not state ownership.
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
A lot of people, including many Americans forget that the Vietnam war was started by China taking over Vietnam. Chinese and vietcom murdered tens of thousands of disarmed people overnight to take over main sections of Vietnam. China also invaded Tibet claiming that it was part of China despite the cultural differences and the fact that the Tibetans NEVER have wanted to live under the tyrannical rule of the Chinese COMMUNISTS...
Karl Marx
Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Private Property and Communism
Re. p. XXXIX. [This refers to the missing part of the second manuscript. - Ed.] The antithesis between lack of property and property, so long as it is not comprehended as the antithesis of labour and capital, still remains an indifferent antithesis, not grasped in its active connection, in its internal relation, not yet grasped as a contradiction. It can find expression in this first form even without the advanced development of private property (as in ancient Rome, Turkey, etc.). It does not yet appear as having been established by private property itself. But labour, the subjective essence of private property as exclusion of property, and capital, objective labour as exclusion of labour, constitute private property as its developed state of contradiction – hence a dynamic relationship driving towards resolution.
...
The same centralization is currently ongoing in the US right now, at this very moment
Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Originally posted by krossfyter
sorry im not a communist. im here trying to learn. i realize from all this dialogue going on back and forth is that ANOK and the OP have behaved very civil towards everyone but most of the rest havent returned in kind. speaks volumes.
...
ANOK hasn't been so kind as you claim... And btw, if you had actually lived and experienced life under socialism/communism perhaps then you will understand why people like me fight so hard against people who keep lying through their teeths like ANOK about socialism/communism...
Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by brukernavn
i'm still hoping to see a logical argument for such a stance but instead, words like these are supposed to be what exactly, comforting ??
since communism is built around no property rights, who would "own" anything?
If they truly were in favour of communism, they would be favour o f worker ownership, not state ownership.
even if, worker ownership existed, what would they own, exactly ?
do they own the product produced ? do they own the resources necessary to produce it ? or, do they merely own the "tools" to produce while everything else is owned by the "state" or controlling entity ?
i ask this because if we already have/own sufficient tools but cannot access the resources necessary to produce, how is what you describe any different than what many experience currently, even in the USA ??
Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by nenothtu
That is what the far right said under Bush, but he expanded government like the US has never seen before. They seem to be for the expanding of government as long as it is their pary doing it.
Originally posted by krossfyter
first of all thank you for the civil and respectful response.
maybe these anti communists some how were able to effectively counter the implications of the true communism that ANOK and the OP have mentioned that they distorted it.... and i mean SUCCESSFULLY DISTORTED IT... to the point that most in the west or in the US have believed falsely about what true communism really is.
that was the plan all along? maybe it leads to a more sinister and covert or cloaked form of slavery or fascism one where you dont believe you are in it. where the slavery they have you in feels like freedom. the suppose communism (faux communism perhaps) that was practiced in USSR/CUBA/CHINA etc. is a BLUNT form of slavery. maybe America/US is a subtle form. a soft form. a form that takes humans longer to respond and react effectively to because apathy is in the equation?