I joined the Communist Party

reply to post by ANOK


Oh Im sorry I didn't know I was supposed to read through 34 pages of absolute nonsense before replying. Next time I will seek your permission. NOT.

I read through 15 pages of the same ol' same ol' arguments and nothing concrete has come about.

I have The Communist Manifesto on my iPad (gotta love that capitalism) but I haven't gotten past page 10. Please give me a cliff's note version of what true communism looks like.

I am truly interested in the worker keeping the fruits of his labor.

The reason is because I stumbled upon a verse in the Bible that spoke about when you are in heaven you will receive everything you sow. It basically said when you sow, you will sow only for yourself. There are verses that speak very badly about someone who reaps where he doesn't sow.

Because of THIS I started to look at capitalism as ideal for the state of human affairs, BUT inherently unjust since those who do the sowing don't actually reap the benefits and since those who do not really sow reap disproportionately.

So, like I said I am very open to what you have to say if you would explain or at the very least provide a link.

OR, Maybe you'll just keep talking in circles and laughing at those who do not understand.

Just a Reminder

ATS does not espouse any particular ideology over another save one: Members are to remain civil to one another.

Debate the topic and not the person.

Originally posted by krossfyter

again... thats not communism like ANOX and the OP keeps telling EVERYONE time and time again. geeez.

Really? and why is that, because NEW socialists/communist want to TRY AGAIN to implement the same socialism/communism which caused the murder of over 122.3 MILLION PEOPLE?... Geez...

Not to mention that you idol ANOK, talked approvingly of what happened during the RED Terror in Spain, when socialists, communists and anarchists took over parts of Spain. The REDs (socialists/communists, and anarchists) decided to start murdering people, from capitalists, landowners, plant bosses, to the clergy, including nuns... The mere suspicion that a person could be religious was enough fr the REDS to murder that person...

In two months your idols the REDs murdered almost 7,000 priests, nuns and other clergy, and in general they murdered from 38,000 -100,000 people... This is why Franco rose, and the majority of Spain turned against the REDS and their simpahizers. Spain has always had a majority of Catholics in the nation...

Your friend ANOK, spoke approvingly of the events done by the REDS, and claimed that "was the only time when socialism was effectivaly implemented"... Yeah, by murdering INNOCENT PEOPLE...

Originally posted by ANOK
The state system protects capitalism by demonizing any competition, working class socialism is a threat to the power and control of the capitalists.
...

Socialism/communism demonized themselves more than enough... They never needed the help of capitalism... There were enough idiots who wanted more control, such as you want, and which caused genocide, just as apparently you want to commite again...

I am wondering if perhaps you are on of those "socialists/communists" who ran to the west after committing genecide , and once again want to establish your "reign of terror"... You are even the right age.

Originally posted by brukernavn

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Adama
If we Americans lose the coming battle in November, people like this self avowed Communist (The OP) will be handing over the the names of all us patriots here who have been calling him out, and we will be executed by Obama himself!

edit on 15-6-2012 by Adama because: clarity

Get a grip, man! there IS no "battle" this coming November. Your "choice" is between Obamney and Obamney. It's like buying a pair of shoes, then getting home, opening the box, and discovering they are both for the left foot.


The OP isn't even American - why in the hell would he want to hand your name to anyone?

Thank you. Another major rebuttal to this person´s ignorant rant is that Obama is not even communist. Obama wants the state to control things, as far as I can see. Obama does not appear to want to make government smaller, which is anti-communist in itself.

edit on 6/15/2012 by brukernavn because: one too many s´s

agreed. while i see OBAMA as the lesser of the evils (what we usually have to work with here in America, unfortunately, and no i dont think he is evil incarnate, just a figure of speech) he and Romney or the two party system in general are just two heads from the same monster making people think we have a choice when we actually dont. but thats another thread. and you are right OBAMA and ROmeny are both controlled by GOLDMAN SACHS. that tells you something right there.

Originally posted by INDOMITABLE
...
The reason is because I stumbled upon a verse in the Bible that spoke about when you are in heaven you will receive everything you sow. It basically said when you sow, you will sow only for yourself. There are verses that speak very badly about someone who reaps where he doesn't sow.
...

in communism you don't sow what you reap... What you reap is CLAIMED to be for the community, but in fact it is mostly used to keep the Communist Party in power, or by spreading communism by force to other nations. You see, "spreading the revolution worldwide" is more important than the individual, and more important that feeding the people properly...

At the age of 11 or 12 years old every child in Cuba has to work for free for the STATE "for the good of the revolution" and for about 45 days, children work on what are labor camps. They get diseases from the conditions of where they live and how they must harvest. The water in those areas is no treated which alongside the lack of food causes for these children to have all sorts of stomach conditions.

My sisters always came back thin as sticks, my lice in their hair, in Cuba you use vinegar to kill lice and ticks and such, and vinegar is expensive.

Cuba IS a communist state... Remember what EVERY communist/socialists, including Marx said about "owning private property... Under socialism/communism NO ONE OWNS ANYTHING... Hence when a communist tells you that "the workers will own the means of production" it actually means that the STATE will own the emans of production "in the name of the workers"...

You have to read the small print you can find in socialist/communist writtings to understand what it really is...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by krossfyter

again... thats not communism like ANOX and the OP keeps telling EVERYONE time and time again. geeez.

Really? and why is that, because NEW socialists/communist want to TRY AGAIN to implement the same socialism/communism which caused the murder of over 122.3 MILLION PEOPLE?... Geez...

Not to mention that you idol ANOK, talked approvingly of what happened during the RED Terror in Spain, when socialists, communists and anarchists took over parts of Spain. The REDs (socialists/communists, and anarchists) decided to start murdering people, from capitalists, landowners, plant bosses, to the clergy, including nuns... The mere suspicion that a person could be religious was enough fr the REDS to murder that person...

In two months your idols the REDs murdered almost 7,000 priests, nuns and other clergy, and in general they murdered from 38,000 -100,000 people... This is why Franco rose, and the majority of Spain turned against the REDS and their simpahizers. Spain has always had a majority of Catholics in the nation...

Your friend ANOK, spoke approvingly of the events done by the REDS, and claimed that "was the only time when socialism was effectivaly implemented"...

Yeah, by murdering INNOCENT PEOPLE...

sorry im not a communist. im here trying to learn. i realize from all this dialogue going on back and forth is that ANOK and the OP have behaved very civil towards everyone but most of the rest havent returned in kind. speaks volumes.

i just simply want people to respect people. that is it. i want people to live in harmony and in peace and i realize that the current system in america could be better if we had more bottom up approach. a government of the people, by the people, for the people. that is it. i totally detest the fact that the 1% want to get bailed out on the backs of the american people/ the middle class and hate the fact that they throw the finger to the middle class and the poor while they get richer. anything wrong with that?

and well said Ahabstar. thank you.

Originally posted by ANOK

Instead of learning what those terms really mean you have all accepted the propaganda. What a country does is not the definition of a label they use. The definition came long before nations appropriated those terms.

Again a little history, from 1959...

...Unless socialism is altogether a mirage, it will rise again as an international movement-or not at all. In any case, and on the basis of past experience, those interested in the rebirth of socialism must stress its internationalism most of all. While it is impossible for a socialist to become a nationalist, he is nevertheless an anti-colonialist and anti-imperialist. However, his fight against colonialism does not imply adherence to the principle of national self-determination, but expresses his desire for a non-exploitative, international socialist society....

Paul Mattick 1959 Nationalism and Socialism

Nationalism replaced the previous imperialist powers, whatever you want to call it Russia was far better off under nationalism than imperialism, and even than now since the end of "communism". But it was not communist. Nations appropriated left-wing terms and used them for their own ends.

Is that the main difference between "socialism" and "nationalism" then - the suggestion that nationalism is confined within national borders, and socialism is intent on world conquest irrespective of national borders?

Originally posted by nenothtu

Is that the main difference between "socialism" and "nationalism" then - the suggestion that nationalism is confined within national borders, and socialism is intent on world conquest irrespective of national borders?

Don't listen to ANOK, he is completely confused, or on purpose tries to confuse the topic. In fact there are national socailists, just like there are national communists.

Under socialism/communists Nationalists want to concentrate on their own country, meanwhile "internationalists" want to spread socialism/communism to the whole world.

For example, and I have said this before, Stalin was a nationalist, but also a communist. He wanted communism for the good of the U.S.S.R. meanwhile Torsky and Lenin wanted international Communism. To spread communism worldwide.

It is because of there and other international socailists/communists that the United States and western countries sought to stop the spread of socialism/communism.

A lot of people, including many Americans forget that the Vietnam war was started by China taking over Vietnam. Chinese and vietcom murdered tens of thousands of disarmed people overnight to take over main sections of Vietnam. China also invaded Tibet claiming that it was part of China despite the cultural differences and the fact that the Tibetans NEVER have wanted to live under the tyrannical rule of the Chinese COMMUNISTS...

Originally posted by krossfyter


sorry im not a communist. im here trying to learn. i realize from all this dialogue going on back and forth is that ANOK and the OP have behaved very civil towards everyone but most of the rest havent returned in kind. speaks volumes.
...

ANOK hasn't been so kind as you claim... And btw, if you had actually lived and experienced life under socialism/communism perhaps then you will understand why people like me fight so hard against people who keep lying through their teeths like ANOK about socialism/communism...

Originally posted by krossfyter

im very appalled at how many of my fellow US citizens are ignorant of propaganda from the corporatist side or the side that put a smear/red scare on the term communism.

know your enemy.

There are fewer and fewer of us around who actually faced them as enemies to have any idea of what to "know". Most of us old farts see that as part of the problem of the propaganda war - that fewer and fewer have ever seen any of it as applied in the real world, and so are operating on theory alone. Some here lived it on the ground, and those seem to be running 3 to 1 against communism, but it must be acknowledged that there is that 25% that is FOR it.

Another part of the problem is that some who have seen it as applied are scratching their heads at the apparent changes in the theory of it. The theory that you all seem to be espousing now has little resemblance to what was preached about it in the 60's 70's and 80's, and by "preached" I don't mean by the capitalists, I mean by the socialists both overseas where the practical application made some headway, and right here in the US by self described Marxists, Socialists, and Communists. The last time I hit a Pathfinder bookstore was in the late 80's or early 90's, around the time of the Soviet collapse, and at that time they were still preaching Soviet-style communism, not this system that seems to be in play here.

It's all very confusing, which is why I'm trying to get a handle on it.

Originally posted by krossfyter

sorry im not a communist. im here trying to learn. i realize from all this dialogue going on back and forth is that ANOK and the OP have behaved very civil towards everyone but most of the rest havent returned in kind. speaks volumes.

i just simply want people to respect people. that is it. i want people to live in harmony and in peace and i realize that the current system in america could be better if we had more bottom up approach. a government of the people, by the people, for the people. that is it.

listen, you are just too naive to understand what is happening. The implementation of socialism/communism is not going to make the world "enter into a time of peace and happiness...

I have tried to be civil with the like of ANOK, and he has shown his colors by writing in favor of the RED Terror in Spain.

People like you, who have never experienced or lived under communism, yet you want to claim that people like me know nothing about it, which is the reason why I am writting to you with more respect...

You see, those who like you have never seen what happens when socialism/communism thriumps, and think that "the sky will turn pink and everyone will be embracing everyone else with smiles on the lips" this is nothing more than fantastical lies...

The workers NEVER own ANYTHING under either socialism or Communism... How hard is it for you people to understand this even when you are given the statements from the founders of socialism/communism?...

The first thing that is abolished under socialism/communism is the right to private property... NOT ONE OWNER has the right to ANY private property... So when they claim that "the workers own such and such, in fact it is THE STATE that owns it...

Originally posted by INDOMITABLE
...
The reason is because I stumbled upon a verse in the Bible that spoke about when you are in heaven you will receive everything you sow. It basically said when you sow, you will sow only for yourself. There are verses that speak very badly about someone who reaps where he doesn't sow.
...

Wow... Do you actually want a link, and the history of what socialists/communists have done to religious people?...

BTW, ANOK here talked about how "the only time when socialism/communism was successfuly implemented was during the RED revolution in Spain"...

As i posted before, ANOK is ignorant of even the events that led to the RED terror in Spain, and why Franco responded by killing the REDS and their sympathizers.

This article is dedicated to all the victims of communism worldwide.

For the major part of its history Spain has always been a land of Catholicism, it is the traditional land of the Reconquista, the Cid and the catholic kings (los Reyes catolicos). It is because of the Spanish empire that 500 million claim to be Catholics.

But this glorious Christian heritage and past is marked by a Dark period in which being Christian was a crime in the land that always was a fervent defender of Christianity… it is what is called the “Red terror”, another criminal record in the hall of fame of communism.

Between 1873 and 1931, Spain was having a political instability; the monarchy fell in 1873 leaving a place for the 1st Spanish republic and the 2nd in 1931. The political debate in the country was between defenders of the monarchy (conservatives) and communist all along with other left groups.
After the general election of 1936 tensions escalated between the two rivals and soon turned violent into clashes. Both parties fought each other in what was called later the Spanish civil war, but the atrocities committed by the communists (called Republicans in opposition to the right groups called nationalists) were by far barbaric and criminal.

The first year of the war witnessed the most terrible massacres: priests, nuns, clergy, monks, church attendants, bourgeoisies, politicians, industrialists …. Were slaughtered and murdered for the Christian faith. The catholic church of Spain lost 20 % of its clergy (6,832) in what was recognized to be the most severe persecution of Christians in the western world (de la Cueva 1998, p. 355)!!!

The death toll was not exactly known, it is estimated that between 38000 and 110000 were murdered by the communists (men of a Mancha). All this along with the destruction and burning of monasteries and churches all over the country.
...

christiangeopolitics.blogspot.com...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by krossfyter

sorry im not a communist. im here trying to learn. i realize from all this dialogue going on back and forth is that ANOK and the OP have behaved very civil towards everyone but most of the rest havent returned in kind. speaks volumes.

i just simply want people to respect people. that is it. i want people to live in harmony and in peace and i realize that the current system in america could be better if we had more bottom up approach. a government of the people, by the people, for the people. that is it.

listen, you are just too naive to understand what is happening. The implementation of socialism/communism is not going to make the world "enter into a time of peace and happiness...

I have tried to be civil with the like of ANOK, and he has shown his colors by writing in favor of the RED Terror in Spain.

People like you, who have never experienced or lived under communism, yet you want to claim that people like me know nothing about it, which is the reason why I am writting to you with more respect...

You see, those who like you have never seen what happens when socialism/communism thriumps, and think that "the sky will turn pink and everyone will be embracing everyone else with smiles on the lips" this is nothing more than fantastical lies...

The workers NEVER own ANYTHING under either socialism or Communism... How hard is it for you people to understand this even when you are given the statements from the founders of socialism/communism?...

The first thing that is abolished under socialism/communism is the right to private property... NOT ONE OWNER has the right to ANY private property... So when they claim that "the workers own such and such, in fact it is THE STATE that owns it...

edit on 16-6-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

and i respectfully comment to this post. please dont mistake my post as uncivil here.


your whole post/comments use the terms that ANOK and the OP have been telling you are wrong. Your definitions are wrong. I havent seen anyone successfully refute them on that. everyone keeps coming back using the terms that they are used to with the definitions they are used to which as ANOK and the OP have stated are from a true anti communist perspective.


im trying to be neutral here.

I have had too much vodka tonight to respond. I will concede tonight, as I am too drunk to coherently respond to anything. I will be back in the morning to respond, I promise. I wish to thank all whom have remained civil and apologize for being unfit at the moment to respond.

Originally posted by brukernavn

Thank you. Another major rebuttal to this person´s ignorant rant is that Obama is not even communist. Obama wants the state to control things, as far as I can see. Obama does not appear to want to make government smaller, which is anti-communist in itself.

To be honest, the "smaller government" angle ought to be a strong selling point for conservatives, because they want a much smaller government, too. Now I'm speaking here of American conservatives, who would like to see government rolled back and contained within the boundaries of the Constitution, not the neocon variety who seem to have taken over the Republicans - I know several conservatives, but not a single one who believes that a neocon is anything approaching "conservative". The track record we've seen from them is bigger government to administer ever-expanding Liberal social nets, and we can't see any difference between them and the Liberal Democrats, who are also agitating for more government and more social spending.

.

.

reply to post by nenothtu


That is what the far right said under Bush, but he expanded government like the US has never seen before. They seem to be for the expanding of government as long as it is their pary doing it. I will stop now, as I feel that I have drank more than is required for this thread. I wish to thank you for your contributions. I shall leave for the night now.

MVH,
Josef

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by krossfyter

im very appalled at how many of my fellow US citizens are ignorant of propaganda from the corporatist side or the side that put a smear/red scare on the term communism.

know your enemy.

There are fewer and fewer of us around who actually faced them as enemies to have any idea of what to "know". Most of us old farts see that as part of the problem of the propaganda war - that fewer and fewer have ever seen any of it as applied in the real world, and so are operating on theory alone. Some here lived it on the ground, and those seem to be running 3 to 1 against communism, but it must be acknowledged that there is that 25% that is FOR it.

Another part of the problem is that some who have seen it as applied are scratching their heads at the apparent changes in the theory of it. The theory that you all seem to be espousing now has little resemblance to what was preached about it in the 60's 70's and 80's, and by "preached" I don't mean by the capitalists, I mean by the socialists both overseas where the practical application made some headway, and right here in the US by self described Marxists, Socialists, and Communists. The last time I hit a Pathfinder bookstore was in the late 80's or early 90's, around the time of the Soviet collapse, and at that time they were still preaching Soviet-style communism, not this system that seems to be in play here.

It's all very confusing, which is why I'm trying to get a handle on it.

first of all thank you for the civil and respectful response.


maybe these anti communists some how were able to effectively counter the implications of the true communism that ANOK and the OP have mentioned that they distorted it.... and i mean SUCCESSFULLY DISTORTED IT... to the point that most in the west or in the US have believed falsely about what true communism really is.

that was the plan all along? maybe it leads to a more sinister and covert or cloaked form of slavery or fascism one where you dont believe you are in it. where the slavery they have you in feels like freedom. the suppose communism (faux communism perhaps) that was practiced in USSR/CUBA/CHINA etc. is a BLUNT form of slavery. maybe America/US is a subtle form. a soft form. a form that takes humans longer to respond and react effectively to because apathy is in the equation?




and to those trying to match me up/look me up on my post count and the year i joined..... check it...
i dont post much! i come here 90% to read and learn and 10% to post and give my 2cents. im a libra. i listen/hear more than i speak.

Originally posted by brukernavn

There has never been a country which practices communism (workers owning the means of production), hence I cannot have experienced such. Try harder next time.

The party line is always that the workers DO own the means of production, because the government owns them, and being generally described as a "democracy", the people own the government and run it, therefore owning everything the government owns.

That has always been the explanation for "worker ownership of the means of production" in every actual communist theoretical democracy that has so far ever existed. going by their logic, there's not a flaw in the theory of it, the flaw is in the implementation.

reply to post by nenothtu


A majority of people, including Americans, who join socialist/communist groups really have no idea of what they are doing.

The leaders who are trying to "revive" and interest in socialism and communism are using the same old tactics of lying, and sugar coating everything about socialism and communism to lure, and trap the unsuspecting.

The fact about socialism/communism is this. YOUR LIFE HAS NO VALUE WHATSOEVER. The state/the revolution come first, and the individuals should be more than willing to give their lives to the state/the revolution.

The people, and that is NO ONE, owns anything. If the state/the Communist Party gets a petition of a Communist Party member official who is higher ranking that he likes your house, you must surrender your house, and you will be sold a small house. Even if you parent, and grand-parents built the house by hand it doens't belong to you anymore. It belongs to the state/to the party/to the revolution... If the state/the Communist Party decides that another family should live in your house they can take it away and put you to live in a smaller house that you have to pay...

The people do not decide what is done with the infraestructure, and the goods, the state does, and it decides how much food people can eat, and what food you can eat, and of course you have to pay for all of it.

"the claim that Everyone is equal" means that you as a "good socialist/communist" will accept the hard changes that come unders socialist dictatorships. You will be forced to live CONSTANTLY under rationing of food and products. Most products and food produced in the land are sent, or sold to other nations where "the revolution is spread" which is why most people under socialist/communist regime don't get enough to eat.

You see, under socialism/communism, the "revolution and the party" are more important than ANY individual, and as such there is no such thing as individual rights.

You see, since under socialism/communism EVERYONE IS EQUALLY POOR, the state doesn't make enough money from the people, hence most harvests are used to sell abroad to countries like Canada where Cuban cigars can be bought in Canada for i don't know $50 -$70 U.S. dollars?... while they are sold for maybe $5 -$10 dollars, and THE STATE gets to keep that money.

Free education under socialist/communist regimes means that the students are indoctrinated/brainwashed into believing that socialism/communism is the greatest thing in the world, and that capitalists are everywhere trying to kill them all at any time...

In fact in Cuba there is no free education, and no free healthcare, simply because every children starting from 11 - 12 years old must work in hard labor camps for the state, and for free, EVERY SUMMER FOR THE REST OF HIS/HER LIFE until that person graduates and that "supposedly pays for education and healthcare"...

In Cuba there are two kinds of hospitals. There are the regular hospital for regular Cubans which lack pretty much everything, including medical gloves, you must bring your blankets, sheets, and pillow, because there are none in any hospital, or the ones you find you don't want to use.

Because "the revolution" must be spread around the world EVERYONE must accept the rations, which means you only get to eat the abre minimum, IF you have the money to pay for it, and even thn you won't be able to buy many things because they are very expensive.

I still have family in Cuba, two sisters, a grand-mother, cousins, aunts, and uncles, and my parents and I have to send them medicine, and clothing, as well as money whenever we are able so they can find ways to buy food. There are stores in Cuba where ONLY U.S. dollars allow you to buy things. In many of these stores most Cubans are not allowed, unless a family member visiting the island but who reside in another country takes them there.

Here are some videos about the condicions of hospitals in Cuba. The same things happens in EVERY socialist/communist nation...

WARNING SOME OF THESE IMAGES ARE OF REAL PEOPLE WITH WOUNDS AND THE CONDITIONS OF HOW THEY LIVE IN HOSPITALS IN CUBA FOR REGULAR CUBANS.

These videos for the most part are in Spanish, but you can see the REAL conditions of Cubans under a REAL socialist/communist regime.







This video shows the bad conditions on the outside of the Miguel Enriquez Hospital, in Havana. Another Cuban hospital for regular Cubans.