Originally posted by Matt1951
reply to post by Drunkenparrot
Where do I start with such nonsense -
Lets look at the J20. By the way, they have two flying now. Yes, they might end up using Russian engines.
en.wikipedia.org...
J20 can supercruise, JSF cannot.
Pulling a bit of a bait and switch aren't you? Speaking of nonsense, what happened to your claim of China's superior space program? Or the J20 program
becoming operational before the F-35?
Somebody has fallen for Bill Sweetman and Carlo Kopp's nonsensical anti F-35 media crusade.
First off, define supercruise... ? Here's some news that is lost on the masses,
supercruise is an arbitrary marketing term.
The U.S. DOD defined super cruise as sustained speed <1.5m with dry thrust as part of the requirements for the ATF program.
Under that definition only the F-22 and Eurofighter (with a clean configuration)meet the criteria, the
projected J20 performance does not.
Using the definition of supercruise being sustained speed of <1m using unaugmented thrust, the J20 supercruises as does the F-35, F-16, Mig-31 and a
dozen other aircraft going back to the BAC Lightning in 1954.
The J20 has yet to fly supersonic in its current underpowered configuration much less supercruise with engines that do not yet exist.
Take a moment and read through this thread, it discusses the issue in some detail...
Getting the F-35 to supercruise
Here is another discussion clarifying the definition of
supercruise....
Gripen (NG) + EJ200 =
Supercruise???
Originally posted by Matt1951
There have been many discussions on JSF both at Aviation Week (on line blog is Ares), and dodbuzz.com. The failings of JSF are too well known.
There are amateur blogs all over the internet both pro and con. Try reading what the real world pilots, engineers and mechanics write on reputable
websites where posters credentials are vetted and the fanboy nonsense gets weeded out like the
F-16.net Forum
Originally posted by Matt1951
Are you saying China has not flown the J-20? Where do you get such delusional ideas?
No, I am very familiar with what little information is publicly available regarding the J20 and did not say the prototype had not flown. I said that
at this juncture the J20 is a prototype with unknown performance because China is having serious engineering problems developing an engine much less
developing a flight tested, operational production airframe by 2018.
Originally posted by Matt1951
Those are 60 mistake JSF jets. They are not combat ready. They would have to be substantially reworked at great expense in the future, or they will be
scrap in the Nevada desert. Has JSF ever been able to fly supersonic yet?
You are demonstrating that you are short on facts and full of flawed opinion. The F-35A's first supersonic flight was in 2008 while both the F-35B and
C made their first supersonic test flights last year.
60 mistakes to be reworked at great expense or scrapped in the Nevada desert?Seriously?
For starters, the Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group boneyard is based on Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Arizona. Secondly, Eglin AFB has
received 25 production (i.e. combat ready) F-35 airframes as of last month.
Again, your hyperbole is not borne out by the facts.
Pentagon's
Best-Kept Secret: F-35 Fighter Is Progressing Nicely
If you pay any attention to media coverage of the F-35 fighter program, then you know the Pentagon’s biggest weapons program is “troubled”
(to use the favored adjective of reporters). Flight tests are lagging, costs are skyrocketing, and overseas partners are beginning to get cold feet.
So the Joint Strike Fighter, as it used to be called, is looking like another black eye for the Pentagon’s fouled up acquisition system, right?
Wrong. The reality is that for the third straight year flight tests are ahead of schedule, the cost to build each plane is falling fast, and
international partners are so enthused that new customers are getting in line for the F-35 on a regular basis (South Korea will be next). So how come
you don’t know any of this? The reason you don’t know it is that political appointees have decided they can score points with Congress by
attacking their own program, and national media always lead with the most sensational information....
...There has been a lot of talk lately about the dangers of producing F-35s before testing is completed, because if problems are found then planes
already built will supposedly require costly fixes. So far, though, the danger seems to be mainly theoretical: Wikipedia says the price-tag for
correcting problems uncovered in testing is $1.3 billion, which is less than one-half of one-percent of the production cost for 3,000 domestic and
foreign fighters. Another concern has been delays in software; however, as of today 95 percent of the plane’s airborne software is either
being used in flight tests or being tested in labs. No show-stoppers in sight, either in the hardware or in the software.
How well is F-35 testing going?
Originally posted by Matt1951
I was working as a design engineer on parts of JSF in 1991. 21 years later, how close to combat deployment are we? Does the word Vaporware come to
mind??
Forgive my skepticism about your claim however the JAST program wasn't created until 1993 and prototype production awards were not granted until
1996.
Perhaps you are confused about your dates? Or perhaps you are disingenuously trying to craft an fallacious appeal to authority?
It also just so happens that I have some familiarity with aerospace engineering, maybe you could go into a bit more detail about which JAST systems
you participated in?
Originally posted by Matt1951
This article says J-20 is two years ahead of schedule.
www.wired.com...
"Last year, former Defense Secretary Robert Gates was greeted in Beijing by China’s experimental stealth jet buzzing over his head. Gates didn’t
sweat it: He proclaimed that the J-20 wouldn’t be ready until at least 2020. Oops...
....Helvey speculated that the Chinese military keeps its research, foreign military acquisitions and nuclear modernization off its books. The report
estimates that China’s declared $106 billion annual military budget is really more like $120 to $180 billion.
Your article is a blog written by a twenty-something year old laymen with no aerospace credentials parroting nonsense from Carlo Kopp's Air Power
Australia F-35 hit pieces.
Spencer Ackerman
Best quote from your source....
The new anticipated timetable for the J-20 hardly augurs the end of American military dominance.
Regardless, the quote is "no sooner than 2018,” the essence is that in a current best case scenario, serial production of the J20 beginning in 2018
is not squadron service in 2018.
The
ANNUAL REPORT TO CONGRESS Military and Security Developments Involving the People’s
Republic of China 2012 cited by the author of the wired blog does not seem overly concerned with the J20. Speaking of defense spending...
Two years ahead of schedule? China has only been marginally successful fabricating their SU-27 clone and have failed at every attempt to produce a
truly indigenous competitive fighter design thus far.
If you want to believe the Sino aerospace industry is suddenly capable of producing a true generation 5 aircraft, something that the more capable
Russian aerospace industry has been struggling with for some time, feel free.
Engine troubles stall stealth jet program/ China seeking help with keeping
aircraft operational
China’s ambitions to develop reliable fifth generation jet fighters may be hampered by technology deficiencies in developing jet engines that
can provide reliable, sustained performance over long periods before having to be overhauled...
....Right now, the Chinese are relying on the Russians for much of their advanced jet engine technology, but they, too, historically have had
similar problems.
Many of the aircraft China has today come from Russia, complete with technology deficiencies that will make it a challenge for China to develop
reliable engines for their J-15 and newest stealth, fifth generation fighter, the J-20.
Already, there are indications that production of the J-20 has been slowed.
China’s New
Project 718/J-20 Fighter: Development outlook and strategic implications
–China’s J-20 fighter has the potential to be a formidable air combat system in the Asia-Pacific region,but a number of technical
hurdles will need to be overcome before mass production can commence....
...A Russian aerospace expert recently quoted in Huanqiu Shibao saysChina’s inability to produce world-class high-performance jet engines will be
a major barrier to large-scale production of the J-20 and in the meantime will hinder China’s ability to full test the airframe’s capability
in the ways that it could with engines making 35,000-40,000 lbs of thrust like the AL-41 and U.S. F119 engines can.
China's J-20 stealth
fighter: 'design is 25 years old'
Experts, however, are warning against drawing conclusions on the basis of the photographs.
Douglas Barrie, an aerospace expert at the International Institute of Strategic Studies, noted that the J20's airframe resembled that of an abandoned
Russian prototype, the MiG 1.42.
"I'm not sure that its even much of an impressive airframe," said Richard Aboulafia, another analyst. "It looks like something that might have been
designed in 1985."
For the most part, China's combat aircraft programme has lagged behind its competitors in the west and Russia.
China's fourth-generation combat jet, the J-10, appeared in 2006 – but experts say it compares with western aircraft that went into production two
decades ago. Beijing has also struggled to develop the Shenyang J-15 carrier-borne jet, reverse-engineered from the Russian-made Sukhoi 33.
China's fifth-generation fighter programme, experts say, faces several critical challenges as it moves forward from prototype stage to actual
production.
Clash of Stealth Fighters
It is still in the phase of research & development, stated Maj Gen Zhu Heping of the PLA AF while speaking to reporters on 03 March 2011 in
Beijing. As to the expected timeframe by which the aircraft would be finally ready for induction into China’s airpower, Maj Gen Zhu said
“there’s still some time required” and “is difficult to say”.
Deputy Commander of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force, General He Weirong said in November 2009 that he expected the J-20 to be operational in
2017–2019.However China might have problems meeting its production requirements, as it has several other jet fighter projects in production...
...Russian military commentator Ilya Kramnik conjectures that China is still 10 to 15 years behind the United States and Russia in fighter
technology and may not be able to manufacture all the advanced composite materials, avionics and sensor packages needed for such aircraft, and could
instead turn to foreign suppliers.
While Chief of the Air Staff of the Indian Air Force Pradeep Vasant Naik has suggested that the J-20 is entirely reverse engineered with no Chinese
R&D involved, and questioned if the practice was ethical .
Not everybody shares your and Carlo Kopp's confidence and enthusiasm for the J20.
edit on 14-6-2012 by Drunkenparrot because: (no reason given)
