A $20 Theft and the state of today's youth. A personal experience.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
I actually doubt that part of the story, to be honest. And it might be a bit dishonest, but it's still not theft.

Thanks for answering. It's nice to know that if I accidentally leave my wallet at the juice bar, you have no problem sorting through it, taking whatever contents as your own and telling yourself you didn't steal it, because I obviously didn't want it because I left it there. Amazing!

Even if these horrible 12 year olds were just waiting for him to walk away without his cash, he still walked away and left it there. That is a sign that it was unwanted.

And you believe that twisted logic? The $20 was "unwanted", since the man got it out of his bank account and left it in the machine, he "didn't really want it". :shk:

So I've answered your question, now please answer mine. Have you ever "stolen" change from a change slot?

This thread isn't about taking change out of a change slot. I have seen many threads on that idea, though.

No, this thread is about exactly that. The OP got change at the self service aisle, and left the change in the change slot. This is EXACTLY what this thread is about.

Why do you keep trying to twist it into something it's not? We're not talking about your lost wallet, we're talking about change in a CHANGE SLOT. You're trying to twist the argument into something I didn't say and don't believe, because you do not have a logical response. This is childish and pathetic.

Please answer the question or kindly STFU. You've done nothing but try to twist the situation to suit your argument, and have refused to answer my legitimate and sincere questions. If you've ever taken a quarter out of a change slot you did EXACTLY what these girls did. Exactly.

So have you done it, and if so, why are you such a hypocrite?

Jeez.

Ok, let's change this around a bit. See how you feel.

You are in the wild, you just found yourself, after a long and exhausting effort, some food to eat, as you gather it up, you failed to pick up a few pieces, but carry on your way. Little did you know 2 hungry sisters were peaking through the bushes at you while you did this, and quickly rushed out and picked up the left behind food.

You returned after seeing your stash a bit short, only to find it gone.

Now really are we going to ban them from the forest? it is stealing, but it's the same brain's wired instinct to take advantage of situations.

I am not saying it is ok, since this was food and that was money, but money buys food, and at 12, 20.00USD buys a lot, it's simply temptation over punishment / risk. It's what's taught on T.V., on the News, in School and even sports. Our whole Human way of life revolved around taking advantages of other people. I've said this in another thread before, but in any group of people there is at least one who is there to use that said group for their own personal gain.

I think in a weird way, it's an evolutionary trait that formed to combat greed. Survival of the fittest, verse survival by exploitation, scavengers do it and no one locks them up, they do however get killed if caught, but is how they have lived in the animal kingdom.

Sorry you lost your money. I'm glad you got it back though.

I do have to agree with some of the other comments though. If the kids really saw that you had left it behind (they were standing behind you and actually saw that you left it and didn't say anything) that's different.
But I kind of agree with those that say you left it and they found it. At 12 I would have probably kept it too if I didn't know who it belonged to.

I had a similar story to havok as well. As a kid I once found a $20 on the floor in the classroom and turned it in to the teacher. The only thing she said was something like, "Oh good now I have grocery shopping money." So I may be a bit jaded on turning in money in a way.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by TinkerHaus

 

the lack of logic, responsibility and basic couth in the responses to this story simply amazes me.

When you ABANDON something, you no longer own it. When you leave your change in the machine you are ABANDONING it.

this statement says a lot.
and here's a question for you ... if abandoning something means you no longer own it, then why does every commercial location feature a "lost and found" ????

so, if i leave/forget my sunglasses at dinner, they are no longer mine ??
if i forget a child (any child) in a public bathroom, they are no longer my responsibility ??
if i leave an extra $5 at the Sunpass station (toll booth) for the next 5 cars and you are next in line, do you think you have a right to "claim" my $4 change/pre-paid fee for the next 4 cars ?? i did abandon it, right ??

gooooolllly, you folks sure make me less interested in being a "good" person.

My morals are no looser than yours, I assure you.. I'm just more honest. =]

To answer your questions, because I don't expect out of others what I am not willing to do myself, and also because I try my best to not be a hypocrite..

If you forget your sunglasses, they are most likely no longer yours. If it is a restaurant or similar establishment, I imagine someone would most likely turn them in, and you could get them back. But from the time you left them until you get them back, no.. They are not yours anymore. And that's YOUR fault. If you left them in a park or at a beach, I wouldn't expect anyone to track you down or turn them in. That's what you get for leaving your crap lying all over.

If you leave your child somewhere (abandon them) then yes, you deserve to lose your child.

If you leave $5 at a toll booth, with explicit instructions for the toll operator to use the money for the next people in line, it would be theft to take the change. If you just left it there without taking your change, I believe the toll operator has the right to the change. I'm sure they would agree. Let's call it a tip.

Let me ask you the same question as I have asked others, funny how you ALL refuse to answer it because it would expose you as hypocrites.

Have you ever taken a quarter you found in an arcade machine? Or in a phone booth? Or on the ground at the carwash? If you have you are guilty of EXACTLY what you are complaining about.

Now you think I'm a horrible person because I think unclaimed change in a coin or bill slot is up for grabs..

You should know I donate my time to a local food co-op, and help deliver food to elderly people who cannot come and get it for themselves.

In the winter I volunteer at a local shelter called The Road Home, where people are temporarily housed until they can get back on their feet.

I have fostered more dogs than I can count, and finally stopped because it was taking an emotional toll on myself and my wife..

So please, erase all of these situations you goons have tried to pin on me. I'm not advocating stealing someone's dog, or wallet, or car.. I'm saying that when you find change in the change slot it's ok to keep it. Someone left it there, it obviously wasn't THAT important to them.

Have a nice day, you funny people. =]

Interesting how people seem to create their own version of law. A person has the right but not the obligation to give up their claim.

Originally posted by roadgravel
Interesting how people seem to create their own version of law. A person has the right but not the obligation to give up their claim.

Funny how your cited law totally agrees with me.

A landowner has superior claim over a find made within the non-public areas of his property, so if a customer finds lost property in the public area of a store, the customer has superior claim to the lost property over that of the store-owner, but if the customer finds the lost property in the non-public area of that store, such as an area marked "Employees Only," the store-owner will have superior claim, as the customer was trespassing when he found it

So, finding "lost property" in the "public area" of the store, ie, CHANGE SLOTS.. The customer can apparently claim the property.

So this is basically a "finders keepers" law. Thanks for proving my point with legalspeak. =D

This site goes over the various possible scenarios and says that it's legally ok to keep the money found in the change slot in the situation described by the OP.

So these little girls didn't "steal" - they simply took forgotten money out of a change slot.

reply to post by TinkerHaus


In typical ATS fashion, you ignored part of the material.

Under common law principles, the finder of a misplaced object has a duty to turn it over to the owner of the premises, on the theory that the true owner is likely to return to that location to search for his misplaced item. If the true owner does not return within a reasonable time (which varies considerably depending on the circumstances), the property becomes that of the owner of the premises

Then there was the part you quoted is showing that when unclaimed the finder, not the store, gets ownership. Doesn't mean the rightful owner cannot claim it.

This seems to be mislaid, not lost property...

reply to post by 74Templar



Your title makes it sound like its "todays" kids that have issues with stealing.

This could have easily happened 4 decades ago,or 100 years ago with a bill dropped from a pocket, and it could have been an adult that took it as well.

Children make mistakes, especially children who have little to begin with.

Originally posted by roadgravel
reply to post by TinkerHaus

 

In typical ATS fashion, you ignored part of the material.

Under common law principles, the finder of a misplaced object has a duty to turn it over to the owner of the premises, on the theory that the true owner is likely to return to that location to search for his misplaced item. If the true owner does not return within a reasonable time (which varies considerably depending on the circumstances), the property becomes that of the owner of the premises

Then there was the part you quoted is showing that when unclaimed the finder, not the store, gets ownership. Doesn't mean the rightful owner cannot claim it.

This seems to be mislaid, not lost property...

edit on 6/11/2012 by roadgravel because: (no reason given)

I didn't ignore anything. You're ignoring that at the time it was found by the girls, it was unclaimed.

I know the OP claims they knew it was his, but that is something I would have to see proof of before I accepted it.

Kids make mistakes and sometimes they steal.

When they're caught they take the consequences and hopefully the lesson is learnt. It happens all the time.

You're lucky you got your money back and those girls are probably lucky they were caught, i.e. they might have gone on to do it again and the punishment might have been far worse than the little humiliation they got.

Would be good for them if they got a walloped backside at home too, or a clout around the lugs. Where I come from that usually sorts things, but these days a lot of parents are too scared of big nanny and big brother to be proper parents.

reply to post by TinkerHaus
who mentioned morals ??
i specifically said responsibility, basic couth (courtesy) and logic.
your morals are your own, no need to twist them on my account.

i seriously doubt more honest or you wouldn't claim the item was "abandoned".

ummmm, the first question (and most important, imho) you casually avoided, why?
why does EVERY commercial location feature a "lost and found" ??

and boy o'boy are you wrong. lost is lost, not abandoned or no longer desired.
who taught you that what is mine is also yours if you say so ??

fyi, i've "lost" sunglasses from the roof of a car (not mine) only to be honked at to have them returned.
fyi, i've returned more "lost items" (including cash) than i've ever lost, myself.
i am no hypocrite, i just expect to be treated as i treat others.

If you leave your child somewhere (abandon them) then yes, you deserve to lose your child.

so, if i leave your child somewhere then you deserve to lose your child too, right ?
afterall, when you left them with me, you must have abandoned them or forfeited responsibility, right ?

a tip ?? so, you would claim you didn't hear my request and keep it as a tip ??
how is that NOT stealing?

sorry, i didn't see this question previously but since you asked me ...

Have you ever taken a quarter you found in an arcade machine? Or in a phone booth?

without asking those around if it was theirs, first ?? nope, never.

Or on the ground at the carwash?

nope, don't use car washes.

If you have you are guilty of EXACTLY what you are complaining about.

nice try but that wouldn't apply to me.

matter of fact, a few years ago, an 8yr old neighbor laid claim to $1000 worth of fishing poles from our shed.
yes, i called the police, yes they were returned, yes the child was threatened with arrest and the reason he gave was ...
"the shed door was open and they have too many."

so no, i don't and won't agree with you as theft is theft.
i was raised with this simple instruction ... if it is NOT yours, do not touch it, period.

"finders keepers" only applied to public locations such as the street, a parking lot or even
in some cases where "lost and found" was distributed after a period of time (usually 60 days or so if no claim)
and yes, i have even returned dimes and quarters from pay phones.

i never said anything about anyone being a bad person.
your delusions are your own.
why would you care what i think about your decision to steal that which is not yours ??

good on you for your charity but i'd have to ask ...
as you deliver food, are you tempted to collect the dollar laying on the counter near the door
without asking if it is meant for you ?

what you do for others is not as important as what you do TO others.
i am surprised that even needs to be pointed out.
what IF ... that $20 was all the money that person had for a whole month?
what IF ... that $20 was intended to buy food for your charity work ??
what IF ... that $20 was the co-payment for needed medicine for your children ??

the point here is ... if it is NOT yours, it is not yours, or theirs in this case.
sad to say, the simple courtesy that was once normally extended to other people has become extinct.

reply to post by TinkerHaus


"Under common law principles, the finder of a misplaced object has a duty to turn it over to the owner of the premises, on the theory that the true owner is likely to return to that location to search for his misplaced item."

And in this case he owner called shortly afterward to try to claim the property.

reply to post by Honor93


You need to learn to read. =]

You either have horrible comprehension or you are doing it on purpose. Either way it's funny.

And I don't believe you for one minute that you haven't found and kept a quarter before. If you find a dime in a payphone you seriously ask people if it was their dime? I find this hilarious too.

You're silly. If you leave your daughter at a babysitter, that is one thing. When you leave your daughter in a store either on accident or on purpose, that is abandonment, and you are an unfit parent. If you've ever done this you should give up your kids to someone who remembers to get their change and doesn't throw a tissy fit when they forget and suffer the consequences. =]


About a month ago I left a single bag of groceries in a cart. It contained some organic milk, a small bag of oranges and some other small items. I realized I had forgotten it when I got home and unloaded the other groceries. I rushed back to the store and the carts had already been taken from the corral and returned to the store. I went inside the store and asked if they had seen the bag, and they said it definitely wasn't in any of the carts that came in from the parking lot..

So someone took my milk and oranges, that's what I get for not paying attention.

reply to post by 74Templar


Our children are a reflection of OUR world, our teachings/influence/love or lack thereof.

Every negative they may show at time X is a mirroring of a much larger problem. Part of being adults is claiming responsibility.

Nothing has changed since Ancient Greece. Kids still do stupid stuff, some people are far more honest than others and everyone still blames the "youth" for everything.

All we need now is a Hemlock soft-drink. It would be no trick at all to get the average poster to drink it.

reply to post by TinkerHaus
since you are ignoring the obvious, let's spell it out ... from the legalease quoted above

the finder of a misplaced object has a duty to turn it over to the owner of the premises

in this case, the "finder" was 2, 12yr old, traveling alone & unsupervised, girls.
who found a "misplaced object" ... misplaced because it should have been in the owners possession.
these "finders" had a duty (notice i said, courtesy) but the law says "duty" to turn it in to the owner of the premises, not leave with it.

does that help you understand how this was a "theft", plain and simple ??

reply to post by TinkerHaus
whether you believe me or not is irrelevant, you asked, i answered honestly.
i comprehend your illogical excuses just fine, i happen to disagree with you.

guess what ?? children who lived through the 70s, often share similar stories cause we know what's it's like to be without, your generation ?? not so much.
we understand how important that dime or quarter may be and besides, it didn't belong to us hence it's not a common belief to keep it.

you are still avoiding the question, you dance well but answer the dang thing.
why do commercial establishments bother to have "lost and found" if what is found automatically belongs to someone else ?

i didn't attack your kids, don't make the mistake of attacking mine

actually, if the store re-stocked your "cold" items, that is standard practice.
IF you kept your receipt, you could have re-claimed them
(even if someone else walked off with them)
this, i've done myself.
many grocery stores have security cams in the parking lot too.
if you let it drop there, that was your decision, it could have had a different outcome.

Interesting Thread....honestly I see both sides of some of the issues being discussed by others in this thread.
The "Right" thing to do if you wittness someone drop or forget something is to make them aware and return thier property.

If you find something in a business, probably the best thing to do is to leave your # with that business and let them know if someone calls about the item you found they can contact you to get thier property...if it is not claimed, it's yours.

I've noticed something very "devine" when it comes to "karma" concerning being honest, and whenever I have done the "wrong" thing in my life, it ALWAYS comes back to bite me. Once I went to the hardware store and bought a bunch of plants and some paint, I had put the paint on the bottom of the cart and when I got out to my car I realized the checker had not charged me for it, the paint was around $20. I'm not proud to say I did not go back in the store and pay for it...

The following day I was painting and sure enough that paint can tipped over on the carpet, it cost $125 to call out a carpet cleaner, and it was a big mess....I do believe that was my karma for "stealing" that paint.

On the other side of the coin, I have had really good "karma" , I once lost or had stolen, not sure which actually, $500 cash in an envolope sticking out of my purse "disappear" in the grocery store. I had just withdrawn the money to go on a trip to Lake Tahoe....well I still went on the trip as it was required business trip, but had no "fun" money...lol...this was going to be my 1st time ever going "gambling", with some other co-workers after our meetings.

I remember thinking...."Ok God, I hope whoever found or stole that money really needed it" ....I ended up winning $700 on that trip, starting out playing slots with $20...and came home with $500.....weird huh?

It's always best to do the "right" thing, and be honest.....LOL.....however I would take the million in cash thrown out of a car that was from the FED and meant for Monsanto....I would use the money for "good"......

reply to post by 74Templar


Well when your society tells you the only way people can be good is if they hear a voice in their head telling them they will go to hell for an eternity as punishment... what do you expect.

Lie to your kids their whole life about the origins of morality.. and when that little farce is over you have ignorant little whelps that see no reason not to do horrible things.

Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by TinkerHaus

 

whether you believe me or not is irrelevant, you asked, i answered honestly.
i comprehend your illogical excuses just fine, i happen to disagree with you.

guess what ?? children who lived through the 70s, often share similar stories cause we know what's it's like to be without, your generation ?? not so much.
we understand how important that dime or quarter may be and besides, it didn't belong to us hence it's not a common belief to keep it.

you are still avoiding the question, you dance well but answer the dang thing.
why do commercial establishments bother to have "lost and found" if what is found automatically belongs to someone else ?

i didn't attack your kids, don't make the mistake of attacking mine

actually, if the store re-stocked your "cold" items, that is standard practice.
IF you kept your receipt, you could have re-claimed them
(even if someone else walked off with them)
this, i've done myself.
many grocery stores have security cams in the parking lot too.
if you let it drop there, that was your decision, it could have had a different outcome.

Not all commercial institutions have "lost and found"

It's offensive you would assume my age and what I had or didn't have growing up. You don't know anything about me.

The store hadn't restocked my items, someone got them in the parking lot because I was a dumbass and left them. If you had read my post you would have seen that I went into the store and asked them.

That's what you get for being an idiot. I was guilty of being in a hurry and not paying attention, and I bought someone else organic milk and oranges. And as you may know, organic food ain't cheap. I felt no need to inconvenience the grocery store to go over their CCTV footage and find out who profited off of my mistake.. That is burdonsome and the cost of labor would have been more than the amount the milk and oranges cost me.

It's laughable to me that you consider taking a dime out of a payphone change slot theft, but you think it's ok to make the supermarket give me groceries that I lost due to my own mistakes.. That's not theft? In my opinion, that is more dishonest and profiteering than taking the $20 out of the change slot.

My point is accepting personal responsibility. If you leave something somewhere, no on should have any responsibility to return it to you. If you find change in a change slot of a cash machine I see no reason to attempt to track down the owner. Chances are the first dishonest person you come across will claim it.

If I found a wallet full of personal details and cash I would return it. If I found an extra $20 while getting my change out of the self-service aisle, I probably wouldn't.