A $20 Theft and the state of today's youth. A personal experience.

You say you would keep $50 from an ATM, and you justify that by saying the owner of the note wasn't within 5 feet of you..

You do realize that it would have been much easier for the bank to locate the person who left the money than it was for the grocery store to review security footage and find your missing $20?

The bank could have just checked the last ATM transaction before you found the cash, had you turned it into them. The grocery store had to review CCTV footage and track people down. You created 3 hours of extra work for this grocery store for a measly $20, when you would keep a $50 out of an ATM?

I'm sorry, where I'm from we call this hypocrisy.

You lost the money by your own inability to focus on what it is that you are doing; it actually could have been something valuable rather than money.

Seriously, the girls will use this lesson they just received, the question is how will they use this lesson? There is a chance they are wiser and smarter for it and the next time they will not be so obvious or they will know that cameras are there and play it out in a more clandestine manner. I can say this much, those girls hate you for having put this temptation in their reach and for causing all of their problems.

Solution: Call the Store and ask to be in contact with the girls' mother and then take that 20 and go treat them to icecream for doing the right thing and confessing, maybe next time they will grab the 20 and go directly to the manager rather than pocket it as a windfall. Take advantage of a good and wholesome lesson, you are part of their village and I would say just as responsible for building good character. Too often there are not any adult role-models to show the youngsters that there are other ways of handling these temptations.

Personally, had it been an adult, they would have simply denied it and then it would have to escalate to the police or other such measure. 20 bucks to make a criminal, and it wasn't theft, it was the OP's irresponsibility, and now the girls in question have been ridiculed and will never allow anyone to put them in such a position again, they will be smarter for it, but will they be the wiser?

reply to post by 74Templar

Originally posted by 74Templar
Sadly the Store Manager informed me this is not the only occurence, they have had numerous thefts from the self-serves, including a middle-aged man who stole $40 that another customer left behind. This one did involve the Police, and charges were filed.

This makes me wonder the most, above all else, what is the youth of today coming to?

How can you blame this on "youth", when you talk of a middle-aged man doing the same thing? There are people of all ages who would steal the money and people of all ages who would return it. Don't blame this on youth based on your ONE example... It isn't about young people, it's about people who steal money, at any age.

reply to post by 74Templar


It's too bad they were not taught to quickly inform the other person that they forgot their change or something.

I have had people pick up money that I dropped and give it back to me.

Not everyone is a thief.

I found someone's cell phone once and returned it to them because their name was in the phone itself.

I love people rationalizing theft.

We call ourselves Hunter / Gatherer, but that is not the whole story. We are and always have been and always will be the scavenger. A party of hunters armed with spears watch the Lions make the kill and then march forward with leveled spears to claim the spoils.

When dealing with $20.00 we can make a rational decision.

So lets play a game!

Your walking along on a dark side street in your heavy raincoat. No cameras, no people. A car comes screaming around the corner and the occupants throw out a bag. The next thing the Police car rounds the corner in hot pursuit. You wait until the area is clear and being a good citizen you pick up the bag and take it home. The bag has 1 million dollars in it. The bag is marked "US Federal Reserve" and paperwork inside show that the money belongs to Monsanto! You listen to the news to find out that the money is not traceable.

Alright, all you honest people, would you really give it up or would the scavenger inside all of us make one of a thousand reasons to keep it.

P

reply to post by pheonix358


Theft is taking something from someone. This was not theft - This was taking change that was left in a change slot.

No one is rationalizing theft..We're helping other to realize what the definition of 'theft' is.

reply to post by TinkerHaus

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
Theft is taking something from someone. This was not theft - This was taking change that was left in a change slot.

No one is rationalizing theft..We're helping other to realize what the definition of 'theft' is.

That is TOTALLY rationalizing theft! Are you serious? Stealing is taking something that rightfully belongs to someone else. If someone took my dog from my yard, because they didn't take him FROM ME, it's not theft?

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
Sorry, I don't think it's "stealing" if someone forgets their change.

This is your fault, not the 12 year old's. Sure, it may have been dishonest if they knew it was yours, as you claim.. But it's possible they didn't even make that connection. They are 12.

I'm going to tell my kids tonight that if they find change in the change slot of a candy machine, soda machine, payphone, self-service cash register, etc, it's theirs. If some fool is going to leave their change I don't think anyone else has a responsibility to track them down and give it back.

As we used to say when I was a wee little guy: Finders keepers.


I personally think you should track down these 12 year olds and apologize for your actions that caused them to get in trouble. YOU left the money, and once you left the premises it was no longer your money, in my opinion. This was NOT stealing.

I'm half way inbetween your position and what he relayed. I think the kids went through unnecessary harm and that banning from the store where they shop with their mother and probably one of their main regular outings is terribly wrong.

And they would have gone through real trauma over this. They should have simply handed it in at the desk with an apology note, and walked away, then the mother could have used it as a learning moment to discuss with them that finding something that is left in wide open is not the same thing as finding something you know someone forgot, you remind them, or run fast and hand it to them, or turn it in at the desk if they disappeared from sight.

Because kids do lots of things, and life is a learning experience but it shouldn't be throwing a sledge hammer at them for something minor and borderline.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by TinkerHaus

 

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
Theft is taking something from someone. This was not theft - This was taking change that was left in a change slot.

No one is rationalizing theft..We're helping other to realize what the definition of 'theft' is.

That is TOTALLY rationalizing theft!

Are you serious? Stealing is taking something that rightfully belongs to someone else. If someone took my dog from my yard, because they didn't take him FROM ME, it's not theft?

That's the thing you're not realizing.. At that point the money doesn't 'belong' to someone else. They left it in a public space. When you ABANDON something, either intentionally or by mistake, it is no longer yours.

There is a huge difference from taking a dog out of a yard, a dog that obviously belongs to someone, and taking forgotten change out of a change machine. If you can't see the difference.. Well there's no point in even talking about it with you. I am not advocating taking something from someone's personal property whatsoever. What I am doing is saying it's ok to take abandoned change, abandoned cars, abandoned anything.

If you go to wash your car and find a quarter on the ground, do you pocket it or do you search for the person who dropped the quarter? If you were using a payphone and found a quarter in the change slot, do you pocket the quarter or do you attempt to track down the person who left it there? If you were playing your favorite arcade game at the arcade, and found a quarter in the slot, would you walk around the arcade asking the patrons who lost a quarter?

This isn't rationalizing theft. Theft is STEALING.. This is simply taking what was left by someone else. When you ABANDON something, you no longer own it. When you leave your change in the machine you are ABANDONING it.

Of course if I found a $20 in the change slot I would turn it over to the store.. I have my own money. But If someone else decided to keep it, I wouldn't accuse them of theft. I believe they would be acting within their rights to pocket the money if the 'owner' wasn't concerned enough about it to keep it in their possession.

Since when is a store a 'public' place. It is a private business.

So any item on a store shelf, unattended, is free for the taking? No one at the cash drawer, free money?

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
That's the thing you're not realizing.. At that point the money doesn't 'belong' to someone else. They left it in a public space. When you ABANDON something, either intentionally or by mistake, it is no longer yours.

So, when I accidentally left my wallet on the counter at the juice bar, it was no longer mine?

There is a huge difference from taking a dog out of a yard, a dog that obviously belongs to someone, and taking forgotten change out of a change machine.

The girls were seen in the video, waiting for the OP to leave and then they approached and took the money. The money obviously belonged to the OP and the girls KNEW that.

If you go to wash your car and find a quarter on the ground, do you pocket it or do you search for the person who dropped the quarter?

No. but if I see them drop it, I don't wait for them to leave and then go scoop it up. I tell them they dropped it.

Originally posted by roadgravel
Since when is a store a 'public' place. It is a private business.

So any item on a store shelf, unattended, is free for the taking? No one at the cash drawer, free money?

Sure, it's a privately owned public area. The change slot is definitely a PUBLIC area, although it is privately owned. How many people pull change out of that slot each day? It's ridiculous to assume that your forgotten change should be safeguarded until you have the time to come and get it back.

You left it, you lost it, no one STOLE anything from you.

You guys are making ridiculous, illogical comparisons..

So please, answer my questions: You are at a car wash and find a quarter in the wash bay, do you keep it? You are at a payphone and find a quarter in the slot, do you keep it? You are at an arcade and find a quarter in the change slot, do you keep it?

You keep making bad comparisons while refusing to address these very apt comparisons. Please let me know what you do with the quarter you found in the payphone? If you have EVER kept it, you should stop talking about how these girls stole something - because you have done the same thing!

The amount doesn't matter, if you take 25 cents or $20 dollars out of a change slot you have committed the same act. Please answer. =]

reply to post by TinkerHaus


You're the one that keeps bringing up the situation where the "thief" has no idea who the owner of the money is.

In the OP, the "thief" knew who the owner was.

So, if you SEE someone leave $20 and you wait till they leave (knowing it's accidental) and then take it, it's not stealing?

Please answer. =]

.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by TinkerHaus

 

You're the one that keeps bringing up the situation where the "thief" has no idea who the owner of the money is.

In the OP, the "thief" knew who the owner was.

So, if you SEE someone leave $20 and you wait till they leave (knowing it's accidental) and then take it, it's not stealing?

Please answer. =]

.

edit on 6/11/2012 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)

I actually doubt that part of the story, to be honest. And it might be a bit dishonest, but it's still not theft. Even if these horrible 12 year olds were just waiting for him to walk away without his cash, he still walked away and left it there. That is a sign that it was unwanted.

So I've answered your question, now please answer mine. Have you ever "stolen" change from a change slot? If you encountered a quarter today in a pay phone, would you keep it?

No more childish games, please answer. =]

If you ask me, accepting food stamps or unemployment is more of a THEFT than taking forgotten/abandon change out of a change slot. Just my opinion though.

Originally posted by TinkerHaus
I actually doubt that part of the story, to be honest. And it might be a bit dishonest, but it's still not theft.

Thanks for answering. It's nice to know that if I accidentally leave my wallet at the juice bar, you have no problem sorting through it, taking whatever contents as your own and telling yourself you didn't steal it, because I obviously didn't want it because I left it there. Amazing!

Even if these horrible 12 year olds were just waiting for him to walk away without his cash, he still walked away and left it there. That is a sign that it was unwanted.

And you believe that twisted logic? The $20 was "unwanted", since the man got it out of his bank account and left it in the machine, he "didn't really want it". :shk:

So I've answered your question, now please answer mine. Have you ever "stolen" change from a change slot?

This thread isn't about taking change out of a change slot. I have seen many threads on that idea, though.

Lost property

Property is generally deemed to have been lost if it is found in a place where the true owner likely did not intend to set it down, and where it is not likely to be found by the true owner. At common law, the finder of a lost item could claim the right to possess the item against any person except the true owner or any previous possessors.[

Mislaid property

Property is generally deemed to have been mislaid or misplaced if it is found in a place where the true owner likely did intend to set it, but then simply forgot to pick it up again.

For example, a wallet found in a shop lying on a counter near a cash register will likely be deemed misplaced rather than lost.

Under common law principles, the finder of a misplaced object has a duty to turn it over to the owner of the premises, on the theory that the true owner is likely to return to that location to search for his misplaced item. If the true owner does not return within a reasonable time (which varies considerably depending on the circumstances), the property becomes that of the owner of the premises

A landowner has superior claim over a find made within the non-public areas of his property, so if a customer finds lost property in the public area of a store, the customer has superior claim to the lost property over that of the store-owner, but if the customer finds the lost property in the non-public area of that store, such as an area marked "Employees Only," the store-owner will have superior claim, as the customer was trespassing when he found it

Abandoned property

Property is generally deemed to have been abandoned if it is found in a place where the true owner likely intended to leave it, but is in such a condition that it is apparent that he or she has no intention of returning to claim it. Abandoned property generally becomes the property of whoever should find it and take possession of it first

en.wikipedia.org...

This case seems to be mislaid property.

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by 74Templar

This makes me wonder the most, above all else, what is the youth of today coming to? Now I know some of you will say “they’re not all bad,” and I do agree. There are bad and good, in every generation, young and old. But what kind of slippery slope is our youth on when a twelve year old thinks it is ok to blatantly steal in such a manner?

 

Are you kidding me? It's called "finders keepers".

You left it behind. Meaning you didn't want it anymore (or forgot it). I would not care if it were mine because I would want myself to learn the lesson to not be so forgetful.

The worst part is that because "there are cameras there" you say the girls should somehow think of it more criminal than you already classify it.

So I'm curious, two hundred years ago you leave a gold coin on a tavern seat by mistake, the fellow that finds it is less of a criminal because there were no cameras on him?


---
Sorry if I sound harsh Templar, nothing personal, just my view on the situation.

edit on 11-6-2012 by boncho because: (no reason given)

People like you reason anything in their favor.

If it was your money you would be not too happy.

They didn't find it in a random isle, they didn't find it on the sidewalk outside the store, they SAW who's money it was and they could have told the OP " hey , you left your $20.00 and did the right thing.

There have been a couple times where people left behind $10-20......And I could def have used that money only having maybe $20 to my name......But I jogged after them to let them know they left their cash.


And I know I did the right thing.

it's about doing what is right, not what is right for you.

reply to post by TinkerHaus

the lack of logic, responsibility and basic couth in the responses to this story simply amazes me.

When you ABANDON something, you no longer own it. When you leave your change in the machine you are ABANDONING it.

this statement says a lot.
and here's a question for you ... if abandoning something means you no longer own it, then why does every commercial location feature a "lost and found" ????

so, if i leave/forget my sunglasses at dinner, they are no longer mine ??
if i forget a child (any child) in a public bathroom, they are no longer my responsibility ??
if i leave an extra $5 at the Sunpass station (toll booth) for the next 5 cars and you are next in line, do you think you have a right to "claim" my $4 change/pre-paid fee for the next 4 cars ?? i did abandon it, right ??

gooooolllly, you folks sure make me less interested in being a "good" person.

Abandonment, in law, is the relinquishment or renunciation of an interest, claim, privilege, possession, or right, especially with the intent of never again resuming or reasserting it.

Common law abandonment is "the voluntary relinquishment of a thing by its owner with the intention of terminating his ownership, and without [the intention of] vesting ownership in any other person; the giving up of a thing absolutely, without reference to any particular person or purpose...

en.wikipedia.org...

It would seem that leaving something behind does not automatically make it abandoned.

reply to post by LucidDreamer85

People like you reason anything in their favor.

If it was your money you would be not too happy.

I have left money more than a few times in those automated teller stations, so I don't see how that is in my favor. My sentiment is that if I leave it behind, it is a write off.

Needless to say, I prefer live, human agents at the checkout when I go shopping.