Israeli, Palestinian negotiators quietly meet

reply to post by Citybig

Palestine does not exist, it was entirely created to have a central maypole from which to promote Anti-Semetism.

Israel was created out of the British Mandate of Palestine. Your argument is invalid, and you know this, and are falling back on the tried and true tactics we have all come to know and love.

repeat it repeat it repeat it
ignore to the contrary

And you've also slipped into attacking the character of the posters instead of what they are saying.

so transparent my friend, it's sad really.

So, my friend, going from your logic...

The mass displacement of Jews in Eastern Europe before the death camps were opened, is ok right? Because those jews only lived there for generations, where as Germans and Aryans had been there thousands of years before. Right?

Because that's the argument you are making my friend.

but it's working. You are irritating and belligerent and you are getting the exact responses you are looking for.

As with every other thread that remotely deals with the other side of the Israel-Palestinian issue, this thread will be dustbinned and 404'd because our kind local zionist supporters simply won't allow you to discuss it here.

Such is life.

reply to post by Citybig


Ok, I will answer you infantile question

During what period of time has a state called Palestine, inhabited by Palestinians, ever existed as an independent nation state in the Middle East?

Never. So what is your point?

There had never been a secular nation called Israel full of Israelis before 1948 either. I suppose all countries should now withdraw their recognition?

The main point is, that whether you call them Palestinians, Arabs or whatever, they were living there on property and land they owned in an area referred to as Palestine under the illegitimate empires of both the British and Turks. Many of these people usurped from their land and homes still hold the deeds and keys to their houses either now being lived in by Israelis or long ago bulldozed.

As a result of their shared experiences under the occupation they are a Palestinian people like any other nation, maybe even more so. The country has now been recognised by over a 100 nations, more than Kosovo. They have the institutions of a state. They are to all intents and purposes a nation, they are just being denied this complete recognition at the UN by Israel and the US.

To end the conflict it has been generally accepted that a Palestinian nation will be involved, it is called the two-state solution as endorsed by successive Israeli and Palestinian leaderships and supported by the UN. As we know this is not what is actually happening on the ground as the settlements continue to grow in the the West Bank and East Jerusalem continues to be Judaisied, but it is at least acknowledged that the two-state solution, on paper, is the way forward.

It is in Israels long term interest to make a just peace with the Palestinians, every sensible Jew and Israeli knows this.

It is blinkered ideologues like yourself who try and shade the conflict in pointless arguments. The argument has been lost on the continuing Israeli occupation, the moral and factual weight of the world is with the Palestinians achieving justice and a state.

I would love in years to come to see two partners in peace and trade co-existing alongside each over, Israel and Palestine.

Clearly the thoughts and words of an antisemitic Nazi.

Here are some books and journal articles for you to educate yourself with.

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe

A Broken Trust: Herbert Samuel, Zionism and the Palestinians, by Sahar Huneidi

The Colonies of Law: Colonialism, Zionism, and Law in Early Mandate Palestine R Shamir

The Ottoman Empire, Zionism, and the Question of Palestine (1880-1908) MK Öke - International Journal of Middle East Studies, 1982

reply to post by buster2010


Palestine didn't exist as a nation-state before Israel declared its Independence in 1948. Nor did it exist as a nation-state when the territory was known as Palestine-TransJordan and administered by the British government under the League of Nations mandate. Prior to the conquest of Palestine and other Arab countries during the 1st World War, it had been a part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire, so not even a nation-state then.

But that isn't really the point. The point is that the land was known as Palestine, the people who lived there were known as Palestinians and they were recognised as an homogenous society. When Israel declared independence, there were no clearly defined borders for the fledgling country. Although political recognition was granted immediately by the United States and others soon followed their example, the fact is that even today, Israel does not have settled borders. It's borders are armistice lines that denote the limits of the land acquired by armed force.

During the Israeli War of Independence, Israel succeeded in increasing the territory that it occupied beyond that which had been suggested by the United Nations. The Palestinians, despite military support by neighbouring Arab nations, lost territory, homes, villages, orchards and farmland - holding on to the Old City of Jerusalem, large parts of the coastal plain and all of the West Bank.

I'm glad that Israel and Palestine are talking. It is not in Israel's long-term interests to acquire Palestinian land on the West Bank because the more it does so, the more it will become inevitable that it will have to absorb the Palestinian people into a Greater Israel and accord them full civil and legal rights as Israelis. There is already a population of Arab Israelis with such rights. If the West Bank were to be fully absorbed, then the demographics would dramatically change - and Israel would soon have a minority Jewish population.

Clearly, if a solution is found, in the form of an independent Palestinian nation-state, then adjustments can be made to compensate Arabs who lost the homes and lands, and to compensate Jews who lost their homes and land. It is often forgotten that many of the Jews who now live in Israel once lived in countries like Syria, Iraq, Persia, the Yemen and left their property behind when they fled persecution.

Virulent adherence to charter principles by organisations such as Hamas, Hizbollah and Fatah do nothing to improve the climate for negotiations. Recognition of the legitimate claims of both sides, in a spirit of true reconciliation, is needed. Israel needs internationally-recognised secure and defensible borders and the Palestinians need a viable territory for their nation-state.

The current turmoil in Syria adds a new dimension to the political scenario and it remains to be seen how this will affect Israel, Palestine and Jordan. I sense that these are the early signs of region-wide political changes.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


You seem to forget it's against international law to take by force.

The territory of a State is inviolable; it may not be the object, even temporarily, of military occupation or of other measures of force taken by another State, directly or indirectly, on any grounds whatever. No territorial acquisitions or special advantages obtained either by force or by other means of coercion shall be recognized.

International law and the Arab–Israeli conflict

But for some reason they overlook this when it comes to Israel.

reply to post by ciscoagent


If they didn't know the borders the how where they able to make this neat map?

reply to post by buster2010


Eh?

No Israeli land has been taken by force.

Update: I think i misread your post. Apologies.

Originally posted by Citybig
I'm going to post this question for a third time. It would be nice to get an answer instead of abuse.

Why is it that you never lament and rage over the Turkish Ottoman Empire taking over so-called "Palestine", or the British Empire taking over so-called "Palestine"? Surely you would feel just as angry at these entities taking up residence there, no?

And here is a second question, again, I'd like you to answer it and not simply revert to abusive hate filled language such is the backbone of your misplaced beliefs.

During what period of time has a state called Palestine, inhabited by Palestinians, ever existed as an independent nation state in the Middle East?

we can argue whether or not the British Empire had the right to give away such lands in the first place..



yet the fact remains.. even the Balfour declaration acknowledges the existence of "Non-Jewish Communities"

living in a land known as "Palestine" with Religious & Civil rights that are not to be prejudiced..

so Palestinian ownership & existence was & is known..to be under the Crowns control...in 1917 for the formation of these land to be israel.

why are you denying it existed at all?

israel did not exist then, nor can anyone prove it has in the past..

the simple fact is..

if you want to argue about the British Empire taking over Palestine illegally..

then they had NO POWER to form israel. you just single-handedly destroyed any legit claim for israel to exist.

yet the British are not the ones killing people today, are they?

thats why in the interest of peace..

people call for israel to cease its Palestinian Holocaust..

you can not claim you need your own place because you supposedly were the center of a plot

to wipe out your entire culture..

then get a place..

and turn around then do it to another people weaker than you..

seriously .. think about it..

I hope these talks get some where..

Well if they want to settle the issue with binding arbitration we could find some people to arbitrate.

So that it ended up being fair.

Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by Citybig
Hopefully the talks will result in the "Palestinians" returning to their actual lands of origin in Syria, Jordan and Egypt and the liberation of the areas stolen from Israel by the Arabs.

You have the distinction of being probably the only pro-Israel poster on this forum.

I'm pro-Israel, just not pro-zionist. I understand theyre afraid of terrorism, but building apartheid walls isn't the way to handle the situation. Neither is building illegal settlements. You don't need a 2 state solution, all you gotta do is give palestinians Israeli citizenship and rights, and any land that is annexed allow the owners to keep but tax them. There is a peaceful solution to be had, the issue is both sides want it all their way with no compromise and that will never work and we see the fruits of that today.

By UN mandate half of Jerusalem is under Palestinian control. How can this be if there is no Palestine? It will be the same as always Palestine will say stop the settlements and Israel will you don't want peace and leave. How many decades has this been going on now?

Citybig is zionist facist supporter. no point in arguing with his zionist brainwashed head.
Some people might think the nazis are evil but if they had finished the job and gassed all the jews i ll admit we wouldnt have the israel-palestine problem and the world would be a better place without the zionist jews controlling everything

By history I think we able to know why Jews hated by Pharaoh and by Hitler and Alexander etc great empires.
And also why the temples destroyed again and again.

These people are really selfish and its in their circulating gene pool, it cant be helped.
After all they are the "chosen people", pffttt.
(keep on living with your curse fellow Jews)

What I am thinking of that could be a benefit to Syria is if the SCO, were to invest in irrigation in Syria, to raise their GDP per capita.

So that people can farm and earn a living. Now that would make the SCO (Russia and China in this case primarily) a kind of overlord. In a sense almost feudal overlords until the people did not need an authoritarian government because their GDP had risen sufficiently.

So this loan and smaller forgivable loans will be too large for the people to pay back in a reasonable period of time through agriculture, but we still want to steer the people into an agrarian type society so they can make a living and grow a democratic lobby or council based on farming associations (land owners).

So then in return for this patronage, Syria should grant the SCO some land on the Mediterranean for a convention center for the SCO and for a dry dock, for emergency ship repairs within the Mediterranean.

Now if you grant them this, then they will also allow you to use a portion of the dry dock for your own needs.
www.memrieconomicblog.org...

So then this situation in Syria could turn out badly if the US intervenes at this time. Russia is meeting with them on Wednesday has been their ally for years, and probably some suggestion that the president relieve himself of his duties and pass on his power to a deputy along with news that great things are in the works, and in such a way, will then set himself up as an icon for the people, since he finally managed to bring some prosperity.

So he becomes a figurehead. And the reasons for that are to avoid civil war.

Now Israel is of course interested in what their neighbors are doing, and surrounded by Titan states, themselves being Olympians, it can make them paranoid. But I think a plan to maintain Afghanistan as a NATO protectorate, (to keep the trade route vibrant and free lets say) and to play war games since we are hopefully going into a time of peace. The militaries of the NATO countries and their guests could just continue to use the bulk of Afghanistan to maintain quality of military service and training. So you see there would then be a huge presence there in Afghanistan and you needn't be paranoid.

They would build facilities for each country and infrastructure we would house a great deal of equipment there and maintain it. At some point in the far future, it would be turned back over to the people of Afghanistan, and they would benefit from the infrastructure and be able to be a functioning country at that point.

Without that intervention by continued use of the land they would remain some of the most destitute people on earth since they have no prospects. Although they have water, and some minerals yet to be developed.

So the deal would be that NATO helps them develop their mineral industry, and also spends money there for whatever they can spend money on there to increase their GDP per capita which is below starvation level at present. $962.00 per person per year gross domestic product.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by Citybig
Hopefully the talks will result in the "Palestinians" returning to their actual lands of origin in Syria, Jordan and Egypt and the liberation of the areas stolen from Israel by the Arabs.

You have the distinction of being probably the only pro-Israel poster on this forum.

I'm pro-Israel, just not pro-zionist. I understand theyre afraid of terrorism, but building apartheid walls isn't the way to handle the situation. Neither is building illegal settlements. You don't need a 2 state solution, all you gotta do is give palestinians Israeli citizenship and rights, and any land that is annexed allow the owners to keep but tax them. There is a peaceful solution to be had, the issue is both sides want it all their way with no compromise and that will never work and we see the fruits of that today.

edit on 11-6-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

the Israelis wont allow this as it would destroy the concept of a all Jewish state
hence their active NO to the idea, also Hamas wouldnt really go for it

Fatah has threatend to go with it though sometime ago if they run out of options.

reply to post by illusive man

The Israelis wont allow this as it would destroy the concept of a all Jewish state
hence their active NO to the idea, also Hamas wouldnt really go for it

You can't have an all jewish state, that is the most redundant idea i've ever heard. Most the people there who claim to be jewish are not even real jews. Converts are not completely jew because they were not born jew and most those euro-jews were decendants of converts. Moreover they practice Talmudic Judaism, not Mosaic Judaism which is true Judaism. They may be decendants of Israel but they are not real jews and they cannot be. Talmudic Judaism is a contradiction to Mosaic Judaism because it breaks every law in the Decalogue.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by illusive man

 

The Israelis wont allow this as it would destroy the concept of a all Jewish state
hence their active NO to the idea, also Hamas wouldnt really go for it

You can't have an all jewish state, that is the most redundant idea i've ever heard. Most the people there who claim to be jewish are not even real jews. Converts are not completely jew because they were not born jew and most those euro-jews were decendants of converts. Moreover they practice Talmudic Judaism, not Mosaic Judaism which is true Judaism. They may be decendants of Israel but they are not real jews and they cannot be. Talmudic Judaism is a contradiction to Mosaic Judaism because it breaks every law in the Decalogue.

you have to remember there are Political leaders in Israel who are hard core zionest and want a Jewish state
the thought of a one state solution would for them mean an end to israel as a majority Jewish state (maybe not a 100% but majority)

the Palestians would be citizens and have right to vote (looking at Christians and Muslims, more of them running the country)

which would mean the political and ethnical balance would weight against jews

and this is what they dont want.



one hand they dont want palestine as a state as they cant continue to expand if that happens
on the other hand they dont want a one state solution as mentioned above

This must be the 60th or so round of 'negotiations'....nothing will ever come of it.

Areas of dispute are simply too incorrigible to be resolved.

Right of Return? A sine Qua Non for the PA, an absolute demographic nightmare for Israel (essentially portending the end of Israel if it were to happen). No chance of compromise.

Bifurcation of Jerusalem, the eastern half into a Palestinian capital, with the western and modern half, the Israeli capital. An absolutely unacceptable condition for the Israelis, who insist on the unity of their capital city.

An Israeli military presence in the West Bank. The Palestinians want the IDF out of the West Bank, the Israelis rightfully claim it would leave their economic heartland completely exposed if they were to divest from the west bank. Israel left Gaza in 2005; they left if with Fatah in power. Less than a year later, Hamas routed Fatah, kicked them out of the west bank and were 'democratically elected'. Who's to say the same exact thing wont happen in the west bank? What assurances can the Palestinians provide Israel, barring a 10 year program where Israel can monitor and help facilitate complete cultural reform. As long as Palestinians are being continuously fed venomous antisemitism in their media, it will be categorically impossible for the IDF to withdraw from the west bank, a mountainous region, leaving themselves exposed to RPG attacks on their major cities - Tel Aviv, Haifa, Jaffa etc......

These are the 3 main issues. For the PA, at least for Hamas, Israel must accept all 3 conditions for them to even ENTER into negotiations with Israel.

And, of course, there is the very contentious issue of Jews living in the west bank. Some 500,000 of them live there. If a PA state were to be established, unlike in 2005, where the IDF kicked out 10,000 Jews from the Gaza strip, this time they have 50 times that number. Yikes. And some settlers wont be as accommodating as the date farmers and florists from Gaza.

For Fatah, who pretends to be 'moderate' and legitimate, despite the fact that the al aqsa brigades are mostly made up of Fatah and force 17 members, to even have supporters in the west is mind boggling. How Israel is supposed to 'negotiate' with these people, when time and again they show themselves to be duplicitous, is ridiculously unreasonable.

If people don't understand how badly the Arab countries f**ked the Palestinians over back in the late 1940s, then no one will ever understand why "Palestine" doesn't exist as an independent country today.

The Palestinians could've had their own state as early as 1947, with the UN Partition Plan. All they had to do was accept the Plan and declare independence. Did they do that? NO. They followed the Arab brethrens' instruction and rejected the Plan. From there, it all went downhill. The Arab leaders wanted all of the land or no deal. Therefore, they invaded as soon as Israel declared independence.

It's also important to note that King Abdullah of Jordan and King Farouk of Egypt had no intentions of allowing "Palestine" to exist, either. Their goals, of grabbing as much territory as possible, was evident when Jordan annexed the West Bank and Egypt annexed the Gaza Strip shortly after the 1948 War. The Arab leaders were so caught up with goal of "ridding Palestine of Jews/Zionists", that the idea of a Palestinian state was just an afterthought.

Israel should not have been as big as it is today. This is largely due to the Arab refusal of the Plan, followed by their invasion of the tiny country(which wildly backfired), which led to the most drastic change in the region. Not only did Israel expand its borders, the remaining portions of the Plan were annexed by Egypt and Jordan, effectively ending any hope of a Palestinian state. Co-existence with the Jewish state was never an option for them.

Now the situation is worse. The Palestinians are in no position to make demands. They ask for 1967 borders, Right of Return, and East Jerusalem while the Israelis respond by saying "who are you kidding?". There is a lot of blame to go around for this situation, but Israel does not deserve the majority of it. I guess a good question would be: Do the Arab leaders today really give a f**k about the Palestinian people or a Palestianian state?

reply to post by DJAghetto


The Arab leaders will keep the palestinians in limbo if it takes 500 more years, I remember one Arab leader saying.

The idea of 'right of return', which entitles the descendants of palestinian refugees a 'right' to the lands they left in 1948, is essentially all we need to know about the PA and the Arabs in general. If they wanted to live in peace with Israel they wouldn't make this demand; if the international community, the UN in particular, really cared to defend Israels right to exist, they wouldn't legitimate this demand by acknowledging it. If these now 4.1 million Palestinians, today living comfortably in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and elsewhere, were to "return" to a country their grandparents once lived in (effectively butchering the official definition of refugee) Israel as a Jewish country would be destroyed.

The international community and Arabs are colluding against the Jewish people, there is simply no other explanation for this mental obtuseness.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by DJAghetto

 

The Arab leaders will keep the palestinians in limbo if it takes 500 more years, I remember one Arab leader saying.

The fact that the Arab countries don't even try to hide this, is mind-boggling to me. They don't grant them citizenship and they keep them in "refugee camps". And on top of that, some Arab countries even kicked the Palestinians out.

The idea of 'right of return', which entitles the descendants of palestinian refugees a 'right' to the lands they left in 1948, is essentially all we need to know about the PA and the Arabs in general. If they wanted to live in peace with Israel they wouldn't make this demand; if the international community, the UN in particular, really cared to defend Israels right to exist, they wouldn't legitimate this demand by acknowledging it. If these now 4.1 million Palestinians, today living comfortably in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and elsewhere, were to "return" to a country their grandparents once lived in (effectively butchering the official definition of refugee) Israel as a Jewish country would be destroyed.

From the beginning, this idea of "Right of Return" has been absurd. Even the Arab countries don't take it seriously. To demand this, 60+ years later, is even more insane. It's just not practical or economical.

Although the Palestinian economy is improving in the West Bank, there's no way it can withstand such an influx of people. The living conditions would get drastically worse over there.

There's simply no logic behind this idea.

The international community and Arabs are colluding against the Jewish people, there is simply no other explanation for this mental obtuseness.

This seems to be the case since Day 1 and is the main reason Israel developed nuclear capabilities. Had the Arabs accepted the UN Partition Plan, recognized Israel, and developed full diplomatic relations with Israel, then Israel would not have needed this capability.