Famous Catholic Masons?

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posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


The only sin is that Catholics consider it a sin to belong to a fraternity. It's political and always has been, you must know this.

Grave sin, my left toe.




posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 03:50 PM
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reply to post by W3RLIED2
 

Dear W3RLIED2,

Maybe the problem I'm having is using the word "sin." Would it help if I just said major and minor "rule infraction?" The rules for the CRL (Catholic Religion League) are set in League headquarters in Rome. Here is a clip from one of the rule books (and a tiny bit of background):

In 1983, Prefect Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with the personal approval of Pope John Paul II, issued a Declaration on Masonic Associations, which reiterated the Church's objections to Freemasonry. The Declaration states:

"The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion...." and "...the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association(s) remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden."
From the Wiki translation of the rules: www.ask.com... So the Commisssioner of the League himself signed off on these rules. You can see that this is a major rule infraction, regardless of what your toes think.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


The problem isn't the word, the problem is that Catholics assume too much about freemasonry, when in reality it serves to enhance any spiritual or religious journey a man chooses. The fact that KoC and Freemason lodges get along so well together should signal the flawed politics of the situation. Any catholic mason will tell you there is nothing in Freemasonry that detracts from his faith.



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by W3RLIED2
 

Dear W3RLIED2,

Thanks, that helps clear some things up

the problem is that Catholics assume too much about freemasonry, when in reality it serves to enhance any spiritual or religious journey a man chooses.
It may be that Rome has a misunderstanding about Freemasonry, it maybe be also that Rome is looking at it worldwide rather than just the US. But the point that seems important to me is that the League Commisioner has made the call and it's in the rule books. Might it change some day, sure. But it hasn't yet.

The fact that KoC and Freemason lodges get along so well together should signal the flawed politics of the situation.
To me it signals that a bunch of guys playing cards or having a beer and burgers can enjoy one another's company. I would be astonished if anyone in either group raised a divisive religious-philosophical issue. It would spoil the mood. (Besides, nobody at the picnic cares about Billy's philosophy, he wants to hear about how much he's getting per bushel or what the European stock market is doing.) Heck, Obama played golf with Boehner. That didn't signal anything.

Any catholic mason will tell you there is nothing in Freemasonry that detracts from his faith.
I will only hope that they don't know about the rules, ignorance is sometimes a defense. Hurt his faith? I don't know. Hurt his standing in the Church that he professes to believe in and accept? Yeah, it hurts it.

I would rather the fellow say "I can't belong to the Masons without it being called a grave sin? Ok. I'm leaving the Church." than say "I know it's against my team rules to practice with this other team, but I'll do it anyway and pretend it's Ok, or say that it should be Ok, so I can do it.

Just be honest about it.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 04:49 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


This is one of the reasons I am no longer ' in the Fold'.

Give it some time, there may be some catholic masons around. I only speak for myself though.

I understand what your saying. If you profess a belief in a religious system that denounces belonging to a Masonic body, then it's probably time to make a choice in regards to that religion. However, the very nature of freemasonry encourages a man to delve deeply into his faith, so it would be hard for me to say a man should not be catholic and a Mason. From personal experience I have seen no issues between the two, outside of the political.

Certainly belonging to a fraternity is not a sin by any means.



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 05:59 PM
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reply to post by W3RLIED2
 


Knowing what I know of both Freemasonry and Catholicism, I can say with some certainty, that you are correct. The only thing keeping the two apart is politics. Still some idiot clinging to the "old ways" without taking the time nor the effort to truly understand what is it that is being condemned.

I kind of lost my big picture on the Catholic faith since I don't think I need a mediator with God. I found my relationship with God is personal and that I don't need an authorative body telling me how to worship, or what I can and can't do. It's a personal choice for me and I felt this way before I even know what masonry was. I believe that when you take the similarities of all the religions, you find the core of what is truly important. The rules, and stipulations seem to detract from the real meaning.

But I guess my church would never make it. We would have 5 minute sermons and they would all say the same thing. "Be a good person, treat others like you would like them to treat you, and help those that need it whenever possible. Now go in peace." Then we would have a beer.



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


Exactly. Your words mirror my feelings about my own relationship with the Above quite well, brother.

Obligatory second line here.



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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reply to posts by W3RLIED2 and network dude
 

Dear Gentlemen,

Thank you very much. You have encouraged me to look more deeply into the subject and I am grateful to you both for that. I was especially inspired to search by your agreement that the only thing keeping the Church and Masonry apart was politics.

This confused me. What politics are the Masons involved in that would conflict with what politics the Church is involved in? So I looked for reasons for the animosity between the two, maybe I would find out that it is politics after all.

I found a site that seemed to be basically one document. I forgot to get the link, but that doesn't really matter, I'll get it if you want it. My question is, is he right about the Kadosh degree?

The two traditional enemies of Freemasonry are the royalty and the papacy. Masons even believe that Christ, dying on Calvary, was the "greatest among the apostles of humanity, braving Roman despotism and the fanaticism and bigotry of the priesthood." When one reaches the 30th degree in the masonic hierarchy, called the Kadosh, the person crushes with his foot the papal tiara and the royal crown, and swears to free mankind "from the bondage of despotism and the thraldom of spiritual tyranny."
I kept looking and found a site called Freemasoninformation. They had a Canon lawyer as a guest writer on the subject of the disagreement between Cathloics and Masons. He wrote, among other things,

The next significant event in Catholic-Masonic relations occurred in talks that occurred over a six-year period between 1974 and 1980 when representatives from the German Episcopal Conference held talks with a group representing the Grand Lodges of Germany. The conclusion of the German Bishops’ Conference was:

“the Freemasons have essentially not changed. Membership [in the masons] places the foundations of Christian existence in question. Detailed investigations of the Masonic rituals and fundamental ideas, and of their current, unchanged self-understanding make clear: Simultaneous membership in the Catholic Church and freemasons is incompatible.”

Jenkins points out that “the bishops reached their unequivocal conclusion after having first considered the positive elements of Freemasonry, including its humanitarian interests, charitable works, anti-materialist ideology, as well as the excellent personal qualities required of its members.” He states that the bishop’s listed twelve areas of Masonic teaching that were at variance with the Church’s own belief, and with which the Church could never reconcile itself:
I won't include all 12 (Wall of Text problem), but you can go yourself for the rest.

1.The Masonic World-view: The Masons promote a freedom from dogmatic adherence to any one set of revealed truths. Such a subjective relativism is in direct conflict with the revealed truths of Christianity.
2.The Masonic Notion of Truth: The masons deny the possibility of an objective truth, placing every truth instead in a relative context.
3.The Masonic Notion of Religion: The Masonic teaching holds a relative notion of religions as all concurrently seeking the truth of the absolute.
Canon Lawyer on the Dispute The German Bishops' position has been the dominant one ever since and explains the 1983 Declaration without having to bring politics into it.

Again, gentlemen, thank you very much for the encouragement you gave me.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 08:25 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


I am not a member of the Scottish Rite, so because of this I don't know if your source is accurate or not. it strikes me as correct though... I have many Masonic books and resources at my disposal ( personal library ) and don't see anything that conflicts with what you have presented.

BUT, I can say for certain that most masons Have probably heard of, or subscribe to the saying.

" rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God ".

Rings true even in regards to spirituality.

It's been a pleasure chatting with you, Charles. I'm glad to have helped.



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 09:08 PM
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Danny Thomas - he was a Maronite-Rite Catholic, and founder of the St. Jude's Hospital(s). He was also a Mason.



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 09:39 PM
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reply to post by Zhenyghi
 

Dear Zhenyghi,

Thank you very much for finding this, I never would have thought it. Here's the first paragraph of a Maronite website:

The Maronites, an Eastern rite Catholic Church, profess the same Apostolic Faith, celebrate the same Mysteries (Sacraments) and are united with the chief Shepherd of the Church, the Pope, as all Roman Catholics throughout the world. They have their own distinct theology, spirituality, liturgy and code of canon law. (emphasis added)
www.maronitemonks.org... I suspect that means that they follow a different law from the Roman Rite Church, so a Maronite could possibly be a Mason.

Thanks again, I had forgotten all about Eastern Rite churches.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 10:59 PM
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No, dogma in the Maronite Church is the same as the Latin Church, so any Papal Bulls would apply to the Maronites, unless they were specifically excluded in the text of the Bull.



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by Zhenyghi
 

Dear Zhenyghi,

Thank you very much, would you please help me a little more?

I was under the impression that this Masonic thing was a matter of Canon law and not a Papal Bull. And that the 1983 Declaration was a way of clarifying what that section meant. So when I saw the monks' website that said they had a different Canon law, I thought that this was one area which might have been different. Where did I go wrong? Perhaps this section is the same in both codes? Perhaps the monks were in error and there really is only one Code of Canon law?

Do you happen to be Maronite? I don't know any. My Grandmother's church was Ukrainian Orthodox. (Which is, at least, from the Eastern tradition.) I live in a small town and the only Eastern Rite Church I know of is at least 50 miles away.

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 11:36 PM
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Andrew Michael Ramsay, Chevalier Ramsay, Jacobite supporter of Bonnie Prince Charlie of Scotland. Converted to Catholicism about 1710. He was the tutor of Prince Charles son's Charles Edward and Henry.

Gave a famous speech in 1737 where he intimated a link between the knights of the crusades and masonry. There is a lot of controversy surrounding this oration.

Amadeus Mozart also was a mason and wrote some of his music with masonry in mind.
edit on 10-6-2012 by sharkman because: (no reason given)


I also found an interesting piece on this subject at phoenixmasonry.org written in the late 1960's or early 1970's about the schism between the Catholic church and masonry. It posited some interesting points about the politics on the continent and in Great Britian about the break between the two and offered some interesting insight and perspective that I have never heard discussed on this side of the Atlantic.
edit on 11-6-2012 by sharkman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 12:07 AM
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reply to post by sharkman
 

Dear sharkman,

Thanks for the reminder. The Magic Flute wasn't it? Beautiful music.

If I've got my times right, modern masonry started in 1717 and the Pope started banning it in 1738. Do you think Ramsay's 1737 speech had anything to do with the Pope's decision?

With respect,
Charles1952



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 12:15 AM
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reply to post by charles1952
 


Charles1952,

He wrote at least eight pieces dedicated to masonry and I believe there may be more. Good hunting!!

I added a note about a paper I had read at phoenixmasonry.org that discussed the politics behind the break from a european or continental perspective. There was huge anti-catholic reprisals across Great Britian and later in France( anti-catholic/athiest movements) that may have contributed to the break.
edit on 11-6-2012 by sharkman because: (no reason given)
I don't think that Ramsay's work was a driving factor.
edit on 11-6-2012 by sharkman because: (no reason given)
edit on 11-6-2012 by sharkman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 12:27 AM
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I guess there are some non-practicing Catholics who have joined freemasons.

Found this sites that details RC stance on freemasonry:


Declaration of Freemasonry - RCC stance.
Further discussion on RCC stance



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 12:34 AM
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reply to post by sharkman
 


Since the first Papal Bull preceded the schism in 1877, I don't think it was responsible but I am sure it added fuel to their fire. However, it is remarkable that in countries with a state religion (Catholic and/or Orthodox) that Continental Freemasonry is dominant.

I wouldn't say that Continental Masonry is atheistic, rather it is adogmatic.

On a side note, we use Mozart and Beethoven as music in our Lodge, very inspirational and uplifting.

edit on 11-6-2012 by no1smootha because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 05:07 AM
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Originally posted by charles1952
By joining the Masons, they are in grave sin, and are not eligible for Communion until the proper penances have been performed.


Eligible or not they are still getting communion.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 07:51 AM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Their Monsignor is aware of their dual membership and they have not been excommunicated or prevented from attending Mass.



Actually, they have. The excommunication is automatic, and local clergy do not have the authority to reverse it. If they continue to receive the Eucharist, they do so in a state of rebellion against the Church.





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