The Truth About Obamacare From Someone Who Actually Read It

Øbama-Care was created for continued action by the politicians and bureaucrats...

there will be at least a decade of unsnarling the twisted knots found in the 'Affordable Healthcare' law
thus giving the political class a platform to run on or run against

there is also the benefit of creating a source of money velocity, so economists can juggle the figures and deem the USA as not having too much debt to GDP and therefore not get Its Treasury Bills & Bonds degraded


its all a shell game con

reply to post by nenothtu


Do you know what the true cost of healthcare is in this country? 12,000 for a good policy plus fifty bucks on the house insurance, a hefty amount on your car insurance, and the copay on all of these. What about the fact that all businesses pass on their expenses to consumers so everything we buy has a little health insurance tacked onto it's cost. Insurance companies make profit, they aren't in it to provide a service. Doctors also have liability insurance which brings up rates to customers. You can't sue the government. Our present healthcare system sucks, We are way down the totum pole as far as quality coverage but our costs are higher than most other countries. We have crap. Our total cost of healthcare must be twenty five percent to thirty five percent of our wages. if everything is taken into consideration. I'm sure you don't understand that your present health plan is inferior to one in socialized medicine countries. The better your health plan, the worse chance you have of getting adequate treatment because the longer they keep you strung out the more they profit. I've had many tests that I didn't need because of my good health insurance. I'm sure others have good horror stories also.

reply to post by xuenchen
and here's some news from the "home"front ... Goodwill Industries / FL anyway ... has ceased to offer employer sponsored medical insurance as they cannot recruit the minimum required participation.
employee raises have been stalled for at least 3yrs and most working for a "hand-up" can't even qualify for a handout.
so, in such cases, who pays ??

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Do you know what the true cost of healthcare is in this country? 12,000 for a good policy plus fifty bucks on the house insurance, a hefty amount on your car insurance, and the copay on all of these.

You probably didn't grasp that I don't care. I don't play the insurance lotto, and don't buy any of those sorts of "insurance", or any other. What YOU choose to buy isn't any of my business.

What about the fact that all businesses pass on their expenses to consumers so everything we buy has a little health insurance tacked onto it's cost.

What businesses do with their money is also none of my business. I'm not buying insurance from them, I'm buying a product. Where the money I pay goes after it's their money isn't my concern. If they overprice their products for whatever reason, I don't buy them at all.

Insurance companies make profit, they aren't in it to provide a service.

That is correct, which is why I call them the "insurance lotto". I won't cry if they all vanish at 9 am tomorrow morning. I won't notice at all, nor would I care if I did notice them suddenly vanish.

Doctors also have liability insurance which brings up rates to customers.

True, but also not my concern. I'm not a doctor nor do I patronize them. For those of you who do, you might check into some tort reform to bring those prices down for your doctor.

You can't sue the government.

Anyone can sue anyone for anything. That's most of the problem with frivolous lawsuits pumping up your doctor's malpractice insurance.

Our present healthcare system sucks,

Agreed, which is the main reason I forego it. Do you seriously think putting medicine in the hands of bureaucrats will somehow magically improve it? I don't know about you, but I've not had much in the way of good experiences dealing with bureaucrats.

We are way down the totum pole as far as quality coverage but our costs are higher than most other countries.

I don't care what other countries do. I've never been one for keeping up with the Jones'.

We have crap. Our total cost of healthcare must be twenty five percent to thirty five percent of our wages.

Yours, maybe, but not mine. That sounds like a personal problem to me.

if everything is taken into consideration. I'm sure you don't understand that your present health plan is inferior to one in socialized medicine countries.

1) WHAT "present health plan"? My plan is that if I get sick enough, I'll die. No one lives forever, and it's a futile attempt to throw money at mortality in an effort to do so. I've got better things to do with my money than throw it away. I neither have any health insurance nor want any.

2) I still don't care what other countries do. If I wanted their system, I'd move there.

The better your health plan, the worse chance you have of getting adequate treatment because the longer they keep you strung out the more they profit.

maybe you, but not me. If I don't play their game at all, they can't win against me.

I've had many tests that I didn't need because of my good health insurance. I'm sure others have good horror stories also.

When I was younger, I played the health insurance lotto, and was also victim to that system. When I stopped dealing with them, all those problems magically went away.

What you do in the matter is your own business. I don't deal with that system at all. Don't ask me to subsidize your dabbling in a broken system, and don't ask me to loan you money to play the slots in Vegas, either.

reply to post by xuenchen


As one who has recently battled the healthcare system to keep my wife alive I think I know what the problem is. Too many laws and rules by people who know nothing about medicine are literally choking the system. The same is true for the entire rickety system we live under. That is one reason businesses have relocated to other countries. Too many conflicting agencies have created a mess that can't be fixed and obamacare makes it even worse by combining the worst features of socialism and crony capitalism. The system used to run just fine when I grew up and people received good charity care from the many local hospitals if they did not have any money. Of course an office visit was only a few dollars then. When health insurance and medicare came along the costs began to skyrocket out of control. Just administering the system consumes a huge amount of time and money. Errors are built into the system which can be fatal. When the whole big house of cards collapses we will all be doing things again on the local level. That always worked the best for this country.

reply to post by otheym


Thanks for bringing those very good points to our attention.

You are not alone.

Hope all is well.

Originally posted by texasgirl
reply to post by axslinger

 

Thanks for your post, it was very informative to me. What do you suggest we do? Should we completely avoid putting any money into a flexible spending account?

No, I wouldn't avoid it, just make sure you will use up what you put in through regular office visits, prescription drugs, etc. I still think they're a good idea just not for OTC items.

Keep in mind, anything you don't spend within the year will be forfeited so do be too zealous about how much you save.

The other upside to FSA's is that if you sign up for, let's say, $1000/yr and the year starts on Jan. 1st, you have that full $1000 available to you immediately, even if you haven't paid it in yet. Secondly, if you use it all up by January 5th due to a broken arm and you get laid off on January 6th, you don't have to pay it back! Conversely, if you pay in all year and it's December 23rd and you get laid off and still have the money in the account, you lose it.

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Do you know what the true cost of healthcare is in this country? 12,000 for a good policy plus fifty bucks on the house insurance, a hefty amount on your car insurance, and the copay on all of these. What about the fact that all businesses pass on their expenses to consumers so everything we buy has a little health insurance tacked onto it's cost. Insurance companies make profit, they aren't in it to provide a service. Doctors also have liability insurance which brings up rates to customers. You can't sue the government. Our present healthcare system sucks, We are way down the totum pole as far as quality coverage but our costs are higher than most other countries. We have crap. Our total cost of healthcare must be twenty five percent to thirty five percent of our wages. if everything is taken into consideration. I'm sure you don't understand that your present health plan is inferior to one in socialized medicine countries. The better your health plan, the worse chance you have of getting adequate treatment because the longer they keep you strung out the more they profit. I've had many tests that I didn't need because of my good health insurance. I'm sure others have good horror stories also.

You make a good point but it's never that simple. I had to do cardiac rehab 3 years ago. The facility billed my insurance company $160 per session, 3- sessions per week. A session consisted of going to a "gym", strapping on a wireless EKG and exercising for an hour or two. Sounds outrageous, right? You know how much Medicare will pay for that same service? About $10. Fact. Since "ObamaCare" passed, doctors are dropping Medicare patients left and right and I can't say that I blame them.

Based on what I see at the hospital I work at, (this is just observation and anecdotal), I would estimate that 75% of the ER visits are visits that should have been taken to a Primary Care Provider or Urgent Care, NOT an ER. Why do they go to an ER? Because many or most Urgent Care facilities are privately owned and they are not obligated to take you without insurance or payment. Emergency departments are held to a different standard, as near as I can tell. Now, if YOU owned a business, would you agree with the government stepping in and forcing YOU to provide your goods or services if the person couldn't pay? Would you approve if the government said, "we're going to send you a lot of business but we're only going to pay you 10% of your normal rate"?

My own heart surgery was billed out at about $300K and my out of pocket was $4K. I went in on Sunday and was under the knife on Tuesday morning. That wouldn't happen in most socialized systems. You get on a list and they call your name when they get to it. Go home and hope like hell you live long enough to get the surgery you need. In my case, I had one of the top 3 heart surgeons in AZ, at the time. He performed a relatively new and "cutting edge" type of heart surgery called "MIDCAB", which is minimally invasive. It's a 4" cut under my left tit, they use a rib-spreader and paralyze the area of the heart to operate on so they are working on a beating heart, otherwise known as "off-pump"...no heart/lung machine as used with conventional CABG. The end result is a much quicker recovery and you don't have zipper chest. You can't even see my scar unless you're looking for it.

My point is, I don't believe I could have gotten better care anywhere in the world, at any cost. Now, considering the technology, skilled surgeon, rapid care and end result, are they justified in billing out $300K? I vote yes. This included an EKG, Sonogram, Angiogram (where they put the catheter up your femoral artery), nuclear stress test , a pulmonologist (heart surgery requires moving the left lung, almost invariably causing mild pneumonia or other issues in recovery) and a respiratory therapist.

Finally, I should point out that I had a job and health insurance that my employer paid for...about $500/month. My employer would have to pay that $500 a month for the next 50 years, without any other claims for the insurance company to get their $300K back.

So, do I have any sympathy for people who use the ER as their PCP, have no insurance and expect free service? Nope. Do I have any sympathy for people who have 3 or 4 kids without insurance? Nope. It's all a part of being a responsible, productive citizen. If you can't afford contraception how in the hell are you going to afford healthcare for the resulting children? You aren't entitled to free healthcare any more than you are entitle to free coffee from Starbucks.

reply to post by axslinger

Based on what I see at the hospital I work at, (this is just observation and anecdotal), I would estimate that 75% of the ER visits are visits that should have been taken to a Primary Care Provider or Urgent Care, NOT an ER. Why do they go to an ER? Because many or most Urgent Care facilities are privately owned and they are not obligated to take you without insurance or payment. Emergency departments are held to a different standard, as near as I can tell.

Good posts all the way

The emergency room thing is covered in a law.

Don't know if ObamaCare is changing anything however.

The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA)[1] is a U.S. Act of Congress passed in 1986 as part of the Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA). It requires hospitals to provide care to anyone needing emergency healthcare treatment regardless of citizenship, legal status or ability to pay. There are no reimbursement provisions. Participating hospitals may only transfer or discharge patients needing emergency treatment under their own informed consent, after stabilization, or when their condition requires transfer to a hospital better equipped to administer the treatment.[1]

EMTALA applies to "participating hospitals." The statute defines "participating hospitals" as those that accept payment from the Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) under the Medicare program.[2] However, in practical terms, EMTALA applies to virtually all hospitals in the U.S., with the exception of the Shriners Hospitals for Children, Indian Health Service hospitals, and Veterans Affairs hospitals.[citation needed] The combined payments of Medicare and Medicaid, $602 billion in 2004,[3] or roughly 44% of all medical expenditures in the U.S., make not participating in EMTALA impractical for nearly all hospitals. EMTALA's provisions apply to all patients, and not just to Medicare patients.[4][5]

The cost of emergency care required by EMTALA is not directly covered by the federal government. Because of this, the law has been criticized by some as an unfunded mandate.[6] Similarly, it has attracted controversy for its impacts on hospitals, and in particular, for its possible contributions to an emergency medical system that is "overburdened, underfunded and highly fragmented."[7] Charity Care or care provided to the uninsured represent an industry average of 20% of total cost of care provided[citation needed]. The uncompensated or non-reimbursed amounts are written off as bad debt thus becoming a tax write off and the unpaid bills are also sold to third party collection agencies for an average of 20 cents per dollar[citation needed]. However, health insurance reimbursements for services provided have continually been reduced by the health insurance companies[citation needed]. Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements for services have also been reduced[citation needed]. The increasing financial pressures on hospitals and the passage of EMTALA and the additional costs of regulations that health service providers are required to maintain have caused consolidations and closures of many emergency room facilities[citation needed]. However, the number of emergency room clinics, or emergency rooms not attached to a traditional hospital, have increased, as they are generally more efficient and cost less to operate than a traditional hospital-based emergency room[citation needed]. There is debate[by whom?] about the extent to which EMTALA has led to cost-shifting and higher rates for insured or paying hospital patients, thereby contributing to the high overall rate of medical inflation in the U.S.

Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act

reply to post by axslinger


Too much of our money goes to insurance companies. Too much of our money eventually goes to Lawyers. Too much of our money goes to agreements our government has made with Pharma companies to get reduced prices on drugs they are paying for. The list goes on and on. It's not the charges so much for the tests, if they socialized medicine it would equal out everything. I understand the extra tests I was sent to keeps the employees and equipment working at the hospital but meanwhile it delayed my healing. I see other people noticing they aren't getting the right treatments and their kids remain sick, nothing happening at the first appointment. This is going to turn out bad and people are going to turn on the medical trade. Our insurance costs 12000/year and the deductibles are growing, people are going to get mad soon. Look into what the doctors and healthcare workers from other countries say about their system. Don't let the propaganda created by the lawyers, patent holders, and pharma companies of this country dissuade you. Chat with people from these countries on the net and see what they say. I have done all this. You need to understand the conditioning we have been taught and the motives that are out there. As a hospital worker and most doctors would actually do better with less stress and a better environment. Healthcare should have never been allowed to be a for profit business. I can't tell you much more than to open your mind and eyes and see what's out there. I'm not Micheal Moore.

Originally posted by axslinger

Based on what I see at the hospital I work at, (this is just observation and anecdotal), I would estimate that 75% of the ER visits are visits that should have been taken to a Primary Care Provider or Urgent Care, NOT an ER. Why do they go to an ER? Because many or most Urgent Care facilities are privately owned and they are not obligated to take you without insurance or payment.

There's also the issue of some insurance policies paying 100% for ER visits, but 70% or less for Urgent Care or office visits, resulting in way too many people clogging ER's to have splinters removed and the like.

reply to post by nenothtu


If someone goes to the ER and doesn't pay their bill, the government pays for it. This is because the government stipulates that noone can be turned down for emergency services. After the government pays the bill, the hospital sells the bill to a collection agency and the collection agency hounds the patient and tries to collect the whole bill. The bill is then paid twice, once by the government and once by the patient. This should be illegal but it is happening on a regular basis.

reply to post by axslinger


Most folks who don't have a PCP don't have any health insurance at all and visit the ERs when they get sick because there is no where else to go. Many of them are employed but their employers don't provide coverage at all and they don't qualify for medicade or can't figure out how to fill out all the paperwork. Most people who collect public assistance hate it and would like to get off but the system encourages them to stay on. Also birth control information is not taught to young women these days due to religious reasons so yes, they do get pregnant and have kids and go on welfare. Duh!!

reply to post by AntiNWO


Very good point.

So add another Obama wrecking ball to the economy,
on top of everything else.

Pretty slick of them, selling Down and Out as Hope and Change.

reply to post by rickymouse


It looks like the government would try to address that, since under that system, they're getting stiffed as much as the patient.

Originally posted by otheym
reply to post by axslinger

 

Most folks who don't have a PCP don't have any health insurance at all and visit the ERs when they get sick because there is no where else to go. Many of them are employed but their employers don't provide coverage at all and they don't qualify for medicade or can't figure out how to fill out all the paperwork. Most people who collect public assistance hate it and would like to get off but the system encourages them to stay on. Also birth control information is not taught to young women these days due to religious reasons so yes, they do get pregnant and have kids and go on welfare. Duh!!

I have to disagree...

Our public school system in the US is about as anti-religion as you can get. They are teaching grade school kids about "alternative lifestyles" for God's sake. No offense but a retard should know about condoms. Honestly. Somebody is grown up enough to have sex but too stupid to know about condoms? Really? It sounds to me like you're playing victim. Don't blame the system for lack of personal responsibility.

They don't go to the ER because they have nowhere else to go, they go to the ER because they know they can milk the system and won't have to pay. I work in the industry and if you think the hospitals are prospering right now, you are sadly mistaken. Our entire organization is under a spending freeze right now, due primarily to people who believe a doctor should go to school for 8 years then give his services away to the general public. And by the way, legally the ER's DON'T have to take them. The CAN turn them away. They are only obligated to "stabilize them" if it is in fact an emergency. If somebody walks through the door with a stubbed toe that might be broken, that is NOT an emergency. They could very easily triage the patient and send them on their way without treatment. They do it primarily to avoid political fallout.

Now, imagine YOU owned a business and were forced to provide free serviced out of political/social pressure, at your own expense and as your business was sinking. How would that set with you?

Here is a perfect example of how backwards the system is...

In AZ our state version of Medicaid is called AHCCCS, pronounced "Access".

Person A walks into the ER and has health insurance through their employer. The insurance company gets the bill and determines it wasn't in fact an emergency or emergent situation. They don't cover the visit and the patient gets a bill. They have checks and balances in place in order to be solvent.

Person B walks in to the ER, same situation except they have Access. Guess what? Access pays it anyway and never questions the bill. That means I get to foot the bill. See, because Access is a state run government agency and they don't care about whose money it is or where it's coming from they have absolutely no incentive to account for those dollars. This has affected the state of Arizona significantly as well as all hospitals and caregivers.

The level of care that is provided in the ER is much higher than that of an Urgent Care. An Urgent Care can give stitches, treat your for a fever, burns, cuts, colds and flu with a PA (Physician's Assistant). An emergency room has to be able to handle cardiac arrest, stroke, diabetic shock, heat stroke and on and on. When some dumb ass goes into the ER for a broken finger, I think you can see how that's messing up the system. They are stealing resources from somebody who actually needs to get into an ER. To put it another way, if you can wait in line at the ER for 45 minutes to see a doctor, then it's NOT an emergency.

Finally, not having a primary care provider for routine visits is just plain irresponsible! If your health is really that important to you then you would find a way to see a PCP a couple times a year. Many have financing available. There are plenty of "discount plans" people can get on that help tremendously with costs.

I see the class of people in the ER and they aren't what I would call healthy living individuals. Most are ragged and torn, over-weight, likely drug and alcohol users and abusers. The bottom line is, you don't have to be wealthy to live a healthy lifestyle. I go to a church where there are many members of limited means and they all live healthy lifestyles and take care of themselves.

If state run assistance programs have the system screwed up to this point, I can only imagine how much federalized medicine is going to destroy the system.

reply to post by nenothtu


It is time to energize everyone who opposes the government giving some faceless, nameless bureaucrat with no medical knowledge, just a cost analysis sheet of if you are worth it or not, the power to decide if you get treatment or not.

I lived in Europe for many years. Socialized medicine is great if you have the cold or flu, but if you are old, infirm, or get a life threatening illness, forget it. You are more likely to die before you get your turn in line at treatment. You only get treatment in time if the bureaucrat thinks you are still of any value to society, otherwise you are placed on "wait lists" which are really "death watch lists".

WHAT CAN PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE OBAMACARE AND ALL IT REPRESENTS DO?:

Get out and vote! Drive people who believe as you do to the polls if they can't drive! Organize voting parties.
Make YouTube videos mocking what will happen as a result of Obamacare. Make them funny/poignant. Start and participate in challenging blogs stating your beliefs and encouraging like minded people to vote.
.

Take your iPhones to the polls, record and post on YouTube any and all instances of voter fraud you see before the video is confiscated.

WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T DO NOTHING - DO SOMETHING!!!!!!

ARE YOU UPSET ABOUT THE RULING?

Whatever you do, don't try and convince your liberal friends to your point of view. It won't work. The best tactic is to act humble and defeated around those who aren't going to change their minds.

Let hard core liberals think they have won. Tell them you give up and are staying home from voting. Give them every impression that Obama is a shoe in and sure to be re-elected. The more we act like that around liberals the more likely they will stay home on election day. They will talk to their friends and laugh at your defeatist attitude, yes, let them. We must now strive to make them feel superior and that they will win. That will ensure at least some of them will stay home, not vote, fat and secure they will win, until it is too late and the polls close.

It is only the like minded and those who have an open mind that you need to energize to get out and vote. We MUST secretly and quietly energize so many people that we have an army of voters who are silent but deadly.

Originally posted by links234

Well, I have done it! I have read the entire text of proposed House Bill 3200: The Affordable Health Care Choices Act of 2009.

That's nice. Now maybe he should take Nancy Pelosi's advice and read the law. Then, in three years (I guess that's how long it took him to read it), write a new article with actual information and maybe some actual quotes rather than conjecture and assumptions.

However, Nancy did not want us reading the law. She said we had to pass it to see what was in it. NOw that it was passed, we are seeing many of the things in the bill and they are not pleasant.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Can you give me an example?

Is it the increased medicaid coverage? The pre-existing conditions part? The tax break you receive for having health insurance if you make less than $60,000/year? Is it keeping children on their parents insurance up until the age of 26?

What about this bill is so unpleasant for you?

Originally posted by grandmakdw
reply to post by nenothtu

 

WHAT CAN PEOPLE WHO OPPOSE OBAMACARE AND ALL IT REPRESENTS DO?:

Get out and vote! Drive people who believe as you do to the polls if they can't drive! Organize voting parties.
Make YouTube videos mocking what will happen as a result of Obamacare. Make them funny/poignant. Start and participate in challenging blogs stating your beliefs and encouraging like minded people to vote.
.

Take your iPhones to the polls, record and post on YouTube any and all instances of voter fraud you see before the video is confiscated.

WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T DO NOTHING - DO SOMETHING!!!!!!

ARE YOU UPSET ABOUT THE RULING?

Whatever you do, don't try and convince your liberal friends to your point of view. It won't work. The best tactic is to act humble and defeated around those who aren't going to change their minds.

Let hard core liberals think they have won. Tell them you give up and are staying home from voting. Give them every impression that Obama is a shoe in and sure to be re-elected. The more we act like that around liberals the more likely they will stay home on election day. They will talk to their friends and laugh at your defeatist attitude, yes, let them. We must now strive to make them feel superior and that they will win. That will ensure at least some of them will stay home, not vote, fat and secure they will win, until it is too late and the polls close.

It is only the like minded and those who have an open mind that you need to energize to get out and vote. We MUST secretly and quietly energize so many people that we have an army of voters who are silent but deadly.

Vote for who?

The Obamney who implemented this travesty on a national level? Or the Obamney who spearheaded it and tested it out at state level?

Which do you think is disposed to change it?

Neither.

You vote for whom you please. Vote early and vote often. it won't make any difference. I've seen exactly where my vote gets us over the past couple of decades.

You go ahead and vote away.

As for me, I'm going to be busy beating my plowshare into a sword.