Greece: Workers Versus Capitalism

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posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 01:24 PM
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The elections on 6 May were a clear rejection of austerity by the majority of people in Greece. With a re-run due on 17 June, the political establishment and international capitalists are waging a fierce propaganda war to get the result they desire: a government pushing further savage cutbacks. Alexis Tsipras, leader of the left-wing coalition, Syriza, called it "a war between peoples and capitalism".


The front lines in the struggle against capitalism is in Greece. It is a battle that the Greek workers cannot afford to lose. We should be proud of the Greeks for rejecting Austerity in their recent elections. Imagine the propaganda that has been run against Syriza. The Greeks have rejected Austerity. The Greeks have rejected capitalism. The Greeks have rejected United States Imperialism. The workers of the world should be supporting the Greeks. We should not be letting the 'International Community' and MSM lies speak for us. The workers of the world should be in support of the Greeks.




The workers’ organisations and youth in Britain and the EU need to extend their solidarity to the Greek workers. The workers’ movement needs to oppose the demands that the ‘troika’ (European Central Bank, European Commission and International Monetary Fund) and others are making for Greek workers to accept more austerity. Such solidarity is part of the workers’ struggle in all countries against the attacks on them by their own ruling class and governments.



Workers of the world need to stick together. The capitalists stomp on the Greeks today. They will be stomping on us tomorrow.




Syriza (Coalition of the Radical Left), whose share of the vote leapt from 4.6% to 16.78%, emerged as the second most successful group in the elections. This tremendously positive development, which has given hope to many workers and socialists that something similar could take place in their own countries, has terrified the ruling class in Greece, along with Angela Merkel, David Cameron, Mariano Rajoy and the other capitalist political leaders. It has thrown down a potential challenge to the troika and its austerity diktat.



I agree that the Greek elections are a watershed in the struggle against capitalism. Something similar is certain to happen in other countries. People are finally turning away from traditional major political parties. People are turning away from capitalism. It is very exciting.




The stooge parties of the EU have been vomited out by the Greek people. In the last three decades, ND and Pasok garnered between 75% and 85% of the votes in each election. Their combined vote this time was a mere 32.02% – 18.85% for ND, 13.18% for Pasok.



We all need to vomit out the traditional stooge parties. The key to vomiting out the stooge parties is to vomit out the duopoly capitalist media. Capitalist media is 'state television'. MSM does everything it can to maintain the capitalist status quo. MSM cannot be trusted. MSM is establishment. If the Greeks can go around them, so can the rest of us.




Tens of thousands have emigrated, out of desperation. Many more are on the waiting lists. It has been estimated by the Greek press that there are currently 30,000 illegal Greek immigrants in Australia alone. Some have even gone to Nigeria and Kazakhstan, so desperate has life become.

Others, driven by desperation and the humiliation of the plight they find themselves in, have taken a more tragic exit. The international press featured the suicide of 77-year-old retired pharmacist, Dimitris Christoulas, who shot himself in front of the Greek parliament because of debt. The trigger was effectively pulled by the troika and its policies. Having increased 22%, the suicide rate in Greece is now the highest in Europe. One radical journalist who recently returned from Greece witnessed a Mercedes car driven into the sea by a small businessman who killed himself. Under Greek law debts cannot be passed onto the family. These are conditions reminiscent of those described in John Steinbeck’s epic novel about the US depression, The Grapes of Wrath.


www.socialismtoday.org...

It is very sad to see what is happening in Greece. It is also sad to see Greeks seems to have little public support or sympathy from the rest of us. The article I linked gives a pretty good account of the Greek crisis from a socialist perspective. It also covers the issue of The Golden Dawn which is pretty interesting. I think the guy is right about solidarity. I think that the Workers of the world need something fresh and new that we can all embrace. Something to bring us together. We need a Coalition of the Worker or something.

The capitalists push for Austerity is a declaration of war on the worker. Austerity is coming for us all. We cant afford to sit back and allow the capitalists to pick us off, one by one. Even if we can do nothing more than be informed,prepared and ready, then we must do that. The capitalists have started a war against us but we can defeat them if we are united.
edit on 9-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


United we cannot be defeated.

The mega-rich are the minority. We got the numbers.
edit on 9-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 02:13 PM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


Your kidding right...? That's such an ideologically based assertion and is totally disconnected from the real world. Yeah it be great if Greeks could continue retiring at 55 and only having 35 hour work weeks, all while have government health care, etc.

But who is paying for all that?! The Greeks are bankrupt, if it weren't for the Germans they'd be as bad off as many African nations economically. Yes they can switch there currency back to the dragma but the days of free everything are over... Communist, socialist, capitalist, facist. It's austerity or bankruptcy.



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by KnawLick
reply to post by Germanicus
 


Your kidding right...? That's such an ideologically based assertion and is totally disconnected from the real world. Yeah it be great if Greeks could continue retiring at 55 and only having 35 hour work weeks, all while have government health care, etc.

But who is paying for all that?! The Greeks are bankrupt, if it weren't for the Germans they'd be as bad off as many African nations economically. Yes they can switch there currency back to the dragma but the days of free everything are over... Communist, socialist, capitalist, facist. It's austerity or bankruptcy.


They want bankruptcy. They want out of the capitalist empire.

The Greeks work harder than any worker in Europe. The problems that Greece has have been caused by Taxpayer Backed Bonds.

The MSM lies to you. Where are you from? How will you feel when the world turns on you?

Capitalism is a dead man walking buddy.
edit on 9-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 02:41 PM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


I understand. And maybe there right. But it's not like if Greece turns away from capitalism their debt and budget deficiets are absolved. They still have to pay regardless.

And if they don't, they can say good by to borrowing money forever.



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by KnawLick
 


That is why the workers need to come together in solidarity the world over, not just in Greece. Workers need to realise they have been lied to, and have been conditioned to support something that is not in their best interest.

The only problem is the last time a country tried this, Spain, we ended up with a world war.

The capitalist establishment will do anything to destroy the working class if it becomes too powerful, and a threat to their cash cow. We are their cash cow, they need us, we don't need them.



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 02:59 PM
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It is sheer idiocy when we place MORE value on material objects such as metals or pieces of paper than accord it rightfully where it should be - humanity and human decency.

We do need those materials object as exchange of services and goods, but can such items be more important than human lives, when those few whom have the cunning and organisation could and had easily manipulated that the masses loses out more often than not, sucking them dry and then be subjected to the chains of enslavement that is against the very grains of the human spirit - responsible freedom and dignity?

At least the greeks had the courage to say enough is enough to the enslavement of their kind in the guise of 'austerity' - an unworkable one size fit all type of solution to supposedly help the greeks. It's the system that needs to be overhauled, not further emptying of the masses' wallets and toil that prevents one to experience and treasure life and love.
edit on 9-6-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by KnawLick
reply to post by Germanicus
 


I understand. And maybe there right. But it's not like if Greece turns away from capitalism their debt and budget deficiets are absolved. They still have to pay regardless.

And if they don't, they can say good by to borrowing money forever.


No more borrowing money from capitalists. They can follow the National Socialist model of Autarky. Autarky works. It turned Germany around from a basketcase to the envy of Europe in just 4 years. There are also other options. A nation can survive outside of the Empire.

The BRICS have a bank too. The IMF is not the only show in town. The BRICS bank is new but it will become an alternative to the IMF soon enough. The empire is done.

non-MSM...
grcrisis.blogspot.com.au...
edit on 9-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


Don't confuse 'national socialism' with socialism now. National socialism is fascism, not worker ownership. Germany had a mix of nationalism and capitalism, no worker ownership. In fact socialists and communists were interned.

Germany also made itself look better than it was. Jews and others they didn't like were forced out of their jobs, and replaced by unemployed Germans. Those forced out were not counted on unemployment lists. Jobs were created by the state, but they were spending more than the economy was growing. They would have ended up bankrupt. They created Mefo bills, I.O.U.'s, that allowed the government to spend on the military, without giving money to industry, putting them in even more debt.

America tried autarky and it didn't work as well.

www.dartmouth.edu...



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK
reply to post by Germanicus
 


Don't confuse 'national socialism' with socialism now. National socialism is fascism, not worker ownership. Germany had a mix of nationalism and capitalism, no worker ownership. In fact socialists and communists were interned.

Germany also made itself look better than it was. Jews and others they didn't like were forced out of their jobs, and replaced by unemployed Germans. Those forced out were not counted on unemployment lists. Jobs were created by the state, but they were spending more than the economy was growing. They would have ended up bankrupt. They created Mefo bills, I.O.U.'s, that allowed the government to spend on the military, without giving money to industry, putting them in even more debt.

America tried autarky and it didn't work as well.

www.dartmouth.edu...


National Socialism is a form of socialism. It is very similar to State Capitalism. They are hybrids.

There is no particular form of socialism that is 'socialism'.

The Nazi turn around was a miracle. If Hitler had not been preparing for war and creating the most advanced military in the world, Germany would have been in the black no problem.

It wasnt just jews that were not included in unemployment,women were also not recorded. That does not change the fact that Germany rose from a basketcase to the power of Europe in just 4 years. It was also during the Great Depression. National Socialism works. State Capitalism works. State Capitalism is pretty much National Socialism without the Autarky. Both work.
National Socialism is awesome.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
edit on 9-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)
edit on 9-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by Germanicus
National Socialism is a form of socialism. It is very similar to State Capitalism. They are hybrids.


'National socialism' is not socialism, it does not support worker ownership. It is a mixture of nationalism, state ownership, and capitalism. National socialism is fascism.

State capitalism is not socialism. Capitalism is capitalism, no matter what kind of state system it has.


Nationalization (British English spelling nationalisation) is the process of taking an industry or assets into government ownership by a national government or state.[1] Nationalization usually refers to private assets, but may also mean assets owned by lower levels of government, such as municipalities, being transferred to the public sector to be operated and owned by the state. The opposite of nationalization is usually privatization or de-nationalization, but may also be municipalization.

en.wikipedia.org...

The term socialism was around long before Hitler decided to use the term. You have to understand the times, the workers were all predominately socialist before WWII. They had a lot more power than they do now and they were demanding change. The Nazi government simply used the term socialism to appease their population to convince them to support something that was not in their best interest. The Nazi economic model was not good for the workers in the long term. All they did was get themselves in massive debt in order to build their military.

You need to understand the history mate. Hitler, along with Mussolini, were helping Franco with his fascist military takeover of Spain. He didn't help the socialists he fought against them. The system was based on Mussolini's fascism and the Völkisch movement.

en.wikipedia.org...


edit on 6/9/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 03:45 PM
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I am sure that the new soon to be elected socialist party will most certainly not adopt Hitler's economic programme to heal Greece.

That nutcase's solution was nothing more than rearming its military mights, and thus many had jobs, but at a price - when the armaments were completed - war on a global scale, or poverty will ensue as his concept was unsustainable for peace. Greece has no such capability nor does it seek to stupidly following that madman's delusion.

The new administrators style will most probably be similiar to Hindenburg's style, the real leader whom gave Germans true prosperity and a golden era of peace based upon foreign investments onto its industries till the depression hit home, and Hitler, with his lies, was embraced by a conned nation.

EU and the world now has awokened to the need for growth and realized the furtility of austerity and bailing out failed banks. Thus, a new era of growth will bloosomed upon the world, and if Greece plays its cards right, will equally benefit from it.
edit on 9-6-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by Germanicus
National Socialism is a form of socialism. It is very similar to State Capitalism. They are hybrids.


'National socialism' is not socialism, it does not support worker ownership. It is a mixture of nationalism, state ownership, and capitalism. National socialism is fascism.

State capitalism is not socialism. Capitalism is capitalism, no matter what kind of state system it has.

The term socialism was around long before Hitler decided to use the term. You have to understand the times, the workers were all predominately socialist before WWII. They had a lot more power than they do now and they were demanding change. The Nazi government simply used the term socialism to appease their population to convince them to support something that was not in their best interest. The Nazi economic model was not good for the workers in the long term. All they did was get themselves in massive debt in order to build their military.



I think you are being pedantic.


The identification of Nazi Germany as a socialist state was one of the many great contributions of Ludwig von Mises...

The basis of the claim that Nazi Germany was capitalist was the fact that most industries in Nazi Germany appeared to be left in private hands.

"What Mises identified was that private ownership of the means of production existed in name only under the Nazis and that the actual substance of ownership of the means of production resided in the German government. For it was the German government and not the nominal private owners that exercised all of the substantive powers of ownership: it, not the nominal private owners, decided what was to be produced, in what quantity, by what methods, and to whom it was to be distributed, as well as what prices would be charged and what wages would be paid, and what dividends or other income the nominal private owners would be permitted to receive. The position of the alleged private owners, Mises showed, was reduced essentially to that of government pensioners.

De facto government ownership of the means of production, as Mises termed it, was logically implied by such fundamental collectivist principles embraced by the Nazis as that the common good comes before the private good and the individual exists as a means to the ends of the State. If the individual is a means to the ends of the State, so too, of course, is his property. Just as he is owned by the State, his property is also owned by the State."

conservapedia.com...
Would it make you happy if I said 'nominally socialist' ? Or 'socialistic' ?


And it is very obvious that he used the term 'socialist' to appeal to the worker. You are not telling me anything. Hitler removed the ability to strike. Communism was a problem after WW1 and strikes caused by the communists had alot to do with Germany losing WW1. Hitler was against communism and against unions but he was not against the worker. The worker was not worse off at all. In all the years that Germany was at war, Hitler did not raise taxes on the poor. They also had social progtams that he introduced to rely on. They were not worse off until near the end of the war. Under National Socialism the worker did great. And how was it not in their best interest? Germany was a basketcase,then a power within 4 years. Hitler was in power for 12 years.

National Socialism works.

State Capitalism works.

Both are forms of 'socialism' or socialistic if you prefer.
edit on 9-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
I am sure that the new soon to be elected socialist party will most certainly not adopt Hitler's economic programme to heal Greece.

That nutcase's solution was nothing more than rearming its military mights, and thus many had jobs, but at a price - when the armaments were completed - war on a global scale, or poverty will ensue as his concept was unsustainable for peace. Greece has no such capability nor does it seek to stupidly following that madman's delusion.

The new administrators style will most probably be similiar to Hindenburg's style, the real leader whom gave Germans true prosperity and a golden era of peace based upon foreign investments onto its industries till the depression hit home, and Hitler, with his lies, was embraced by a conned nation.

EU and the world now has awokened to the need for growth and realized the furtility of austerity and bailing out failed banks. Thus, a new era of growth will bloosomed upon the world, and if Greece plays its cards right, will equally benefit from it.
edit on 9-6-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)


hmm. I dont think you have read much about National Socialism economics. It is more than preparing for war. It was genius. National Socialism cuts out the International Banker. National Socialism protects a nations assets. National Socialism protects against globalization. National Socialism is economic self sufficiency. National Socialism works. State Capitalism which is very similar also works. They are the best of both worlds. A middle ground. A happy medium.
edit on 9-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


National socialism was "great" maybe during the 1930s before total globalization. Unless you are going to forcible stop corporations from moving their factories to china or India it couldn't work today. Back when Germany succeeded with national socialism people had skill. You couldn't ship your expert welder jobs to peasant farmers in china. Now a days factories are so mechanized any simpleton can sit there and tighten that one bolt all day.

For socialism or national socialism or any variation to work again there would have to be a total realignment of how we operate. And that isn't happening without a world war.



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by KnawLick
reply to post by Germanicus
 


National socialism was "great" maybe during the 1930s before total globalization. Unless you are going to forcible stop corporations from moving their factories to china or India it couldn't work today. Back when Germany succeeded with national socialism people had skill. You couldn't ship your expert welder jobs to peasant farmers in china. Now a days factories are so mechanized any simpleton can sit there and tighten that one bolt all day.

For socialism or national socialism or any variation to work again there would have to be a total realignment of how we operate. And that isn't happening without a world war.


Oil is the biggest problem with Autarky. But even Germanys autarky was not complete. They only traded if they had to though. And they avoided trading with their competitors.

And I agree that a true National Socialism with autarky is not possible. State Capitalism is like modern National Socialism. It still works. The State has control and protects the nations interest. The state allows a market economy but reserves the right to intervene if it is for the common good. No economy can match what China has done in the recent past. China has proven that State Capitalism works well. They have come from nowhere just like Germany came from nowhere under National Socialism.

Greece could survive without the empire. Cuba has a basic autarky after the fall of the USSR and they survived. Austerity will be just as bad as Autarky but Autarky is a new beginning. Austerity is slavery and loss of sovereignty.



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


No I'm not, you are not understanding the details of the terms you are using.

Socialism is an economic system whereby the workers own the means of production. It can have a state system with a worker ran and controlled government, or it can be libertarian and have no state system, but if the workers do not own the means of production it is not socialism, period.

National socialism was a political system that was nationalistic, and allowed the private ownership of the means of production, it did not advocate worker ownership. It was not socialism. It isn't even a real political system, Hitler just made it up. The political system was fascism. When the state has the ultimate power that is fascism.

Why do people focus on the 'socialism' and not the 'national' of the term? They are contradictory to start with.
You can't have both state ownership and worker ownership. If it's owned by the state it's owned by the state, if it's owned by the workers it's owned by the workers.

Not pedantic mate, details are important. 'National socialism' is not socialism, period. They are complete opposites.

All those that claim as you do always fail to answer why Hitler used his military on the socialists in Spain? Why did he support Franco, who was also a fascist? Why did Hitler base National Socialism on the fascism of Mussolini? Hitler was part of the fascist threat the socialist were fighting against.

It's all just misunderstanding from laziness. It's easier to simply take what someone does as the definition of a term they happen to use, instead of understanding the actual definition and understanding what the person actually did. What someone does is not the definition of a label they use. Bad logic.

Also the misunderstanding of what is a political term, and what is an economic term. You can't use a political system to demonize an economic system, but economic terms have been politicized in order to do that.


Hitler's economic plan preserved private ownership of industry but subjected the economy to stringent controls. Wages were frozen at 1933 levels, so rising employment was paid for in some sense by underconsumption. Still, a job was preferable to high wage rates and no job. As the economy improved and Germany reached full employment, a price freeze was imposed in November 1936. Export of capital from Germany was prohibited.

www-student.unl.edu...

In Spain during the revolution when the true working class socialists had control...


To distribute the common stock of goods rationing or a family wage was brought in. Given the low level of Spanish agriculture and the demands of the war it wasn't possible to jump immediately to communist distribution (i.e. free goods for all) in Aragon (or most other areas) . However there was a major increase in living standards along with a greater say for everyone and a huge range of free social services.

In the village of Graus, for example, the family (which persisted as the main social form) wage meant a 15% increase in money going into households. All services such as electricity and gas were free as well as free and hugely improved medical, educational and entertainment facilities. Overall this meant an increase in living standards of 50-100%.

There were many increases in productivity and efficiency. In several areas huge new projects were made possible by collectivisation. In Esplus there were four new piggeries producing hundreds of animals and the sheep herd increased from 600 to 2,000. In Mas de Las Mantas a huge collective bakery handled all the baking previously the exclusive task of women in the home. In Alcorisa there had been a 50% increase in cultivated land and centralisation of tailor's shops brought a 66% increase in production.

flag.blackened.net...

edit on 6/9/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 08:26 PM
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People need to be able to get out of debt if they just can't pay.
Sovereigns too.

Debtor's prisons and punishing entire countries are NOT going to help anything.

If the creditors were living in worst poverty than the debtors, I'd worry about it. I don't think there's ANY possibility of that though. Pay the creditors that are in the worst situations first. If they are multi-million or billionaires,with more money than they will ever use in their lives 100 times over, they need to write the darn debts off.

That's the only way I can see any economy getting better - to see some debt written off /liquidated.

The whole financial thing - it isn't life - it's a game board that has been placed ON TOP OF life.

I have a relative who cares about money more than ANYTHING. It's a sickness.



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 08:46 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 




Socialism is an economic system whereby the workers own the means of production.

O.k. Now you are being very pedantic. Very clever. You know that socialism is the worker owning the means of production. Clap clap. Do you really think that makes you clever?

And I confuse nothing. National Socialism is an economic system. And yes,Hitler made it up pretty much (with help). Just like someone makes up every system.

National Socialism is unique. It is a hybrid. And as the link explains in my other post, the private ownership of the means of production is in name only. National Socialism is socialism. You are being pedantic. Very.

. If the individual is a means to the ends of the State, so too, of course, is his property. Just as he is owned by the State, his property is also owned by the State.

You cant just google National Socialism like most things. I am not surpised at all that you have no freaking idea of what you are talking about when you talk of National Socialism. Understanding National Socialism takes alot more than parroting from a script.
edit on 9-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by ANOK
 




All those that claim as you do always fail to answer why Hitler used his military on the socialists in Spain?

It is not Germany that will turn Bolshevist but Bolshevism that will become a sort of National Socialism. Besides, there is more that binds us to Bolshevism than separates us from it. There is, above all, genuinely revolutionary feeling, which is alive everywhere in Russia except where there are Jewish Marxists. I have always made allowance for this circumstance, and given orders that former Communists are to be admitted to the party at once. The petit bourgeois Social Democrat and the trade union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communist always will.
—Adolf Hitler, 1934

Hitler was on the right. National Socialism is right wing socialism.

Hitler hated nit picky types that think they are clever. Those kinds of people spend time complaining about the stupidist most pedantic things. Hitler was for the worker, not a bunch of budding union bosses.





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