It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Could one boycott or Occupy heaven?

page: 1
0
<<   2 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 05:07 PM
link   
People sacrificing their own physical bodies in a peaceful manner has made profound political statements, and even inspired revolutions, as one could witness recently with the "Arab Spring", which was sparked by Mohammed Bouazzi, a Tunisian street vendor setting himself on fire in December 2010.

I'm just wondering whether one could also sacrifice the spiritual body in a similar protest against unfair theology?

I think it's unfair that according to some widespread Christian theology people go to hell simply for not being baptized or "saved".

I wouldn't feel comfortable in heaven if people I knew, or people I admired were burning in hell simply because they weren't Christians.
That would plague my conscience all the time, and make heaven a mental torture in any case.

I suppose I could deal with Hitler or Stalin burning in hell for a long time.
But I can't deal with Gandhi, or Freddy Mercury or John Lennon, or Hypatia burning in hell simply because they weren't Christians.

I suppose the Westboro clan and Fred Phelps could enjoy that kind of "heaven" with glee, but anyone with a real conscience certainly wouldn't stand it for long.

So can one make a Sinner's Prayer where one accepts Jesus, but one deliberately prays at the end:
"Lord I think the current theology is unfair and unjust, so please send me to hell until You come down and fix it?"
Maybe that's what God is waiting for?

So when street preachers like Ray Comfort approach, I'd repeat their prayer, but add that I'd refuse to go to heaven because it's not morally sound, and going there while good people are burning in hell is wrong.
If everybody did that, wouldn't it make a difference?

I'd also choose not to be raptured, because it sounds like a dreadful experience being hoisted into the sky, and I'd rather be left behind.

So can one be "saved" but choose not to go to heaven and be raptured, as a kind of protest?


edit on 8-6-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 05:21 PM
link   
reply to post by halfoldman
 


The bible doesn't really say "if your not a Christian you burn in hell" that's more something the church says to scare people into adherence. The bible says basically Gentiles don't go to heaven unless they believe in Jesus. But not going to heaven and burning in hell aren't the same thing. In the world there are shades of grey, probably where this lies.



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 05:34 PM
link   
reply to post by KnawLick
 

There are many theologies, but the most widespread I find at the moment concern being "saved".

According to various verses you must admit you're a sinner and accept Jesus as your Lord and savior.
Your reward is then heaven.
But it's not a reward if so many good people are burning in hell because they didn't accept the blood of Jesus to cover the original sins of Adam and Eve that cursed mankind, and their personal sins.

So I think it's unfair, and I'd therefore refuse to go to heaven until the situation is remedied or clarified once and for all times.

It's like stuffing your face in the palace while the slaves are starving in the fields.
What kind of happiness is it being in that palace while thinking of the suffering slaves?
What conscience could rest in heaven, while others burn in hell?



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 05:39 PM
link   
reply to post by halfoldman
 


I think the unfair theology you are referring to is made by humans, not anyone in Heaven. It would be illogical to assume that church doctrine is indeed divine doctrine. Especially when there are multiple churches all saying different things, it makes it impossible.

Although the particular bit you are referring to is widespread enough to be official divine doctrine, I'm still not completely convinced.
edit on 8-6-2012 by darkbake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 05:51 PM
link   
reply to post by darkbake
 

Good point, so not only unbelievers or other faiths may burn in hell, but also rival sects of Christianity.

That makes the concept even worse, and more deserving of a boycott.
Ultimately if everyone accepted belief in their way, but rejected salvation from hell then wouldn't it force religions to come together?

And it's not good enough to say more people should be converted, and rather than a boycott of heaven Christians should have more urgency in missionizing people.

Not all people will be missionized, and not all people can be missionized equally, and many don't stay dedicated.
There are environmental factors beyond people's control.
And then one preacher says another one is wrong and a false Messiah.

Yet there is this constant terror of hell.

Well if everyone boycotted heaven on moral grounds that nonsense would stop.

edit on 8-6-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 06:21 PM
link   
So for example, here is a Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort street ministry:



Here they compare salvation to the criminal justice system.

But with a true conscience a spiritual activist might say that's not fair, and the judge here is not fair, as long as an injury to one is an injury to all.

So the activist would accept the blood and still pray to go to hell faultless, until the innocent are freed.

So one could say, "Thanks Kirk and Ray, but until Gandhi and Buddha are released from hell (by your theology) I wouldn't feel comfortable in heaven, so I'd go to hell faultless, as a political prisoner, or a spiritual prisoner of conscience. I hope you guys think about that one day, while you're living it up in heaven."
edit on 8-6-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 06:34 PM
link   
reply to post by halfoldman
 

Better yet, obliterate hell within the context of a righteous and just karma, which only Jesus sacrificial atonement can resolve, and there we are, problem solved. Hell then would simply be recieving a just judgement, and having to come 'round again and again until the opportunity for redemption is siezed upon.

A loving God doesn't send people into an eternal hell, and neither can hell serve as a motivating factor to bring about repentance, that's a disgrace because it removes the possibility of love in kind for the love first given.



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 06:43 PM
link   
reply to post by halfoldman
 


Ask Heylel (Lucifer) how that went when he tried the protest routine. My guess is it'll have basically the same affect.



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 06:52 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

He (the devil) didn't have a conscience, and from what I recall there was war in heaven, not peaceful protest.
Unfortunately asking any Biblical figure anything doesn't really work, because they don't physically exist.

But yeah sure, perhaps its a case of might is right, and into the lake you go if you protest.

Just like some earthly regimes.

Maybe it's a case of you've gotten to heaven, enjoy it, forget about your unsaved family in hell.

It was their choice, or just not part of the plan.

Perhaps one can start getting used to the idea by hating one's family attachment here on earth, Luke 14:26.
edit on 8-6-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 08:19 PM
link   
reply to post by halfoldman
 


Technically nobody goes to hell... The bible says if you accept Jesus you go to heaven. But nobody is sent to hell until after Jesus comes back and there is the day of judgement. If your name isn't in the book of life THEN your sent to hell. So those who don't accept Jesus right now don't go to hell, their just in limbo til Jesus comes back and there is the actual judgement...

... Technically speaking



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 08:40 PM
link   
reply to post by KnawLick
 

But they're still going to hell at a later stage then, technically speaking?

So if it's happening a bit later then there's time to organize now, and work out those speeches.



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 10:33 PM
link   
reply to post by halfoldman
 




Unfortunately asking any Biblical figure anything doesn't really work, because they don't physically exist.


This is not entirely accurate. There are some archs here in the flesh doing various tasks set forth by Father.



Maybe it's a case of you've gotten to heaven, enjoy it, forget about your unsaved family in hell.


Not the case. You do remember your other family members and the such. There is sadness for those who decided to take another path.



He (the devil) didn't have a conscience, and from what I recall there was war in heaven, not peaceful protest.


This is true to a point. The ones from above, don't know emotion. Very different from man. But, it is ingrained in them to do good. When Lucifer came here, he started to see how man obeyed him, so he got very curious if above would do the same, a big no no. Thus the following events occurred.



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 11:34 PM
link   
reply to post by halfoldman
 


- The Mohammed Bouazzi Tunisia thing was controlled false flag to begin revolutions in the Middle-East for the Satanic globalists with allegiances to the Vatican.

- Your understanding of Hell is incorrect (along this the majority of protestant Christianity which simply uses the BS coming from the Vatican which has its roots in the ancient Egyptian book the Amduat. At judgement, those who don't make it into the 'book of life' will simply be erased body and soul from existence forever, never to receive a second chance at life. The word 'forever' or 'eternal' is associated with the affects of the consequences of their decisions and action, not the actual length of time that it takes God to erase people out of existence. That length of time is determined by your actions and degree of deliberately leading people astray from God knowingly and your cruelty to your fellow man. Most of the 'wicked' will be erased from existence by being consumed by fire until they are ashes almost instantly.

- There are only 2 options, either being erased from existence after this current life you have now or choosing the free gift to spend an eternal life with the creator of the universe, the one that sustains your every breathe, the one that loves you more than anyone, who had you on His mind before you were even born, who will never let you down when you call upon Him, who desires to be your personal friend and know you above anything else and wishes for you to find Him and take you to be with Him in paradise forever, the place where there is no tears, no sickness, no death or discord. With Him there every power will be developed, every capability increased. The grandest enterprises will be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations will be reached, the highest ambitions realized. And still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of body and mind and soul.

The soul is not immortal...so not perpetual life outside of God is possible. Sorry to throw a wet rag on the boycott idea.

You need to be more careful in forming opinions about things where you information has been carefully influenced by the Vatican. A power and authority whom the bible designates in Revelation 13:2 comes from the Dragon [Satan] himself. Anything that can trace its roots back to the Vatican that presents Jesus in a poor way should be carefully examined then dismissed.

Characteristics of the Anti-christ from the bible absolutely fufilled by the Papacy

Exterminates 3 nations...Rome will concede to it...Political & religious in one...Will reside on 7 hills...Rules for 1260 years...Will receive mortal wound...Mortal wound will heal...Was, is not, yet is...Will blaspheme...Will expect worship...Dark Sentences...Says Jesus had not flesh...Craftiness and deceit...Preaches another Jesus...666 the number of a man...Will hate the Bible...Will kill Christians...All wonder after him...Will embrace Babylon...Will join with all kings...Will mock Jesus...No desire for women...Beast forces Christians into hiding for 1260 years...Will be a mother church...Try's changing times & law
edit on 8-6-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2012 @ 11:53 PM
link   
reply to post by halfoldman
 




Technically speaking, you all need some more understanding.

KnawLick...death a state of limbo? Death a state of 'unconscious sleep'

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Isaiah 26:14 'They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise...'

Psalms 115:17 'The dead cannot sing praises to the LORD, for they have gone into the silence of the grave.'

Psalms 146:4 'When they breathe their last breath, they return to the ground. In that very day his thoughts perish.'

Job 14:12 'so man lies down and does not rise...men will not awake or be roused from their sleep.'
-------------
222 - The Mystic realm of Death Where do the dead go? What does the Bible teach on this issue? Is there a hell? Seven heavens? Life after death? Reincarnation? Are there ghosts? Does the Bible have anything to say about spiritism? Discover the true teachings of the Bible on this often misunderstood topic.


The idea that you go to a good place or a bad place on the other side comes from the Osiris Cult ('Amduat' by Tutmose III). The bible describes the state someone enters when they die as a kind of 'unconscious sleep' where the dead 'know nothing' so this should rule out any practices that involves the consultation of dead ancestors (e.g the 'saints' as mediators for you in the R.C.C) because they aren't able to speak with you by the fallen angels are all too happy to impersonate them for you to start leading you down the wrong path. When someone dies they are essentially just 'sleeping' until either they are raised up again in the resurrection when the 'real' Jesus comes back or they remain still 'sleeping' until the Judgment takes places (which is 1000 years after the second coming of Jesus), so they are resurrected for this and made aware that from their life's record that the sentence is just. What takes place next is that they are basically erased from existence and never to be given another opportunity to live on again, that is it for them. The Bible however uses slightly more colorful language to get across the message that your soul is going to be completely annihilated just to convey the seriousness of it for you.

How long it takes for God to erase each person in the Judgment is based on their works (or what they have done in their lives). For people who have rejected following God but have been typical decent people they will be erased/destroy almost instantly, people who have been cruel to others or knowingly lead others astray then this process of destruction to completely cleanse the earth of all traces of sin will be longer for them. Essentially those in the Judgment should have nothing to fear.

- Everlasting Destruction? (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
- The Achilles Heel of the Eternal Torment Doctrine
- Revelation 14:11: Tormented forever?



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 12:23 AM
link   
reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 


Finally, I see someone who fully understands the second death is the killing of the soul. The first death is physical. No where in the bible does it state man will burn in hell forever, I don't see where people get that from. The only ones it states forever is the beast and the false prophet.



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 12:53 AM
link   
Satan tried it once. Didn't work out to well. Good luck with that though. I'll see you on the dark side of the moon my friend.

Just remember, bring a towel, and don't panic.



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 01:25 AM
link   

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by JesuitGarlic
 


Finally, I see someone who fully understands the second death is the killing of the soul. The first death is physical. No where in the bible does it state man will burn in hell forever, I don't see where people get that from. The only ones it states forever is the beast and the false prophet.


Well the Beast (of the sea) is the Vatican that is where it comes from and the 'false prophet' is apostate protestant churches still clinging on to Catholic teaching despite the reformation....you see the reformation was never completed in most protestant church theology. And there is also something called the Jesuit counter-reformation occurring as well.

Highly recommended watch..there is also a part 2 of this topic as well you can find too



Ex-Jesuit Alberto Rivera revealing Jesuit infiltration plans (10mins)
www.youtube.com... (2hr full length version of interview)



This correct teaching on hell and annihilation of the soul at the second death is almost exclusively only taught in the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. Of course it is absolutely biblical based but I am not aware of any of protestant denominations that teach this very important concept. Most of this forum with there arguments against Christianity seem to always go back to criticizing God about an eternal torment version of hell which is absolutely not biblical. The video I added to my above post is very good so be sure to check that out.



This 10 minute video present interesting information from an ex-satanist about the state of the dead and the satanic deception around it
edit on 9-6-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 01:27 PM
link   
Thanks for all the opinions on what is essentially a thought exercise, especially to the efforts of JesuitGarlic and JHill76.

It sure is interesting being exposed to more theologies than standard American evangelical preaching, the Catholics, or the predestination of strict Calvinism.

Of course to skeptics and atheists theology is not a science but merely what people sucked out of their thumbs in history, and what they still invent today.
It's all unproven and unprovable.

Nevertheless, nice to have a Seventh Day Adventist view on ATS, although I'm sure rival Christian groups have a stockpile of clips to discredit them in turn.

I'd still think it's unfathomable to think of heaven as a place where sadness is felt for those who "chose another path". Forgiveness Jhill76, but that doesn't sound much like a heaven.
But you side with JesuitGarlic in your next post in that human souls face non-existence rather than hell if they don't go to heaven.
Fred Phelps for example does find Biblical references to hell in the Bible to pepper his rants, such as the worm that eats people that will never die, and a place so hot that people will be begging for water to cool their tongues.
However, I'd rather that people who believed that bringing it to the discussion, rather than me imposing it.

Especially for slaves and oppressed people heaven also held the promise that the meek, and the least of those on earth, would get their comeuppance over the classes that oppressed them.
Heaven is a kind of social reversal.

That message is hardly seen today outside liberation theologies or Rastafarianism, which is not surprising because mainstream religions are all run by the same essential oppressors as in the past three centuries and before, and they obfuscate that message.

So if the ultra-rich Christian leaders of today make it to heaven, they will be cleaning the toilets, shoveling dirt and working the fields.

In honor of that idea, here's Peter Tosh with Downpressor Man:


edit on 9-6-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 01:48 PM
link   

Originally posted by halfoldman
So can one be "saved" but choose not to go to heaven and be raptured, as a kind of protest?


If one is "saved" then Heaven is their new state of being. A state which is at peace with themselves and the world around them. What they do with this new found state is dependent upon what is given them to do with each new day.

If you are not "saved", why not?

What are you dissatisfied with?

Are you capable of correcting that which you are dissatisfied with?

If not, then why concern yourself with it?

If so, what is stopping you?



posted on Jun, 9 2012 @ 02:53 PM
link   
reply to post by TheHolyGhost
 

The main point of being saved from most of what I gather is not to go to hell, as Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort point out above.

Sure, that can provide some relief in the sense of surety for those already indoctrinated with a belief in hell since childhood.

I don't see how hell and other people going there who don't commit major evils can bring about a state of peace.
It should be highly distressful to those with a conscience.

Can one change it if one is dissatisfied with it?
I don't know, that's begging my question really.

Job questioned God, and was told that the clay has no right to question the potter.
So politically it's a fascist God dictatorship.

On the other hand Job's rightful indignations do eventually have an effect.
God gives him a new family and ends His bet with His pal Lucifer (although Job doesn't get the old one back, but that doesn't bother Job much).

From a literary sense it does seem that God's character develops in his relationship with men.
He punishes like a jealous husband when they stray, but backtracks just as they get close to abandoning all hope in Him.
So in that sense, perhaps there is a possibility that protests might help.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<<   2 >>

log in

join