God, Free Will and Randomness at a Quantum Level

Originally posted by cloudyday
Something that might be useful to clarify is who has the free will. Like here are several different models:
(1) Buddhist-like model - just God with free will controlling everybody
(2) Christian model - God plus one soul per person per life plus angels and demons
(3) Reincarnation model - many lives per soul but each soul only controls one life at a time
(4) Fisherman model - one fisherman controlling many different fishing poles (lives) at the same time
(5) Toontown model - many entities controlling many lives simultaneously - script writers, animators, editors, and an audience to laugh at us.

edit on 8-6-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)

For the purpose of my OP, free will is being employed through concious entities that possess self-awareness. Whatever or whomever you personally feel that encompasses.

The OP was written as free will applying to humans and higher-level entities (angels, etc.).

I've also posted the rest of my OP, which is basically a response to myself. I'm hoping that may help clarify the point I was trying to make in the OP

reply to post by stupid girl

Originally posted by stupid girl
Assuming it is true that God allows randomness at a quantum level of physics, we would thus also conclude that the outcome of that randomness could only result in ultimately perpetuating to uphold all things.

When you say He/God allows randomness, do you mean, Pseudo-Randomness? Because I personally don’t believe that there is such a thing as True Randomness. One popular way to get true randomness or TRNGs (True Random Number Generators) is from physical phenomena, like radioactive source decays, which are generally described as being completely unpredictable, and therefore truly random. But what I wonder about is, what if these radioactive source decays, just exhibit and an extremely complex form, of Pseudo-Randomness, that we just can’t or haven’t figured out yet? (Rhetorical question)


So what do you mean, by God allows randomness?


Because for me, true randomness especially when applied to a quantum level, would mean something happening, without any guidance or plan to it, which I don’t believe to be the case.


- JC

reply to post by stupid girl


For me quantum mechanics and randomness is what enables free will. Otherwise the future could be determined by an omniscient being from the current state plus the physical laws. With quantum mechanics, we really can't predict anything with absolute certainty. Even the orbits of the planets are probably subject to very unlikely outcomes at the quantum level that could make them unpredictable.

Imagine beings in a metaphysical universe that can observe our universe without being observed. The events that we see as random quantum events in our universe are actually controlled from the metaphysical universe. Probably a few random quantum events inside our brain can make us choose chocolate instead of vanilla. That enables our metaphysical soul to exercise free will without breaking any laws in the physical universe.

reply to post by Joecroft


That is exactly what the book I am reading is postulating:

God's sovereignty rules out the possibility of agents acting independently of Him.

As stated by Nancy Murphy, PhD,

"If God is immanent in and acting in all creatures, then necessarily God is acting at the quantum level........the laws of quantum mechanics are only statistical and therefore not subject to violation [of interventionism]. If, as most interpreters conclude, events at this level are genuinely indeterminate, then there need be no competition between divine action and physical causation."

Which basically means God is in control and constantly interacting with creation at a quantum level. Where scientists see randomness and probabilities, they are seeing God determine how the dice fall in quantum mechanics.

The first thing that came to mind when I read this was if that were true, then wouldn't it render "free will" moot? If God was controlling the dice, then free will would ultimately be an illusion wouldn't it? If the apparently "random" events at the quantum level are all specific, intentional "acts of God", then does that negate and neuter our personal choices?

I was left with a challenge to my faith.....which most trolls in the Religion forums assume a person of the Christian faith avoid and are incapable of tackling, much less, comprehend.
My faith is challenged regularly, and it always emerges intact, and even more so.
And this challenge was no different than all those before it, I just chose to share the journey of my personal challenge and it's conclusion on an ATS forum.

A "Living God" by His very definition would be ever active in the whole of His creation sustaining, providing, judging, and redeeming all things, both in heaven and on earth. And He would be doing so true to His nature, which is good.

Originally posted by cloudyday
. With quantum mechanics, we really can't predict anything with absolute certainty. Even the orbits of the planets are probably subject to very unlikely outcomes at the quantum level that could make them unpredictable.

We can't, no, but God can.
One of the basic tenets of the Christian faith is God's omniscience and omnipotence, but most people simply take that idea for granted without ever really considering the implications of that.
When you really think about it, if everything is already determined then what is the point of giving us free will?
That is the idea that I had to work through to its conclusion. Which I shared in this thread.

Originally posted by stupid girl
...
Which basically means God is in control and constantly interacting with creation at a quantum level. Where scientists see randomness and probabilities, they are seeing God determine how the dice fall in quantum mechanics.
...

Why must God be the only person controlling the dice? Anything beyond our physical perception can control the dice and they will seem to be random. So a human soul might be controlling dice inside the human brain.

God's will is probably more like conservation laws in physics. The universe is designed so that no matter what choices we make God's will prevails?

reply to post by stupid girl

Originally posted by stupid girl
As stated by Nancy Murphy, PhD,
"If God is immanent in and acting in all creatures, then necessarily God is acting at the quantum level........the laws of quantum mechanics are only statistical and therefore not subject to violation [of interventionism]. If, as most interpreters conclude, events at this level are genuinely indeterminate, then there need be no competition between divine action and physical causation."

Nice…I like the sound of this

Originally posted by stupid girl
Which basically means God is in control and constantly interacting with creation at a quantum level. Where scientists see randomness and probabilities, they are seeing God determine how the dice fall in quantum mechanics.

Yeah totally agree, I think in most cases that it’s beyond comprehension for science, and therefore they simply end up just having to slap the label of “Random” onto most things. But IMO I think a more honest approach, is to simply use the term “unclear”, or “unknown”, rather than use the word “random”, because when they use “random”, there’re automatically ruling out any possibility, that something may have an intelligent method to it, or an extremely complex and unfathomable design behind it.

And I forgot to mention, that the other way to get true randomness numbers, is by extrapolating them, from ourselves, for example, from our apparent random mouse movements etc…

And this is where it kind of gets paradoxical, because, if we being alive, can produce randomness, then maybe the universe is alive too, and is displaying the exact same characteristic as ourselves. In other words, its random, because it’s alive! But of course, this is not how the word random, is commonly viewed/used in our everyday language.

And we still have the problem of distinguishing between whether something is truly random, or Pseudo-Random; which is a real dilemma.

Originally posted by stupid girl
The first thing that came to mind when I read this was if that were true, then wouldn't it render "free will" moot?

If God was controlling the dice, then free will would ultimately be an illusion wouldn't it?

If the apparently "random" events at the quantum level are all specific, intentional "acts of God", then does that negate and neuter our personal choices?

Taking things to an extreme level, it’s seem to me, like in order to have real “free will”, you would have to have the ability to do, and choose, from an infinite amount of options, of which only God, it would appear, is in a position to do so.

I’m not sure how much you would go along with this, but many Gnostic texts suggest that, we have a part of the divine in us, and that our spirits/souls are each connected to God.

From the Gospel of Thomas…

(3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

And from the Gospel of John

John 14:20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

John 15:4
Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

John 17:20-23
20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

I believe all the above verses from John, are all talking about things to do with the spirit. And interestingly enough Jesus uses the term “remain in me”, in John 15, which suggests to me, at least, that a part of God exist within our own Sprits/Souls.

And IMO, it is our divine spiritual connection, to God, which is what gives us our “freewill"

- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


I wish I could give you more stars.
Or a hand shake, or at the very least, a really cold beer.

reply to post by stupid girl

Originally posted by stupid girl
I wish I could give you more stars.
Or a hand shake, or at the very least, a really cold beer.

LOL

Thanks, maybe just a high five and the name of that book your reading?

I guess I kinda answered your entire OP, in one clean swoop, and even threw in Jesus words, into the bargain… sorry about that lol.

Seriously though – I think there are probably more people out there than just myself, who are aware of what I’m talking about, and maybe they would have articulated it differently, or even better than I have myself.

But aside from all the intellectual theorizing and the dialectic gymnastics, which we go through, (which is good in itself) to try and explain this stuff; there is also a real element to all this, which is meant to be experienced.


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft


Seriously though – I think there are probably more people out there than just myself, who are aware of what I’m talking about, and maybe they would have articulated it differently, or even better than I have myself.

that is was what I was looking for and was my intent for the purpose of this thread

But aside from all the intellectual theorizing and the dialectic gymnastics, which we go through, (which is good in itself) to try and explain this stuff; there is also a real element to all this, which is meant to be experienced.

True that.
The book is called "The Bible, Physics and the Abilities of Fallen Angels" by Paradox Brown.
I bought it off of Amazon. I'm almost done with it and was thinking about doing one more discussion thread on the topic of the Plank scale, string theory and the extra dimensions required by it, and as to how that all relates to manifestations and miracles still falling within the parameters of and still respectful of and true to God's creation and what we understand about the Laws of Physics.
Basically, supporting the idea that what we currently know and understand about quantum physics fully supports these phenomenon, even though God is omnipotent and can truly do whatever He desires, yet He chooses to do so within the parameters of His creation.
I don't have a foundation of knowledge on Plank & string, other than having a general understanding of the theories themselves, so I'm still a little hesitant to author a thread involving these concepts.

The book also touches on "imaginary time" versus "real time" and how a human being can perceive an extended amount of time in what is actually a short amount of linear time.

reply to post by stupid girl

Originally posted by stupid girl
The book is called "The Bible, Physics and the Abilities of Fallen Angels" by Paradox Brown.

“Paradox Brown” lol, man, that’s quite a name, never mind the book title…

Originally posted by stupid girl
I bought it off of Amazon. I'm almost done with it and was thinking about doing one more discussion thread on the topic of the Plank scale, string theory and the extra dimensions required by it, and as to how that all relates to manifestations and miracles still falling within the parameters of and still respectful of and true to God's creation and what we understand about the Laws of Physics…
…
…
…
…The book also touches on "imaginary time" versus "real time" and how a human being can perceive an extended amount of time in what is actually a short amount of linear time.

Time would become less of a barrier, in those spirit like states, like say, when you having an OBE, or astral traveling, for example. When people enter these strange states of consciousness, there maybe some form of quantum entanglement, taking place, where information is being transferred in “real time”, or possibly this "imaginary time", that your book talks about.


Science is having difficulties going deeper into examining these Planck scales. Down at these lower levels, that are smaller than atoms, (Planck scale), is where I believe that our Consciousness/Spirits reside.


And just like time, size is only relative, in terms of what your comparing it too, or the state your in!. So if our Consciousness/Spirit were inside quarks, for example, then we would generally consider that to be pretty small, but if you just kept on going down and down the scale, then our spirits would be quite big, in comparison to something smaller.

It could also be true that the spiritual realm/state, although smaller than the physical world, could actually be bigger, in terms of quantity. In other words, it’s smaller but there’s could be more of it.

So although Consciousness/Spirit, maybe smaller than our world, it permeates throughout much of it, (possibly all of it), which means, that it may have a greater width/quantity, that what we can see, or even perceive. And to top it all off, where all spiritually connected to God, which means sky, is most definitely, not the limit.


- JC

reply to post by stupid girl


An answer that was fruit of the biblequote in your OP. God is still creating all and everything. He is outside all things keeping/(holding) them together. BWAR.

Originally posted by Angle
reply to post by stupid girl

 

An answer that was fruit of the biblequote in your OP. God is still creating all and everything. He is outside all things keeping/(holding) them together. BWAR.

What is BWAR?

That was the astonishment of my sick brother posessing me mentaly.

Originally posted by Angle
That was the astonishment of my sick brother posessing me mentaly.

Why is he sick?
Are you trying to say that your brother is getting on your nerves?

LOL...I love the words you use sometimes. I would probably sound like a total idiot if I tried to speak Norwegian or Dutch... so it's probably best that we just continue to work on your English

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by Angle
That was the astonishment of my sick brother posessing me mentaly.

Why is he sick?
Are you trying to say that your brother is getting on your nerves?

You are doing such a good job. Yes, I was.

LOL...I love the words you use sometimes. I would probably sound like a total idiot if I tried to speak Norwegian or Dutch...

so it's probably best that we just continue to work on your English

You are doing such a goOOOOD JOOOOOOB.

Not BWAR, but now realy YEEEEEEEES.