God, Free Will and Randomness at a Quantum Level

Please consider the following verse, with the understanding of "He" representing "God-in-the-persona-of-Jesus":
"For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things *consist." (Col 1:16,17)

The word used for "consist" is "synistemi", which is to be understood to mean "to consist of or be composed of, to cohere, put together, hold together or band together."

Thus, we are to conclude that by His actions all things consist and all things hold together.
In which the resulting, subsequent conclusions would ultimately reduce us to the quantum level.

If we are to understand God through His literary revelation to mankind, His nature of which I personally believe can be gleaned through the **texts compiled, translated, reproduced and available to us down to the current day, then we could deduce that God's action at this quantum level is only limited insomuch as:

1. the limitation is His own self-imposed restriction, and

2. the limitation is with the intent of respecting the integrity of the entities with which He co-operates
(ie: He does not arbitrarily interfere with that which He works together with for a common purpose; He is good, thus the common purpose would be only good)

Assuming it is true that God allows randomness at a quantum level of physics, we would thus also conclude that the outcome of that randomness could only result in ultimately perpetuating to uphold all things.

God is good = Ultimate outcome of any random event can ONLY be good

Everything occurring in between the beginning and ending of the random event, even that which is utterly contrary to the result, can still only result in good.


What I am interested in discussing is:

Does this negate free will?

Does this make our existence seem pointless?

Or does this give you hope?

My personal view is no, no, yes, but I would like for others to cogitate (deeply contemplate, ponder) all the above and share their thoughts before posting my own.


References:
---*this could also be interpreted as inclusive of the organic cellular level; see Laminins (I would like to point out the lack of photographic example at this link as grossly conspicuous, which should at the very least include the following basic example I've included at the very bottom of my post)
---**for the sole purpose of fluidity of discussion, I would respectfully propose that those participating would assume validity of Biblical texts in this regard, even if that assumption is a concession of their personal opinions otherwise. To those who accept the onus to yield in that regard, I thank you in advance to your valuable contribution to this thread.
---synistemi (4291)
---Brown, Paradox. "The Bible, Physics, and the Abilities of Fallen Angels". Lexington, KY: Brown, 2011. Print.


LAMININ:

Another Laminin reference... perfect.

I'm done... lol, ATS and it's bible code!

Who wrote the books, and who's words are they?
Cough** not gods

I understand transcendent qualities, conceptual metaphors/conceptual blending, and a little bit of cognitive linguistics... I see them all over the 'biblical texts' and such. The words only go so far! The very concept threshold of the authors alone disproves most 'bible codes'.

Not that I don't, or *didn't entertain bible codes, but I swear... I'm done, based on the volume of craziness it brings to the table lol.

....
clik iT:
The Numerical Structure of DNA: How Gen 1.1, Deut 6.4 & John 1.1 Are Encoded in DNA
www.abovetopsecret.com...

There's another... code for yall to have fun with.

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS


I have no idea how you got "Bible Code" from my OP.


I am not inferencing anything even remotely related to coded Bible text in the subject of my OP.

The reference to Laminin was solely an example I felt fell within the parameter of cohesion, as noted in the OP.

reply to post by stupid girl


Can you rephrase the question? The subject is something I like to think about, but I'm having trouble understanding.

reply to post by stupid girl

1. the limitation is His own self-imposed restriction, and

2. the limitation is with the intent of respecting the integrity of the entities with which He co-operates
(ie: He does not arbitrarily interfere with that which He works together with for a common purpose; He is good, thus the common purpose would be only good)

Assuming it is true that God allows randomness at a quantum level of physics, we would thus also conclude that the outcome of that randomness could only result in ultimately perpetuating to uphold all things.

God is good = Ultimate outcome of any random event can ONLY be good

Everything occurring in between the beginning and ending of the random event, even that which is utterly contrary to the result, can still only result in good.


What I am interested in discussing is:

Does this negate free will?

Does this make our existence seem pointless?

Or does this give you hope?

My personal view is no, no, yes, but I would like for others to cogitate (deeply contemplate, ponder) all the above and share their thoughts before posting my own.

When you're right... you're right. I jumped on the Laminin thing, because I've heard it SO many times before... but back to the intent of the OP...

1. Why does said limitation have to be self imposed?
I would say that it's possible that said limitation may possibly just be a result of creation. We never have 100% complete control of anything that we create... in some way, shape, or form there are always present influences and losses of energy that we are unable control. We may be able to adapt to them, take note of them, and move with in their presence... but we are never in 'complete control'.

2. He is good?
I don't care to get on some rant, or 'deep' conversation about this notion... but is not good or bad subjective?

How would this negate free will?
Lets say creation is of cause, and the cause is love... then there is the effect. The effect is everything after...

Is there any proof that the Universe is picking up mass?

I propose(maybe ignorantly so) that all creation took place during the 'big bang' although I'm not a firm believer of it... but maybe. Everything following is just the reaction between particles and such that were created... all the way up to our very being. Which then brings an interesting question... if all things were created at once, and everything after is just transforming matter, then were does consciousness come from. Well, it must have been there during the creation, a part of creation....(but not before?)

So, what I'm getting at... in a round about way, is that freewill is extremely limited, well... that brings up the whole idea of Cartesian dualism. Are the body and soul different... is it mind and matter, or are they one in the same? I'd say that mind(consciousness) and matter are the same, and just as stated before... they are transforming matter. Of which is the result of 'effect', stemming from the cause. Which then goes to say that there is no freewill, which is odd enough... but seemingly so, at least to me.

I'm not all that big into entropy and randomness... I would even be willing to go as far to say that with in 10 years we have a whole new understanding of it. There are some interesting things coming out about synchronicity and 'quantum' physics(also including homeostasis((certain aspects)), closed, and finite universe) that when someday put together will IMO show that there is no such thing. I'm not going to explain this fully, for I can't really claim to grasp it all... as well, I have the plans for a great thread about it to be posted soon. No Spoilers lol.

IMO, our existence is far from pointless... we are the ultimate expression of creation and love. Call me bias, but I think we're the coolest and best thing ever created. It's kinda a toss up though for many, if people are to accept fate or destiny, although those two are some wild animals to try and capture for observation.

For me, I have been subject to so much 'cause' and diversity of events though out my life, that I truly enjoy everything that it has to offer. I want to experience it all... I've been hurt physically and mentally to the point in which many have just given up. Yet, something about all the things I was taught, the people who were around when I was younger... and everything else has given me the ability to endure, so I say 'screw it'... I'm going the distance.



Awesome video... check it out if you have never seen it.

and people think this song is about some car race, lol.

btw, sorry for jumping the gun... great post s&f's

Originally posted by cloudyday
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Can you rephrase the question? The subject is something I like to think about, but I'm having trouble understanding.

lol...yes.

sorry, I could have made it much simpler, but when I post a thread I try to anticipate all of the mundane, gratuitous objections that are typical in the religion forum.

Let me mull it over and repost in the morning....right now I'm exhausted and ready to shut my brain down for the day

reply to post by MESSAGEFROMTHESTARS


The limitation is self-imposed because God is omnipotent

Yes, God is good. Thank you for sparing us the torture of yet another rant about what an “asshole” God must be

I would rather not expound on the free will issue yet. I am interested in hearing other perspectives until posting mine. But, if this thread turns out like most of my other ones, this will probably be the last reply posted on it.

Creation caused by love, yes. So would you deduce that the ultimate conclusion of the cause must also be love?
Even though during the process it may seem like everything is manifesting contrary to the nature of love, and even though and in spite of the fact that love is the beginning and end?

Mass and energy are related. I believe there is a finite amount of energy in the universe, therefore mass cannot be created, it can only be transformed.
But, I’m stupid so I could be terribly wrong.

Yes everything is following the reactions from the moment of creation. Even those that may seem “random”. This would create an issue to be addressed in regard to the theory of evolution, correct?

I totally agree, we are the bomb-diggity as far as I’m concerned, or at least most of us have the potential to be such. And created for and with a definite purpose.

I LOVE CAKE AND I LOVE THAT SONG!!!

Looking forward to your thread when you get it done

reply to post by stupid girl


Man has the perception of free will. You think that thought to go to mcdonalds instead of burger king was by chance, no. Since going to McDonald's, you gave a begger a dollar to eat, he didnt have to rob that innocent lady down the street to get the funds, in turn saving her life. Many don't think of the long drawn out affects of their actions and how it holds the order together. This is just one example of many.

If you didn't adhere to the thought, your mindset would have been replaced or another sent in your place, but the order of the rest of the events would have followed. 97% of your life is written, the rest is up to you. This only holds true for believers.

Father created man so that he will have another, seperate from the angels like him. Creation is always an ongoing process, once it is complete, it starts back over again, changes will be continued to be made until it is perfected.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Man has the perception of free will. You think that thought to go to mcdonalds instead of burger king was by chance, no. Since going to McDonald's, you gave a begger a dollar to eat, he didnt have to rob that innocent lady down the street to get the funds, in turn saving her life. Many don't think of the long drawn out affects of their actions and how it holds the order together. This is just one example of many.

If you didn't adhere to the thought, your mindset would have been replaced or another sent in your place, but the order of the rest of the events would have followed. 97% of your life is written, the rest is up to you. This only holds true for believers.

Father created man so that he will have another, seperate from the angels like him. Creation is always an ongoing process, once it is complete, it starts back over again, changes will be continued to be made until it is perfected.

edit on 7-6-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

If God is perfect, then why would anything He did need to be corrected? And repeatedly so?

Are you implying that we've all lived through this before & just keep repeating the cycle over and over like the idea proposed in the movie The Matrix? I am aware of nothing that even remotely brings me to that conclusion. And for me, personally, it just seems intuitively contrary to the purpose and intention of our existence as a whole. The whole notion of a cyclical existence is largely a Gnostic tenet.

reply to post by stupid girl


Man is given the ability to think on his own and pave his own path. No, nothing like the movie the matrix. I am also not familiar with the term gnostic.

You keep using the word perfect. But, let me point out some examples from what you are given. If man is perfect, why did Father give us the flood, the tower of babel, Jesus being sent. If all was in good order, the world would not be the way it is. I am strictly talking about man and his ability to chart the course.

Man has to learn many things in order to become whole. If it takes you repeating an action or event until it is learned, it will happen. If you think man has only been here once, I implore you to ask of Father to reveal this unto self.


You won't find anything written about the cycles here, because it is not to be spoken of, at least the details. The only one who is allowed is Father and another.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Man is given the ability to think on his own and pave his own path. No, nothing like the movie the matrix. I am also not familiar with the term gnostic.

You keep using the word perfect. But, let me point out some examples from what you are given. If man is perfect, why did Father give us the flood, the tower of babel, Jesus being sent. If all was in good order, the world would not be the way it is. I am strictly talking about man and his ability to chart the course.

I said God is perfect.
Not man.
Gnosticism

I don't believe we are damned to an eternal cyclical existence, so I have no reason to seek anything written about it.
Father and another prob'ly don't mention it because it would make people want to throw themselves off of a cliff in despair.
And if it's not supposed to be discussed, how did you find out about it? And why did you mention that which is not to be mentioned?

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Man is given the ability to think on his own and pave his own path. No, nothing like the movie the matrix. I am also not familiar with the term gnostic.

You keep using the word perfect. But, let me point out some examples from what you are given. If man is perfect, why did Father give us the flood, the tower of babel, Jesus being sent. If all was in good order, the world would not be the way it is. I am strictly talking about man and his ability to chart the course.

I said God is perfect.
Not man.
Gnosticism

My point stands. Corrective action had to be taken because of the actions of others. Many can't seem to grasp even though Father is perfect, others whom he created are not. If this was the case, the others would have never followed Lucifier to below.

Corrective action is always being done. Father gives each a measure, some take it too far, some don't take it far enough. Thus the need for him to continually step in. It does not mean he isn't perfect, but the end result will be perfect in his eyes.

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Man is given the ability to think on his own and pave his own path. No, nothing like the movie the matrix. I am also not familiar with the term gnostic.

You keep using the word perfect. But, let me point out some examples from what you are given. If man is perfect, why did Father give us the flood, the tower of babel, Jesus being sent. If all was in good order, the world would not be the way it is. I am strictly talking about man and his ability to chart the course.

I said God is perfect.
Not man.
Gnosticism

My point stands. Corrective action had to be taken because of the actions of others. Many can't seem to grasp even though Father is perfect, others whom he created are not. If this was the case, the others would have never followed Lucifier to below.

Corrective action is always being done. Father gives each a measure, some take it too far, some don't take it far enough. Thus the need for him to continually step in. It does not mean he isn't perfect, but the end result will be perfect in his eyes.

edit on 7-6-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

????????????????
wtf? of course your point stands. I'm not disagreeing with you. Did you not read what I wrote?
You're just repeating what I said.
Maybe the cycling is making you confused.

reply to post by stupid girl

I don't believe we are damned to an eternal cyclical existence, so I have no reason to seek anything written about it. Father and another prob'ly don't mention it because it would make people want to throw themselves off of a cliff in despair. And if it's not supposed to be discussed, how did you find out about it? And why did you mention that which is not to be mentioned?

I did not say it is eternal, just until he says it is finished. Yes, many things are not mentioned because it would open up to too many questions, and somethings are better left unsaid as many would be confused or in despair as you say.

From: jhill76 You won't find anything written about the cycles here, because it is not to be spoken of, at least the details.

I said the details are not to be mentioned, here or above, not even the angels in heaven can speak on the details. For example: What was it like before, or what did they wear, etc.

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Man is given the ability to think on his own and pave his own path. No, nothing like the movie the matrix. I am also not familiar with the term gnostic.

You keep using the word perfect. But, let me point out some examples from what you are given. If man is perfect, why did Father give us the flood, the tower of babel, Jesus being sent. If all was in good order, the world would not be the way it is. I am strictly talking about man and his ability to chart the course.

I said God is perfect.
Not man.
Gnosticism

My point stands. Corrective action had to be taken because of the actions of others. Many can't seem to grasp even though Father is perfect, others whom he created are not. If this was the case, the others would have never followed Lucifier to below.

Corrective action is always being done. Father gives each a measure, some take it too far, some don't take it far enough. Thus the need for him to continually step in. It does not mean he isn't perfect, but the end result will be perfect in his eyes.

edit on 7-6-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

????????

????????
wtf? of course your point stands. I'm not disagreeing with you. Did you not read what I wrote?
You're just repeating what I said.
Maybe the cycling is making you confused.

You said:

If God is perfect, then why would anything He did need to be corrected?

This is an implication, that you did disagree. When he put man here to live, many things were corrected. (The Garden, Tower of Babel [Man was becoming too advanced inside of the set time], etc.)

You won't know of what is was to be because all you see is what happened and what is written for you now, if that makes sense. You were not privy to the original plan, so of course you will ask why did anything have to be corrected.

reply to post by stupid girl

Please consider the following verse, with the understanding of "He" representing "God-in-the-persona-of-Jesus":
"For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him: And He is before all things, and by Him all things *consist." (Col 1:16,17)

The word used for "consist" is "synistemi", which is to be understood to mean "to consist of or be composed of, to cohere, put together, hold together or band together."

I stopped here and will read the rest. So far, really nice. I didn't know that word (synistemi) was defined as such.

Cohesion - the act or state of cohering, uniting, or sticking together.


1 Colossians 1:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

reply to post by stupid girl


Amazing OP! Great stuff.

1) Does this negate free will?

Free will is negated by law. All actions have an equal and opposite reaction. If I act for the benefit by giving, reward is created. If I act in a negative way and take something, a debt is created. I must pay the debt. The debt is also spread out to others, making some actions negative on a broader state of matter than mine. In the end, reality is governed. My actions do not change the territory, just my map of the territory. We are all affected by choice, the choices of others and providence. There is no chance. Chance is governed by providence (God's choice as one of the others). His choices are governed by the same law.

2) Does this make our existence seem pointless?

No. The light shines in a dark place. The shadow can be seen by the light. The light can also remove all shadows. If the light is too bright, I cannot see. That is, unless I have adapted to the light and not withered by it. The garden is the key to understanding. A gardener must suffer the hoe. Fruit is produced or the garden withers for too much or too little water; too much or too little light. Light is understanding. Water is immersion into the water of reality. There are five baptisms. Earth (Egypt - Iron Smelting Furnace), Air (Breath / Word), Water (baptism into reality), Fire (Trials). Water puts out fire. Spirit is the reward at the end. Overcoming the other four is a matter of watching the garden and how it grows. Earth contains the seed. The air is exchanged to produce the oxygen. The earth and the bacteria are necessary. Water falls and rises. Again and again. You must be born again. Fire evaporates water. Water puts out fire. It all depends on how they are used and where we find them. Fire brings new life in a forest. The seed is information (Word). Night is good for plants. The light is good in measured doses. Water must be replenished.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

3)Or does this give you hope?

Acts 17

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

32 When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.”

Plants are expected to produce fruit. Weeds are removed. Any Gardner will tell you the secrets.

Link in my signature.

reply to post by stupid girl

Yes, God is good. Thank you for sparing us the torture of yet another rant about what an “asshole” God must be

Interesting... considering you have absolutely no idea about my perceptions or opinions of what or who 'God' is, it's hmmm...(being nice) that you imply that I was going to rant about 'God' being an "asshole". I'll leave it at that.

I would rather not expound on the free will issue yet. I am interested in hearing other perspectives until posting mine. But, if this thread turns out like most of my other ones, this will probably be the last reply posted on it.

You're up to bat... I only touched base on freewill, I have much to add... but I will play the 'Escapist' card, and in similar fashion allow you to present you case, as it is your thread...

Creation caused by love, yes. So would you deduce that the ultimate conclusion of the cause must also be love?

Mostly yes... there are many attributes that are associated with love, that are also to be found in creation. Even as we think that we are 'creating' today, said creations are undoubtedly out of 'Love' or a misconception of such which is due to bias.

Even though during the process it may seem like everything is manifesting contrary to the nature of love, and even though and in spite of the fact that love is the beginning and end?

Not to misconstrue what you said, but I will say this. Nature is not love, the creation that allowed for nature to manifest is love. Creations out of said nature encompass both love and hate, from creation to decay.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Although I don't care to get in an argument about what is meant by pattern through out the texts, for it shifts between books and authors... also, don't care to directly quote from only Abrahamic religions.

To answer the question... yes, I do think love is beginning and end. As well, that every end is the CREATION of a new beginning.

Mass and energy are related. I believe there is a finite amount of energy in the universe, therefore mass cannot be created, it can only be transformed.
But, I’m stupid so I could be terribly wrong.

This is my understanding, or theory as well. Although many would argue against it, there are many that also support this idea. Unless someone PROVES otherwise, I will stick to the notion that we live in a finite universe. As well, that there is an infinite amount of possibility over time.

Yes everything is following the reactions from the moment of creation. Even those that may seem “random”. This would create an issue to be addressed in regard to the theory of evolution, correct?

No, no, no, no, no... lol. That IS the theory of Evolution, adaptation and responding to surroundings(other influences). I've studied and researched A LOT in regards to Evolution, if anyone find this notion incorrect, I would love to hear it. Not that I'm right... but seriously want to know.

I totally agree, we are the bomb-diggity as far as I’m concerned, or at least most of us have the potential to be such. And created for and with a definite purpose.

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by cloudyday
reply to post by stupid girl

 

Can you rephrase the question? The subject is something I like to think about, but I'm having trouble understanding.

lol...yes.

sorry, I could have made it much simpler, but when I post a thread I try to anticipate all of the mundane, gratuitous objections that are typical in the religion forum.

Let me mull it over and repost in the morning....right now I'm exhausted and ready to shut my brain down for the day

Something that might be useful to clarify is who has the free will. Like here are several different models:
(1) Buddhist-like model - just God with free will controlling everybody
(2) Christian model - God plus one soul per person per life plus angels and demons
(3) Reincarnation model - many lives per soul but each soul only controls one life at a time
(4) Fisherman model - one fisherman controlling many different fishing poles (lives) at the same time
(5) Toontown model - many entities controlling many lives simultaneously - script writers, animators, editors, and an audience to laugh at us.

Okay, I am posting the conclusion to my OP before reading the rest of the replies:

My personal view is no, it does not negate free will. But I can see how someone could perceive it that way.
I do not belive that it negates free will because we are still provided the same parameter of opportunities of self-expression and self-discovery, regardless of the nature of the outcome.

Thankfully, we can rest in the fact that God's nature is good, therefore the outcome will ultimately be good---no matter how dismal any particular point or chain of events in the process itself may seem.

I also contemplate that outcome even including the ultimate extinction of things created in the process that are contrary to His nature, even if simply for the fact that they cannot exist in the ultimate outcome.
If the outcome is good, then nothing that is NOT good can nor will remain. Nothing contrary to God's nature can nor will exist upon completion of the random event.

And I think that still leaves the possibility that said extinction takes place as a matter of the natural process of the event.
Meaning, God's "judgment" and the notion of that judgment having been decreed since the beginning, is because the ultimate outcome of the event can only be just.
So whatever exists or occurs during the process that is contrary to the outcome, must be consumed through the machinations of the process naturally playing itself out.

Nor do I believe that the idea presented in my OP renders our existence pointless.
It is not pointless because WE EXIST versus WE NEVER EXISTED.
We have been given the gift of conciousness and self-awareness.....we have been given the gift of OUR SELF.
We are here.
We are aware of ourselves.
We are given a lifetime of experiences that entail the expression of conciousness.
We are given an environment conducive to our specific conciousness.

At times I have wondered, "Why are we here? What is the point? If God made us, who made Him? Why does He even exist? If God never existed, then what? Nothingness? But nothing is still something, insofar as nothing being the lack of something.

If there was never something, nor the potential of something, then technically, "nothing" could not be possible because it is defined by the comparative potential of there being "something".