Capitalism Is For Dummies.

Originally posted by Germanicus
A capitalist government prefers to sell us out to corporatists and tax us both.

Why is it socialist governments who opt to bail-out corporations? Corporatism is monopolies, and capitalism rejects monopolies. Capitalism opt for lower taxes because it opts for lower public spending.

Originally posted by Germanicus
Does the private sector really push technology?

Yes, it's the biggest driver of technology, because it rewards innovation not just from tending to the requirements of society but in the most efficient, most affordable way.

Originally posted by Germanicus
The private sector is almost always propped up by our tax dollars.

Corporate monopolies would be rejected under capitalism. Losses are crucial for capitalism to work because it sheds inefficiency. I find it strange you criticise the use of tax dollars when most, if not all of socialism is funded from it.

Originally posted by Germanicus
Socialism does not look to profit from us. Socialism looks to facilitate an environment where we all prosper.

Capitalism looks to do the same thing but it actually achieves it. Putin engaged in capitalism, enabled business and encouraged investment, Russia's productivity doubled and poverty halved within a decade.

Originally posted by Germanicus
Socialism would encourage an efficient an resourceful society that has direction.

Capitalism by it's very nature guarantees efficiency without the need for politicians or guess work.

Originally posted by Germanicus
Our govenments should not have debt.

The only debt we do have was incurred by socialist schemes. Capitalism rejects the need for welfare schemes and rejects the need for any significant public debt.

Originally posted by Germanicus
A system that relies on exploiting peoples basic needs for no good reason is flawed.

Capitalism is about tending to people's needs in the most efficient, most affordable manner. Those who achieve this are rewarded with profits. Those who can't achieve this are punished with losses. Under socialism, there is no reward and no punishment, it's just guesswork at a disgraceful cost to taxpayers when they get it wrong.

Originally posted by Germanicus
A capitalist government is not interested in Public Works projects that will offer geniune benifits and solutions.

Who would fund public works without capitalism? Who will generate the taxes required to pay for it? Capitalism is the good guy. Socialism is a leech.

Yes, Capitalism is for dummies. The fact that so many people would rather bathe in a pool acid than move away from Capitalism juts goes to show how unintelligent this species really is. Greed is Generosity, Social Welfare is Chaos. sigh.

reply to post by Germanicus


You forget that we are in fact living in a corpocratist society, where a few corporations have all the power and the government, through socialist ideas, seeks to restrict small businesses giving all power to a few giant corporations...

If we had a free market/capitalism there would be several companies competing with each other, and there would be at least one company trying out the idea you just gave...

Socialism in essence seeks to "RATION" all infraestructure...

It gives power to a few individals who make up excuses to ration everything "for the good of the collective" or "the good of the revolution" or "the good of Earth"... (or they make up any other excuse to ration, and restrict individual rights)

If you want to know what happens in socialist nations just read about Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini... Yes, there were certain things that were improved but they were improved at the cost of taking away the rights of minorities (which were millions of people) and heavily restricting the rights of the mayority "for the good of the collective"...

That's how "socialism thrives"...

Socialism/communism is for dummies who are totally ignorant of world history...

reply to post by Germanicus


Enjoy your utopia. I'm opting out, right here up front in front of everyone. I'm already full to bursting with pie in the sky, and couldn't swallow another bite of it.

I do have to ask you if you were the product of a socialist education system, however, because there are some serious flaws with your numbers. My kid pointed them out - she want's to know, for example, if you actually said "poof!" when you magically reduced 30000 dollars to 5000 dollars, and who eats the discrepancy between your 5000 dollar loans and the 3600 dollars paid back @100 dollars a month over 3 years.

I'll just keep what I work for, thanks. You can have my share of the pie in the sky - but not the rest of my stuff that's real...

Originally posted by albertabound
Yes, Capitalism is for dummies. The fact that so many people would rather bathe in a pool acid than move away from Capitalism juts goes to show how unintelligent this species really is. Greed is Generosity, Social Welfare is Chaos. sigh.

The inmates are running the asylum. The loons lecturing the sane on the evils of capitalism while they point to a heavily regulated market that has shut down sole proprietorship and given rise to corporatism and the loons scream its greed, its greed, it must be capitalism. Sigh.

Haven't read the whole thread... so likely someone else has pointed this out:

"Capitalist" as it exists in our cultural "meme", is not capitalism. It's corporatism or "fascism".

Capitalism is when "George and Hazel" take a big chunk of the money they have saved (yes, capital), and risk it to build a business that solves problems for people. ALL business, is solving problems for people. Capitalism is NOT the problem. A severe deficit of critical thinking in the U.S. is the problem... and makes us a country of suckers for all the Newspeak shoved into our craniums.

It's part of the propaganda, and the "corporate world" puts up with it, because it serves them, for everyone to see ALL corporations as "greedy capitalists". If folks actually understood, that those businesses that have done evil and looted the public trust and treasure, have in fact done so because they work with the professional political class to do so, then it might shift the definitions a bit. By definition, the evil doing corporations are not "capitalist"... the players in those companies are making money off the skin other have in the game, and using debt leverage to extract their "loot" from the enterprises.

Unfortunately, it's a fact, that if you repeat a lie without letting up, and marginalize anyone who questions the lie using the "emperors new clothes" scam ("only unsophisticated and low IQ folks question XYZ... so if you question it, you're stupid and of low intellect"), you can make a huge number of people believe the lie as fact.

Then, you can leverage the resulting manufactured consent in a "democratic" way to get what you want.

That is, basically, the whole game...

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard
reply to post by Germanicus

 

Capitalism is in direct opposition to democracy.
...

Of course it is, and you have no idea what democracy really is... You have been brainwashed by the media, owned by the socialist/fascist elites, to embrace democracy and socialism...

Under a socialist/communist system the STATE dictates how much you really need to eat, and what you can eat, as well as deciding what you need, and "for the good of the collective" you are not allowed to have what you want.

Under socialism/communism

"The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism." Karl Marx.

Which means that if you disagree with anything about socialism/communism "YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF THE STATE/REVOLUTION"... This is part of the "permanent revolution".

Even Karl Marx also stated that

" Democracy is the road to socialism." Karl Marx.

And even Lenin said that

"The goal of socialism is communism. Vladimir Lenin

www.brainyquote.com...

This is the reason why these days "COMMUNISTS" are trying to blur the differences between socialism and communism, because in truth their goal has always, and will always be COMMUNISM.

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard
reply to post by Germanicus

 

Capitalism is in direct opposition to democracy.

Yes, it is - that's probably it's most endearing quality. You can let everyone else on the planet make your decisions and do your thinking for you if you like, but I'm going to keep my options, thanks.

Democracy tries to create a level playing field and make us all equal under the law.

Negative. Democracy just gives other folks the OK to do your thinking for you. It's got nothing at all to do with leveling playing fields, it just fields everyone so that the individual gets lost in the crush. I'm already equal under the law within this Republic. I don't need a democracy for that.

Capitalism creates division and grants special advantages to those who have the money.

We can do better but not sure what the solution is. People are so caught up in the promises of capitalism (greed and materialism) that they wont want to live a simpler life based on the sharing of resources.

We may be doomed.

I'll match you blow for blow on which of us has a simpler life, and I'm a thorough capitalist. Your brand of capitalism seems to require greed, and that's a bad sign - the greed you seek will come, whether capitalist or socialist. It's just a matter of how many people you can get the government to arm-twist on your behalf. Socialism has a wider base of twist-ees, requiring a more heavy-handed government to extract their wealth from them..

Enjoy your dacha.

Capitalism will not work in the long run. Like a poster posted about the Roman's and their decision to not use technology in their possession so that people out there would have a job.

My current job is in the technology sector. Specifically the automation of processes in the largest sector of employment in this country. In other words it's my job to structurally unemploy a massive amount of people within the next 30 years.

By the time we are done and others that are doing what were doing for all other sectors. 85% of you will have no job. There will be no need for you. Shoot... If were not careful we might automate ourselves out of own jobs with in our lifetime.

It's the shareholders of my company and others like it that will control the wealth. I'm blessed that I have the positions and stock options I have. But I don't think it's right.

I am 27 years old and have no children yet. But I will be very worried for them when I do.

Originally posted by Germanicus

In Fuedal Japan the merchant call was at the bottom of society. Why? Becuae they produced nothing of real value. Merchants are parasites. I guess you think these people are 'job creators'? And the japanese had actors and bards below even the merchants.

Best argument I've ever seen to not develop a time machine and return to feudal Japan.

I guess you think 50 Cents is contributing to society?

I don't care if he does or not. I don't have to buy his garbage. I'm free to not do that under capitalism. People who do want to buy it are also free to do so. it seems there are some who must think he IS contributing to society.

The japanese were not socialists but they knew like socialists do that generating wealth is not always contributing to society.

Correct - they were "feudalists", which is pretty much the same structure as socialism, but under a different name. Funny how you mention the stratification of their society just above as if you think that's a good thing. What happened to the good old days when socialists thought a "classless" society was possible? Did they grow up and start thinking like the big kids?

The mega rich that you worship are putting a strain on society.

They might be straining you, but I hardly ever even notice them. No strain here.

Unless you are a Banker or a Corporatist,you are a worker.

I'm also a negotiator, and can think for myself what my work is worth. If I don't like the pay, I don't do the work. If they don't like my price, they can hire someone else. it's a win-win.

Socialism is about rewarding those of us that contribute and about realistic rewards.

That seems not to be the way it ever works out in actual practice. It's about "rewarding" everyone, deserving of reward or not. Then the system goes broke from supporting non-productive leeches and the oligarchs running the scam. The end. it drags everyone but the operators down to the same poverty level, then zaps 'em while they're down.

Socialists are not going to steal your pot of gold.

Damn right they're not - not as long as I'm still breathing.

I think you have trouble with the word inequity. Wage disparity will be addressed under socialism.

You mean "imposed". Artificial wage structures are imposed.

Bureaucrats tax the heck out of you and tell you what to do under socialism.

I seriously can't believe you just said that, but I agree that is precisely what happens, and I want no part of it.

Originally posted by Germanicus
What is the State for if not to meet our needs?

The purpose of government is to govern, as the name implies. It is not to run soup kitchens.

It's there to meet our governing needs, not every little "need" your heart desires. People screaming for government to bite off more than it can chew is what got us in this mess to begin with.

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
There is no such thing as a capitalist government

If the government were made of people who were about people and not power, a capitalistic government would be a good start. It could compete with the private sector to provide necessities. If it had the lowest prices, the most flexible hours, and the best pay and benefits, it could rescue the citizens from the private sector. However, our government is only about increasing its power. Most people with the funds to help bring about an automated utopia are only interested in increasing their own power. Most who don't have the funds are only interested in increasing their own power. We "socialists" will not get any help.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Self sustaining houses or small farms are a threat to capitalism.

This is the only thing that will save us. If the concept caught on, it would be a huge threat to TPTB. They need us to play their game for the game to run.

We are prevented from going off grid and living together on self sufficient communes that embrace and develop new methods and technologies by our opinions of each other. We have been divided. This is by design. As long as we are divided, we are no threat. TPTB don't even have to keep tabs on us. We will hold each other back.

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
There is no such thing as a capitalist government

If the government were made of people who were about people and not power, a capitalistic government would be a good start. It could compete with the private sector to provide necessities. If it had the lowest prices, the most flexible hours, and the best pay and benefits, it could rescue the citizens from the private sector. However, our government is only about increasing its power. Most people with the funds to help bring about an automated utopia are only interested in increasing their own power. Most who don't have the funds are only interested in increasing their own power. We "socialists" will not get any help.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Self sustaining houses or small farms are a threat to capitalism.

This is the only thing that will save us. If the concept caught on, it would be a huge threat to TPTB. They need us to play their game for the game to run.

We are prevented from going off grid and living together on self sufficient communes that embrace and develop new methods and technologies by our opinions of each other. We have been divided. This is by design. As long as we are divided, we are no threat. TPTB don't even have to keep tabs on us. We will hold each other back.

I think what he meant is that many people in this thread keep mistaking economic models for types of governance. Granted, any government is directly affected by the economic models at play in it's arena of authority, but the government decides what economic models or parts and conglomerations of economic models best fit the bill. These are always morphing into something new as the economies are in a constant state of flux.

reply to post by Opportunia


I get it, but it's a great introduction to my fantasy. We lazy Godless socialists get what we want through the government competing in the market How could the self righteous then cry fowl?

reply to post by Germanicus


The old tirade of vs ism's the disparities on the minds of the people who know only what they have been thought and seen, and most importantly what they have been thought to think and see as. Your arguing with the horse at the water hole why he does not drink, merely a matter of perspective and egos. But more to the point a matter of timing, because the horse is just not thirsty, when it is it will drink.

Every dog has his day, the truth is all will fail in the end. So ya the whole of history can only be littered with failures for progress to be achieved, because that is how we judge our current predicaments, by the wow's and failures of the past, the talking and hot wind being blow around the whole he said, she said, they said, who has the bigger house and the greenest lawn, is just water cooler talk.

You see what your arguing about is "words" a human is no different then from a robot, and like a robot it to is programmed. So ya capitalism isn't going to fail, it did fail in fact the whole time it was not even capitalism people just thought it was, just like they think its a democracy, or a republic, or a autocracy, or any other such thing that takes there fancy in any given age. Each and all are merely an expression into there psyche and soul. People are just slow they will get it in a few years that the world they thought they lived in was all in there heads. Just like they always have.

In fact all those who call themselves capitalists today and in the past are more akin to socialists or communists then actual capitalists in the very meaning of the word. For you see you can call yourself anything you want as long as you have majority consensus that you are that, in fact its exactly like selling a record all you need is to convince a whole bunch of people that its actually good music, Or like you said 50 cent, at best to me he is a bellow average musician. But with the power of the media and if you attach yourself to certain big huplas going on, even the crappiest of things can become the best seller, a lot of it is just attaching yourself to fads and the coolest things on the scene going on. In the end its all a matter of opinions, and the opinions/tastes of the masses.

Humanity is a species prone to delusions, how else can they hold two contradicting facts in there heads and believe them both. So ya basically all of the great capitalistic ventures are the result of socialistic measures. And if you repeat something long enough no matter how false or stupid it becomes true, especially if you do it day in day out non stop. And what do you think is going on on the TV...Exactly that. You know why there still arguing about the same old # they been arguing for the past hundred years...Because there not trying to solve or move on to anything, there trying to control and install mass mental pictures of how the world is. Like I said, programming. Now people cant you all just return to your daily scheduled programming.

The words are just window dressing, something for the sheep to look at as they chew the cud. Wana know the truth, and since you seem to admire the samurai structure of old japan. Well back when warrior class ruled things, we had warrior tyrants. And back when the priestly class ruled things we had priestly tyrants. And now in the age of merchants we have mercantile tyrants. And off-course there is the flip side of the coin in that as well, since not all warrior structures were tyrannical and not all priestly structures were tyrannical and not all mercantile structures are tyrannical...But more oft then not if left to there own devices there is only one place it will and can go. Corruption and degeneration.

Because your more then dealing with words such as socialism and capitalism, your dealing with a hive of people and minds, to look at it in terms of words and there singular meaning is to see only a quarter of the picture. The words are just things they have been thought to believe mean something, like bots, not all that much different then being programmed. What I am saying is, One day when there little worlds fall apart they will need to really take a look around and ask themselves "why" is this happening. Till then its all just water under the bridge.

And the reason why capitalism works so well, is because it adheres to humanities strongest emotion and what they at there core crave and are the most, over all the other things that they are. And that thing is..Greed. Simple really, you make a society and system based on greed, so that way you know were the weakest link in the chain is, and you know were it will go down the river of history, and as such you can direct its course.

So ya I agree with some things you said bro, so carry on my wayward soldier, we shall see if you change any minds.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
Humanity is a species prone to delusions

I was just thinking earlier how it seems to be hardwired. If you do manage to escape this condition, you'll fall into one of two groups: the ruling class or the outsiders. Even the outsiders like to get in on the action. Care to make a wager?

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard
Capitalism is in direct opposition to democracy.

Jaw droppingly stupid post. The way you spend your money IS your vote. None of the evil corporations would exist if people didn't purchase their products or services.

reply to post by gentledissident

If the government were made of people who were about people and not power, a capitalistic government would be a good start.

Capitalism requires a free and unregulated marketplace, massive competition, and a currency backed by actual wealth, i.e. precious metals, so that all can agree on the value of that currency. While the third tenet can involve government, and in the U.S., Constitutionally speaking it is Congress who has been granted the authority of currency, but the regulatory power granted Congress is anti-capitalistic, and governments just cannot resist implementing their licensing schemes which has the effect of reducing competition.

What I am saying is that under capitalism, the government would be wholly uninvolved in the market and their only valid part in the system would be to issue currency, but even that is not necessary under capitalism.

There is no such thing as a capitalist government.

Is there any proof other to show that socialism works in the long run like a "capitalist" government has?
Hint : sweden doesn't count.
Sure it sounds great but it just doesn't work out like that.

ETA: Its funny how practically everyone who has a interest in international politics and other similar subjects has as some point thought to themself socialism sounds like the way to go.

Originally posted by dasman888
Haven't read the whole thread... so likely someone else has pointed this out:

"Capitalist" as it exists in our cultural "meme", is not capitalism. It's corporatism or "fascism".

Capitalism is when "George and Hazel" take a big chunk of the money they have saved (yes, capital), and risk it to build a business that solves problems for people. ALL business, is solving problems for people. Capitalism is NOT the problem. A severe deficit of critical thinking in the U.S. is the problem... and makes us a country of suckers for all the Newspeak shoved into our craniums.

It's part of the propaganda, and the "corporate world" puts up with it, because it serves them, for everyone to see ALL corporations as "greedy capitalists". If folks actually understood, that those businesses that have done evil and looted the public trust and treasure, have in fact done so because they work with the professional political class to do so, then it might shift the definitions a bit. By definition, the evil doing corporations are not "capitalist"... the players in those companies are making money off the skin other have in the game, and using debt leverage to extract their "loot" from the enterprises.

Unfortunately, it's a fact, that if you repeat a lie without letting up, and marginalize anyone who questions the lie using the "emperors new clothes" scam ("only unsophisticated and low IQ folks question XYZ... so if you question it, you're stupid and of low intellect"), you can make a huge number of people believe the lie as fact.

Then, you can leverage the resulting manufactured consent in a "democratic" way to get what you want.

That is, basically, the whole game...

edit on 7-6-2012 by dasman888 because: spell correct

I see someone's been paying attention...nicely put sir