Capitalism Is For Dummies.

reply to post by Germanicus

Dude I dont even know you. I came across you in two threads I think. And I have read a couple of your threads.

No where, ever, have you read me writing any defense of corporatism, you just made that crap up, which is why I am calling you a liar. Indeed, in this very thread I have made it clear that corporations have nothing at all to do with free markets, and yet you still wound up claiming that I defend corporatism.

Capitalism - work hard for what you got

Socialism - work hard to take what others have .. oh and not working '9-5'

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Germanicus

 

Dude I dont even know you. I came across you in two threads I think. And I have read a couple of your threads.

No where, ever, have you read me writing any defense of corporatism, you just made that crap up, which is why I am calling you a liar. Indeed, in this very thread I have made it clear that corporations have nothing at all to do with free markets, and yet you still wound up claiming that I defend corporatism.

I am not a liar. I said that the only ones defending corporatism are capitalists like yourself. By defending capitalism,you defend corporatism in my opinion. Capitalism leads to corporatism. The capitalistic Romans fell into the trap. Mercentilism lead to companies like the East India Company that exploited people. And we get Trusts. Finally we get Multinational Banks and Multi National Corporations that exploit us all. Most of the corporations come from Delaware. They can be addressed within your constitution as far as I can tell. I am glad you are against corporatism and that we agree. In my opinion capitalism will lead to corporatism. Socialism can help us guard against the Corporatism.

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard
reply to post by Germanicus

 

Capitalism is in direct opposition to democracy. Democracy tries to create a level playing field and make us all equal under the law. Capitalism creates division and grants special advantages to those who have the money.

We can do better but not sure what the solution is. People are so caught up in the promises of capitalism (greed and materialism) that they wont want to live a simpler life based on the sharing of resources.

We may be doomed.

Here again....Democracy is NOT a government where ALL are equal and is NOT the type of government the USA has. The USA is a REPUBLIC. I found this great explanation of the difference: A republic is a government ruled BY THE PEOPLE where the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think, a Democracy is a government ruled by Majority rule or Mob rule. In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.

There IS a democracy trying to establish itself into our government, it is trying to make us all believe the two are the same when they are actually near opposites!

website for info: www.1215.org...

Click here for more information.

reply to post by kozmo

You are flat out WRONG! That is NOT Capitalism. And until you people start to understand that, then you are all products of indoctrination, and this conversation is moot. Almost NONE of you even know what Capitalism is. You have accepted the liberal/socialist/communist propagandized definition of Capitalism which doesn't even equate to what capitalism is.

Now I understand how Capernicus and Galileo felt.

Well, please tell me why I am wrong! I just gave my opinion on it and you claim I am "Flat out wrong!", my opinion was just that, an opinion, now if you are going to say I am wrong, why exactly am I wrong? Or are you just giving your opinion? I don't object to a persons opinion, plainly because sometimes I have learned that someone elses opinion made more sense than my own! However, to just flat out tell me I am wrong and leave it at that, really doesn't do anything to further your credibility!

I'm waiting..........

Originally posted by Jean Paul Zodeaux
reply to post by Germanicus

 

I am not a liar. I said that the only ones defending corporatism are capitalists like yourself. By defending capitalism,you defend corporatism in my opinion.

You are a liar and declaring your lies opinion does not diminish the lie. I am a capitalist and I do not defend corporatism. The opinions of a liar should not be trusted.

I think you are hysterical and pedantic. That must be what is putting your judgement off. Capitalism is not the way to go. Socialism is. I see no real difference between corporatism and your free maket capitalism. Free Marke tcapitalism will always lead to corporatism in my opinion. It has happened. It will happen again.

reply to post by Germanicus

I see no real difference between corporatism and your free maket capitalism.

A free market requires no regulation. Corporations cannot exist without regulation. It is that simple, and my pedantry is due to your insistence on proudly and smugly declaring your ignorance as erudite. You don't see the difference because you want to remain ignorant, and because you want to believe in a failed paradigm so you will reject any facts that get in the way of your belief system, to the point of lying.

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


JPZ, I think its proven pretty futile to argue with the likes of Germanicus and others...they are and always will be convinced that there is some sort of socialist utopia waiting out there for them. Its quite literally like arguing with a brick wall. The brick wall will never move, no matter how loud you yell at it. The wall is only capable of seeing in one dimension, from one perspective. There's no convincing someone with such a closed mindset.

There will always be people who just won't listen. I prefer talking to those who will.

reply to post by CaptainIraq


Brick walls don't keep posting tripe over and over again. It would be one thing if the anti-capitalism socialist Utopians were a fringe set, but this is not the case and there are legions of these ignoramuses. I don't expect to get through to the O.P., what I do hope for is that there are few reading this whom I do get through.

Why do I think most of these people who defend socialism are naive youth.

Crony Capitalism = Socialism.

reply to post by Germanicus


A Socialist government would never consider doing something like this because independence is anti-socialism. In order for Socialism to "work" (and I use the word work very loosely because it never actually does work) the citizens, or subjects, under the Socialist regime must be completely dependent on the government, and have no other option. The other variable is that Socialist Elitists are not socialists... they are facists, or corporatists, that benefit from capitalist practices and then make it virtually impossible for the regular Joe (you and I) to do the same which is how Socialism is implemented. Remember, Socialism is never for the Socialist... it's for everyone else, and if your plan for solar power independence were to become reality, then try to imagine how much profit the global elites would be losing due to the fact that a large section of energy dependence is now free. When elitists lose money, they also lose power control. The best way for your plan to work is for the government to become VERY small and non-intrusive in the lives of the citizenry, and then let the supply and demand of the market dictate how much your idea would cost, and more importantly, give people the individual choice on whether or not they want to participate.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

A Socialist government would never consider doing something like this because independence is anti-socialism. In order for Socialism to "work" (and I use the word work very loosely because it never actually does work) the citizens, or subjects, under the Socialist regime must be completely dependent on the government, and have no other option. The other variable is that Socialist Elitists are not socialists... they are facists, or corporatists, that benefit from capitalist practices and then make it virtually impossible for the regular Joe (you and I) to do the same which is how Socialism is implemented. Remember, Socialism is never for the Socialist... it's for everyone else, and if your plan for solar power independence were to become reality, then try to imagine how much profit the global elites would be losing due to the fact that a large section of energy dependence is now free. When elitists lose money, they also lose power control. The best way for your plan to work is for the government to become VERY small and non-intrusive in the lives of the citizenry, and then let the supply and demand of the market dictate how much your idea would cost, and more importantly, give people the individual choice on whether or not they want to participate.

How odd! Kinda sounds like what our founding fathers had in mind!

Originally posted by seeker1963
reply to post by kozmo

 

You are flat out WRONG! That is NOT Capitalism. And until you people start to understand that, then you are all products of indoctrination, and this conversation is moot. Almost NONE of you even know what Capitalism is. You have accepted the liberal/socialist/communist propagandized definition of Capitalism which doesn't even equate to what capitalism is.

Now I understand how Capernicus and Galileo felt.

Well, please tell me why I am wrong! I just gave my opinion on it and you claim I am "Flat out wrong!", my opinion was just that, an opinion, now if you are going to say I am wrong, why exactly am I wrong? Or are you just giving your opinion? I don't object to a persons opinion, plainly because sometimes I have learned that someone elses opinion made more sense than my own! However, to just flat out tell me I am wrong and leave it at that, really doesn't do anything to further your credibility!

I'm waiting..........

edit on 7-6-2012 by seeker1963 because: I used and instead of an

Simply stated, you are wrong in the application of the term "Capitalism" devoid of qualifiers. Your definition may touch upon aspects of state capitalism or mercantilism, but nothing to address traditional free-market or lassaiz fair capitalism - which are the traditional aspects of capitalism.

To use such blanket coverage of the term, in fact, disproves your own theory as you continue to advocate for more aggresive state capitalism - which many economists readily admit is a simply synonym for socialism light.

Free market capitalism leaves the creation of wealth in the hands of private individuals and rightfully respects our founding principles of private property. The market is driven entirely by supply and demand economics. There is no room for corporations in free-market capitalism as corporations, by their very definition, are granted their right to engage in commerce by the state and remain subjugated to state laws, policy and regulation - including pricing!

If one was to take the time to understand the roots of capitalism, one would quickly see the evolution of how true capitalism has been bastardized by the state and how social advocates have hijacked various aspects of capitalism to support their claim that it is bad. In fact, according to Wiki Mercantilsim is synonomous with protectionism. Corporate Capitalism is akin to social capitalism or state monopoloy capitalism. Clearly anyone educated in captialistic priciples can see the fallacious application of capitalism to either the state or corporations. It is an oxymoron!

As I've stated previously. The moment the state becomes involved, it is no longer capitalism. Some may want to fantasize that it is a "New" form of capitalism, but it is not. It is a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Helpful? Am i more credible now?

Originally posted by UltimateSkeptic1
All your blah, blah, blah can be simplified into one basic concept.

Do you want freedom, or do you want bureaucrats forcing you, by gunpoint, to do what they think is "best for the greater good?"

It's not about capitalism vs. socialism. It's about freedom vs. tyranny.

And yes, people with more money have an advantage because they can choose what to do with their money. That's not an inequity.

An inequity would be taking money from somebody who has contributed more and giving it to somebody who has contributed less. That's not fairness. That's unfairness.

This is not about freedom vs tyranny...imo.

Freedom is a perception of the mind and only of the mind where tyranny is physical and powerful and manipulative and evil and controlling.

tyrants look to steal your hearts...and minds thereby giving the illusion of taking your freedom...A misguided predatory capitalist wants your money, and your future money and he wants you to pay interest on it too...they seem to me to be different sides to the same old coin. WE need to remember that we need only mother earth in here natural state to live peaceful and truly free...

its all part of a power structure...a matrix(man I hate that) of manipulations.so complex and ingrained into our minds and hearts that we simply have forgotten how to live in harmony with our kind and planet as a hole...

but in actuality...its simply like the OP stated Capitalism Vs Socialism...he did not discuss the method of implementation...personally I feel he went out of his way to avoid this reaction in hopes you might here a different side to socialism...

IMO
The problem with socialism and the falsely called capitalism that exists today are the same. They both rely on a group of people to regulate an industry.

The problem with today's capitalism is that its not capitalism. You have a lobbying industry run by the corporations and the special interest groups who in essence control and influence our gov't laws and regulations.

So what we have today is a loop hole in the system that allows for those large special interest groups to run monopolies by utilizing lobbyist.

I'm a capitalist but HATE HATE corporations!! Not because of there unrealistic and unsustainable goal of infinitely exceeding last years profit in order to survive, but rather because they are unfairly manipulating the market with their lobbying influence.

Before you attack capitalism give it a try by removing the close relationships in Washington between politicians and the lobbying industry.

Originally posted by Germanicus
reply to post by kozmo

 

As far as an oxymoron... Capitalism is the opposite of cronyism. Just because I make up a word blackwhite doesn't make it a "real" word. State Capitalism is alo a farse as state-based economics IS SOCIALISM or perhaps fascism, depending on how it is deployed and managed. Whereas Capitalism is a CONSUMER-based economic model based simply on supply and demand.

You can try to sell capitalism as every man for themselves but it isnt. ( not that every man for themselves sounds great anyway ) With capitalism profit is the bottom line. Captalism has nothing against 'Trusts'. Nothing against 'incorporation'. Like I said capitalism is a slippery slope. So no, capialism is not the exact opposite of cronyism and the whole solyndra thing is the perfect example od 'Crony Capitalism.

Capitalism is not some honest innocent 'supply and demand' service and you know it.

State Capitalism is a term not because it is made up but because it describes a specific form of capitalism. China is a perfect example of State Capitalism.

So now you are educated. Crony Capitalism,think solyndra

State Capitalism,think China

I find it interesting where he mentions fascism as if it is an economic model like capitalism. Fascism is a Political model not an economic one. Facism USES capitalism and socialism both, but each will work differently in order for the facist at the top to make their booty. There are socialist and capitalist fascist groups. The main drive for fascism is the desire to stay at the top and keep the fat trimmed off at the bottom. Anyone notice that the people who tax the systems the most are starting to kick the bucket sooner?

Without any structure of capitalism we will end up like Europe.Total collpase and we might be headed there anyways.I wonder if people understand how serious the debt crisis realy is.It is unreal what is going on when you think about it.

reply to post by Germanicus


Compassionate and Brilliant 50 Cent on Ending World Hunger with "Conscious Capitalism"

We do not live in a capitalist system.

Bailing out a bank or corporation with tax-payer money is not capitalism.

Everyone discussing capitalism is presumably discussing another nation that I am not aware of, because we do not have a capitalist system.

What we do have is under debate, but it seems that by increasing the police state and crushing any form of political protest, our governments are actively working toward fascism.