Deny your ignorance about Germany

Hi ATS!

It's my experience that whenever tensions in Europe (EU or €uroZone) are rising, usually anti-german sentiment isn't far away.
There is not a single thread about Germany / the €uro on ATS whithout someone playing the nazi-card / making some sort of anti-german comment.

I've posted in many of these threads, explaining how and why Germany is still successful in the current economic climate and what we do differently.
I always try to explain the german point of view on the €Z, but often my remarks are ignored.

Recently I found a few short and good videos on the topic, two of them by PBS and the other both by some british guy who used to live in Germany for a while.
All of them are from foreigners and in english, so I hope partisanship can be ruled out here.


DISCLAIMER:
Although I feel very patriotic about our fatherland, I'm well aware that we are far from guiltless.
I also know that there is more to Germany's success than these videos can contain, but it's a start.
Feel free to discuss / add to the content of the posted vids.

Personally I strongly oppose the €Z and the concept of centralism in Europe per se.
I disagree with our Chancellor Merkels foreign policies regarding our entaglement in the €Z.
My intention with this thread is not to boast or to know better, I'm simply trying to deny ignorance about Germany.
Last but not least: this is about the federal rebulic of Germany TODAY, NOT about Germany under NS-rule!


PBS News Hour - How Germany Became Europe's Richest Country:



PBS News Hour - In Bailing Out Greece, Germans Eye 'Functional, Surviving Euro':




Why is the German economy so sucessful?



Part 2:

The thing is Germany needs the Euro to survive, because the majority of people who you export to are in Europe. Most of Germany's income comes from exports.

I certainly don't have any anti German sentiment and dislike the fact certain people are comparing Germany to it's Nazi past, a very unfair comparison. But, I also have a problem with the way the German press have been stereotyping Greeks.

reply to post by ColCurious


Marshall Plan ring any bell?

reply to post by ColCurious


Why is Germany so successful? Two biggest reasons mentioned in your video that trumps everything:

1. Small firms owned and passed down through families instead of huge corporations create highly advanced specialized niches in the market.

2. Hire 10th graders to begin studying how to work in these factories, 3 years with pay, then pay for their college education and guarantee a job afterwards.

That's exactly how the USA used to be.. it's what made us great, and it's what makes Germany great.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
[...] But, I also have a problem with the way the German press have been stereotyping Greeks.

100% agreed.
The reports in our tabloid press about the "lazy greek" were a disgrace for our journalism.


reply to post by Hellas

Originally posted by Hellas
Marshall Plan ring any bell?

Sure. Relevance regarding the topic at hand?

reply to post by Rockpuck

Exactly and these structural conditions are embedded deep within our culture.
Our various educational programs and institutions encourage a high degree of working ethics.
Strong personal responsibility and demands on pupils and students provide high qualifications as a reward.
I heard the saying "hard but fair" alot in my own apprenticeship back then.

I like Germany's pragmatic approach and work ethic.

Work hard and you can't fail mentality.
I like the lack of greed culture as well.

I have stayed in south Germany several times with one stay being 14 weeks (I didn't want to come back).

I used to be like that here in the UK.
Not any more, it's all about me, me and more me and where's my state hand out money for ME.

reply to post by ColCurious


Great thread thanks ColCurious. Personally, i love Germany. I have been a few times, first as a snotty nosed schoolboy, full of all the patriotic, flag waving, typically (old) British war time view of Germany - and was very pleasantly surprised to find out what a truly wonderful it actually is, how friendly the people are (pardon the generalisation). Basically, it is the one country i have visited that i have been most impressed with (sorry USA). This is actually in all aspects as well.

I hate the fact that Germany gets vilified like it does - generations ago people. Anything that dispels the myths and anti German rhetoric / propaganda will always get my support.

I also hate the fact that Germany gets so vilified with respect to the current financial crisis - like they (as a nation) should feel guilty for working bloody hard, paying taxes properly and generally doing things in the right way.

Germany though will start to suffer (i believe), the longer the Euro crisis drags on. Downgrading German banks is a potential warning for what to expect when Germany is expected to, basically, pay for Southern Europe's mistakes.

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by Hellas

 

Originally posted by Hellas
Marshall Plan ring any bell?

Sure. Relevance regarding the topic at hand?

That was regarding how Germany got where they are today.

reply to post by Hellas


Marshall Plan was necessary though. The conditions imposed at Versailles had to be avoided if the same wasn't to happen again in Europe (another war). Therefore, saying Germany is successful because of the Marshall Plan is only a little bit of the story rather than an explanation. Yes, the Marshall Plan was hugely instrumental in the growth of Modern Germany. However, the Versailles Treaty was instrumental in the collapse of old Germany - it balances out.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by Hellas

 

Marshall Plan was necessary though. The conditions imposed at Versailles had to be avoided if the same wasn't to happen again in Europe (another war). Therefore, saying Germany is successful because of the Marshall Plan is only a little bit of the story rather than an explanation. Yes, the Marshall Plan was hugely instrumental in the growth of Modern Germany. However, the Versailles Treaty was instrumental in the collapse of old Germany - it balances out.

My point is that Greece should have a Marshall Plan, too.

I do not want my comments to sound like anti Jewish because they are not.
I feel as a whole Jewish people work harder than average Americans.
My comments are NOT ABOUT JEWISH.

Here’s my thoughts:
There were other people’s eliminated during WW2. People who had physical and mental deficiencies along with habitual criminals. People who contributed little to nothing to society, generation after generation.

I know it’s a touchy and incendiary subject. But I feel we have a significant percentage of that same type of people here in the US. I believe these type consume more than they produce. It’s like society has to drag them along.

Could a major part of Germanys success be because at the end of WW2 they had almost none of these types of people? And since then the total numbers have not risen to a significant percentage of the population as they have here in the US? As a result the entire country pulls together and the economy has very few weak spots.

reply to post by samkent


In short, no. There was no welfare state prior to World War 2 so the point is redundant. If World War 2 had started in the Sixties or Seventies, there may be something worth looking at there.

Definitely abstract thinking though. (positive thing).

We also have to take into account, the stationing of all those troops since the end of the war. Which has helped their economy. Yes like others have said, the germans are a hard working people. Not only hard workers but a very skilled work force. Who make good products that are sought the world over. My nephew lives in Berlin and works in the auto industry (BMW) He grew up in London and has been working in Berlin for the for the last 20 years. He said he would never move back to the UK and that life in Germany is a lot better.

reply to post by ColCurious

It's my experience that whenever tensions in Europe (EU or €uroZone) are rising, usually anti-german sentiment isn't far away.
There is not a single thread about Germany / the €uro on ATS whithout someone playing the nazi-card / making some sort of anti-german comment.

In a forum where open, frank discussion is the name of the game you are bound to find every point of view expressed (—though I suggest the so-called 'Nazi card' wouldn't often be played in the GM forum).

As to your perception of prevailing anti-German sentiment I get the impression you didn't see this post from just 2 days ago: 'Is Germany trying to fleece a dying system?'

(Hopefully I've denied my ignorance. But I still wouldn't presume to say opposing points of view are not equally worthy of consideration.)

reply to post by woodwardjnr

Actually, I think we're exporting only ~40% to our direct european neighbours.
The rest goes overseas around the world. But it's a huge chunk nonetheless and of course we need Europe, just not necessarily the €uro.

reply to post by Flavian

Thanks alot and right back at the UK
I also see the EU-offshoots of this GFC finally reaching Germany and I'd actually welcome a little wake-up call for Germany. It's the only catalyst I see to put a halt to the madness this whole centralistic €uroZone has become.

reply to post by Hellas

Originally posted by Hellas
My point is that Greece should have a Marshall Plan, too.

How about the Greek people reclaim their souvereignty first by leaving the €uroZone?
Vote for a serious Government and kick out the traitors that sold your souvereignty to the Troika and gave the baillouts to the banks, while ill-considered austerity measures killed your economy.
Then return to the drachma and rebuild your rotten system without the oligarchs that ripped you off.
I'd gladly support a Marshall Plan for Greece under those circumstances.

reply to post by samkent

No that's absurd. The Nazis also executed a lot of Germans as political opponents. Conservatives, Social democrats, Unionists, all kinds of proficient people. Not so widely known as the holocaust against the Jews.

reply to post by illuminnaughty

This is very true.
Whole towns around foreign bases flourished with the money of the stationed allied soldiers.
But we're allies now. Time to withdraw the troops from German national territory IMO, aside from permanent strategically important bases of our NATO partners of course.
I don't think we still need protection and we certainly don't need foreign subsidies.

reply to post by pause4thought

Thanks, I didn't read that post yet. Just starred it
I'm all for seeing every point of view expressed. This is one

reply to post by ColCurious


The thing just is, the German system is built on more lasting values, than other economies. Simple as that. Also, German industry and trade, play together - not against each other. This respect for competition, creates new opportunities. All this founded on training, innovation and break-through thinking, hard working and spartan mentality - and there you have the ingredients for a major success.

Right now, the challenge for Germany is the Europe. More and more countries are reliant on their direct and indirect help. And it is fair to see the limits in that. Even the deepest pockets do have their ends somewhere. If rest of the Europe empties and disables German economy - it hardly can be to the benefit of anyone.

Keeping that in mind, many southern European economies have hosted too socialist, if not then totally communistic, ideals, of money growing in the olive trees, and created unsustainable illusions. But, at the same time, these same regions have been poor, right from the beginning, and their governments have had tough times in balancing between cost of welfare vs economic incentives. Producing welfare - originally a Swedish export - requires however substantial productivity and industrial activities, which these poor regions lack. And thus, for them it has been very easy to over-shoot the capabilities which their economies can carry along.

That said, it is very hard to see, how so diverse and contrasting landscape of economies, could ever sustain a single currency - and single framework of conditions for financial planning. To me, it has been from day 1 very clear, Euro as a currency, is more of a tool for tragedies than anything else. The Greece would have returned back to normal life by now already, if not then due to Euro.

So much prestige from politicians, and so little respect for the good of their people.

It's funny cause they still haven't paid us!

It's funny cause they started 2 world wars in which Greece fought for freedom twice and we are the black sheep!

It's funny cause the biggest scams of the modern greek politicians derive DIRECTLY from Germany...

It's funny cause it's true!

You would think the Nazi card would get old, I'm an American and my Dads Grandma was from Ulm. Many of us Americans are of German descent. While some of us may choose to knock Germans, you guys are hardworking, intelligent people, extremely efficent, meticulous, and have amazing ingenuity. Also, my pick for POTUS Ron Paul, is a German American. I have worked with German people before, they are far from being Nazi's, very pleasent people. I do wish for Germans, that this stereotype goes away for good.

reply to post by deckdel

Your post exactly corresponds with my assesment Deckdel.
The key to a successful social system is always and foremost balance of costs and gains, expenses and profits.
In the best case a social system is a supporting pillar for a healthy domestic economy - in the worst case it can also be a considerable burden, as we've seen with the unbalanced systems abroad.
Same goes for all governmental regulations.

reply to post by Alda1981

It's funny cause you didn't read my disclaimer.

It's funny cause after all the time passed since first aids for Greece were put into effect, there still hasn't been any improvement or restructuring whatsoever regarding your corrupt fiscal system - up until this very day.

It's funny cause you still point your finger at us, instead of at the traitors you empowered to sell your nation to the Troika and distribute the bailouts into the banksters (and their own) pockets, while the average greek had to suffer ill-considered austerity measures.

Actually it's not funny anymore. I'd suggest you quit the whining and put your own house in order first.

reply to post by kat2684

Yes, I knew Ron Paul has family in Hessen.
I love Hessen and I would have loved to see Ron Paul as a candidate for your presidency.
I don't agree with him on every topic, but it sure would have been very interesting to see how his concept plays out for the U.S.