The Life of Issa and the Gospels

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Although this thread is about the life and teachings of St Issa, Akragon has shown that the text being discussed here is from the travels of a young man, 13 or so, who left his home instead of taking a bride. These texts fit nicely with the teaching of Jesus. Coincidence?

edit on 8-6-2012 by windword because: spelling & grammer

I've concluded that Jesus left Jerusalem much earlier than that as a young boy who, being different (blond hair, blue eyes, flatter face like Romans) was unable to fit in with the other children (as an allegory think of the Chrismas song "Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer" ie: bullied, nose often bloodied), and who was handed over by Joseph and Mary to "Magi" from Persia to be trained, taught, and raised, and prepared for re-entry into Jewish society (his cousin John even knew precisely at what time he would return), and that he later, post crucifixion/resurrection-recuscitation, returned to his old haunts while ultaimtely travelling all the way to Kashmir where he dropped his body (entering the abode of light from which he addressed Saul) at about age 70.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Dear NewAgeMan,

It was probably me that misunderstood. You said something in your response that I think I can understand however:

Saul/Paul's authentic experience on the Road to Damascus, about 40 some odd years after the crucifixion proves that indeed Jesus was who and what he said he was. I find it interesting that Jesus' activity recommenced there and then at that time.

I have checked at least four or five sources and they all put Paul's Damascus experience at between 31 and 36 A.D. Could you point me to your source so I can figure out this discrepancy.

The other problem I have with the idea of roughly 70 A.D. for Paul's conversion is that the sources I've seen indicate he was arrested in either 60 or 62 A.D. and died in Roman captivity. I'm having real trouble with Damascus around 70 A.D. Please help me out here.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I've concluded that Jesus left Jerusalem much earlier than that as a young boy who, being different (blond hair, blue eyes, flatter face like Romans) was unable to fit in with the other children (as an allegory think of the Chrismas song "Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer" ie: bullied, nose often bloodied), and who was handed over by Joseph and Mary to "Magi" from Persia to be trained, taught, and raised, and prepared for re-entry into Jewish society (his cousin John even knew precisely at what time he would return), and that he later, post crucifixion/resurrection-recuscitation, returned to his old haunts while ultaimtely travelling all the way to Kashmir where he dropped his body (entering the abode of light from which he addressed Saul) at about age 70.

While I am all in favour of entering and drawing from the Imaginal one should take care not to slip to far into the realm of pure fantasy, unless one is wanting to write pure fiction. We can easily suppose that Jesus, and his parents went into hiding to avoid the cull of all children under two years old, and would have had to stay away for some time to avoid detection, we hear nothing of him until he is twelve, and then nothing again until that last year of his life. Given his looks, as you have described, and as he is described in contempory accounts, it is as likely that he went to Europe, where he would have most fitted in. His mother too is described as being fair, so perhaps she had roots there, and perhaps that would explain why Mary Magdalene chose to go to France. I am not against the idea of him having travelled East, joining one of the trade caravans (again we can wonder at where the dark skinned Sarah, who accompanied Mary to France after his death, crossed his and her path) along the Silk Road, but saying he was bullied and left one place because he was 'light' only to go somewhere where that 'lightness' would have been all the more accentuated, is, to say the least, a little silly.

reply to post by charles1952

Sorry, it's just guesswork and speculation of course, but I meant to add 33 (his approximate age at the cross) to the date of Saul/Paul's experience, so shave ten years off that 70 estimate and make it about 60-65.

reply to post by Biliverdin

Are you referring to the little annecdote about him being left behind by his parents, who on doubling back to look for him found him in the temple talking to the learned scribes or priests, because I was inder the impression that he was much younger, and, that that story may have been added in so as to connect the young boy genius with the temple in Jerusalem. After all, what parents, when making some sort of pilgramage like that would forget their kid and travel some distance before realizing that he wasn't even with them to begin with?

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I've concluded that Jesus left Jerusalem much earlier than that as a young boy who, being different (blond hair, blue eyes, flatter face like Romans) was unable to fit in with the other children

Interesting…

But I’m curious; what information, material sources etc… did you use, in order to reach those conclusions.


- JC

reply to post by NewAgeMan


You clearly have never had a child, it is amazing how easy it is to lose track of them, especially when that child has a precocious and inquiring mind.

reply to post by Joecroft

I'm not sure I could even pull it all together for you at this time, it was a little piece here, something there, excerpts from the Gospels, an old coin purported to show the face of Jesus, Catholic Church imagery, the Gnostic Gospels, statements by his cousin and forerunner John the Baptist (demonstrating that he was coming from somwhere else), extrapolating..

Will need to do some work to dig it up and offer some links and references. I'm sorry I don't have anything to offer you at this time to back it up.

Magi of course were from ancient Persia..

reply to post by Biliverdin

Cute!

Does the Gospel account of that episode say he was 12 at the time?

reply to post by Joecroft


Here, this is a useful site...

www.thenazareneway.com...

reply to post by NewAgeMan

[41] Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. [42] When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. [43] After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. [44] Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. [45] When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. [46] After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. [47] Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. [48] When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."

www.jesuswalk.com...

Good enough for ya

reply to post by Biliverdin

Thanks, that's it. So they embarked upon their return journey thinking he was with them (strange), and didn't notice for a day.. you don't find that unusual in the least?

Is there any other mention in the Gospels of him as a boy or a prepubescent child? Nada. That's it, the only reference. I think it was inserted that annecdote, so as to give the impression that he was in the neighborhood and under the care of Mary and Joseph throughout his upbringing.

At the very least John the Baptist's statements appear to indicate that he'd been away somewhere and was returning at an anticipated time known to John in advance, and of course correspondances across the trade routes in those days would have been possible..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Times have changed, only 100 years ago a 12 year old would be considered an independent adult and probably be self supporting, or at least earning their own wage, and in older cultures, a boy was sent off at 7 to learn his trade. So yes, I would find it unusual, but then, I don't think they would. Although, a lot depended, then and 100 years ago on class, so it perhaps indicates that the family were not so noble as some would like to believe, the children of the rich and powerful are and were, sometimes much more cossetted.

But, the gaps, in our understanding of his development and early years, up until his ministry are beyond scant. However, doesn't that in many ways speak much of the man, he didn't like to talk about himself, and I would guess that that story, told by Luke, came from his mother, not from him. It's the kind of thing that a mother would remember and tell anecdotally.

reply to post by Biliverdin

Don't you find it interesting however that he came onto the scene at about the age of 29/30 a fully self-realized and enlightened spiritual master to join his cousin John at the Jordan River who talked as if he was coming from elsewhere..?

There are deep parallels there as well with Elijah and Elisha, and an previously unfulfilled promise regarding a double dose of spirit, that also took place at the same locale (Jordan), which, if we're to draw the connection between Elijah and John (as his reincarnation) would make of John the Baptist Jesus' initiator and indeed that's precisely what took place at his baptism, with the old promise fulfilled..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I don't know, beyond my current understanding to be perfectly honest. However, something that I was recently reading, did suggest that he and John didn't see eye to eye, particularly in terms of the ascetism. I need to understand far more about that dimension of things before I can take this conversation any further I think...but, what I would posit is, if you read carefully, and take into consideration the lost Gospels, then I personally feel that there is some indication that he wasn't entirely realised as the accepted history would have us believe, and that somewhere along the way there is a change. I really wouldn't like to elaborate any further on that, but it is something that I have noticed, a slight, but perceptible change in his teaching. It could of course be accounted for by his knowledge of his impending death, but I wonder if there is something else, underlying, there...but again, I am only at this time myself learning, so I could be wrong. See what you think though. I do though believe that if you look at what Jesus says about John, at his funeral I think, there is a certain distaste for John's path that would suggest divergence.

reply to post by Biliverdin

I disagree. The Gospels indicate that Jesus held John in the very highest regard ie: "there are none born of a woman greater than John", the only differentiation here being that Jesus, although of course also born of a woman considered himself re-born from above, not of the flesh, but of the spirit.

Reborn
go to 2:24 in the vid - segment runs to 5:35

Note catefully, the subtle nuances (intentionally directed) in this exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus surrounding the issue of rebirth.

I think that people like da Vinci and Botticelli knew certain secrets that they wanted to preserve and convey in plain site, yet without getting themselves into too much trouble with the Roman Church, which offer us clues that are relevant to this thread, so I'm going to add it here for consideration. However, I'm a little hesitant to just go ahead and join the dots and make the connections for people, because some of the implications are rather blasphemous by most Christian standards, and may be just too painful to say out loud.

What does this represent?

Adoration of the Magi
by Sandro Botticelli, 1475-76

And I'm not referring here to The Medici family and friends, the connoisseurs of Renaissance art at the time.

www.paradoxplace.com...


And who is the bearded man, up top, beneath the ray of light breaking into the scene through the roof?

Let me tell you who it represents, for clue #3, that's Nicodemus, who was a Pharisee and a member of the Sanhedrin, yet nevertheless a close friend and confident of Jesus, who had friends in high places, including wealthy friends such a Joseph of Arimathea (clue #4). The adoration of the Magi, is his, towards them all, including the "baby Jesus" depicted there, but wait, wasn't it much later that the 12 were gathered..? (clue #5).

It should also be noted that Botticelli painted the painting with the intention of HIDING it, from anyone's sight, for a long time (on fear of severe persecution by the Church if it was discovered and viewed, and by "severe" persecution, we all know what that means). Why would such a gifted artist risk his very LIFE to paint a painting that no one would be able to SEE, rolled up and placed in hiding, for a period of well over at least 100 years, if I'm not mistaken, before it was discovered, and ah "brought to light". Why?

Intrigued yet? And is there more to the story of the Magi than Three Kings on Camels, and if so who ARE they really and where did THEY come from, and why, and what precisely is represented by the star over Bethlehem, if the story of "The Three Wise Men" is taken allegorically, and not quite literally..?

More to follow. The mystery deepens..

stay tuned..


Best Regards,

NAM

The John Gesture or John Sign - what does it mean?

John the Baptist,
by Leonardo da Vinci,
1513/16
www.artbible.info...

Wikipedia

St. John the Baptist is an oil painting on walnut wood by Leonardo da Vinci. Completed from 1513 to 1516, when the High Renaissance was metamorphosing into Mannerism, it is believed to be his last painting. The original size of the work was 69x57 cm. It is now exhibited at the Musée du Louvre in Paris, France.

The piece depicts St. John the Baptist in isolation. St. John is dressed in pelts, has long curly hair, and is smiling in an enigmatic manner which is reminiscent of Leonardo's famous Mona Lisa. He holds a reed cross in his left hand while his right hand points up toward heaven (like St Anne in Leonardo's cartoon The Virgin and Child with St Anne and St John the Baptist). It is believed that the cross and wool skins were added at a later date by another painter.

The pointing gesture of St. John toward the heavens suggests the importance of salvation through baptism that John the Baptist represents. The work is often quoted by later painters, especially those in the late Renaissance and Mannerist schools. The inclusion of a gesture similar to John's would increase the importance of a work with a religious conceit.

The effeminate, androgynous portrayal of St. John where he is usually seen as a gaunt and muscular figure is unusual.

A suggested reason for the darkened background is in reference to the description of St.John in the Bible as 'a light that shineth in the darkness'.

en.wikipedia.org...(Leonardo)

The John Gesture

In 1997, Lynn Picknett & Clive Prince introduced the so-called “John gesture”: a specific pose painted by Leonardo da Vinci. They were at pains to clearly identify the symbolism of the gesture, but with a little help of Hermetic magic… ?

What is the “John gesture”? Picknett & Prince identified that da Vinci in his paintings often depicted certain people as raising their right index finger skywards. This is very pronounced in da Vinci’s painting of John the Baptist, but even in the Last Supper, one figure makes the John gesture.

Other painters seem to have noticed this was one of da Vinci’s trademarks. Raphael depicted Leonardo as Plato in his The School of Athens, where Leonardo/Plato is depicted with the “John gesture”. That this “John gesture” is also present in many of the paintings in the Turin Cathedral, could be a mere coincidence, but we note that the “John gesture” is extremely rare to be found in iconography. So: coincidence? Or more evidence for Picknett & Prince’s theory?

What does the John gesture mean? In short, Picknett & Prince do not know, but do construct a possible scenario. John the Baptist is notorious for his right index finger, with which he identified Jesus as the “Son of God”. For Picknett & Prince, the “John gesture” should be read as a concealed reference to John the Baptist, in which the sign says “remember John the Baptist”.

Let us detach for now the “John gesture” from all of its built-up theorizing. What we are left with, is a curiosity in the work of da Vinci, whereby certain paintings show a person who is raising a right index finger. What could it mean? To repeat, the “John gesture” is not solely linked with John the Baptist; a number of people in his paintings show “the finger”, even though for the most parts they are linked with the Baptist. The key question is: what does the finger mean?

www.philipcoppens.com...

They don't have a clue. But I know what it means and signifies, and I am convinced that people like da Vinci and Botticelli knew things that the average Joe did not, but that they nevertheless wanted communicated, yet sereptitiously and by veiled inference, so as not to get them into any trouble with the Church.

And since no one's figured it out and stated it outright, except perhaps in the Vatican archives or something, we have the priviledge of allowing such paintings as John the Baptist and Adoration of the Magi, to speak to us now, today, even in this very thread right here at ATS.

Still more clues to follow, stay tuned..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Again, still learning, but 'begotten' I think can be interpreted on a number of levels. It's late now, but let me see tomorrow if I can dig out the particular passage that I am referring to. And of course, I could be wrong, and I could be reading things into it that are not there. I do not necessarily think that he disliked John, or even didn't admire him, but in terms of teaching and message, particularly in terms of ascetism, I think there may have been a schism if you like.

And...while we're at it, I do wonder at the Thomas thing, isn't that as likely a source for the pairing that you refer to? Why did Jesus refer to him as his twin? Isn't that a possibility in terms of a spiritual pairing? I don't know, but I'd be interested in what you think.

For now though, good night

reply to post by Biliverdin

The main point is that John, Jesus' 1st cousin, knew well in advance, what Jesus had spent his whole life preparing himself for, and may have been born to do, and yet his knowing smile in da Vinci's painting shows that he knows something that is greater than this terrible foreknowledge as to Jesus' destiny ie: the cross.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I'm not sure I could even pull it all together for you at this time, it was a little piece here, something there, excerpts from the Gospels, an old coin purported to show the face of Jesus, Catholic Church imagery, the Gnostic Gospels, statements by his cousin and forerunner John the Baptist (demonstrating that he was coming from somwhere else), extrapolating..

I’ve read, and I’m still in the process of reading, many of the Gnostic texts. I’ve read a few of them which describe Jesus in his childhood etc, but I don’t remember reading anything, so far anyway, about the physical characteristics of Jesus, which was why I was curious…

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
Will need to do some work to dig it up and offer some links and references. I'm sorry I don't have anything to offer you at this time to back it up.

Seems like this is something you have pieced together, from various sources; so I look forward to seeing some links and references….


Thanks…


- JC