Land Of The Free No Longer

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reply to post by nixie_nox


The corporations regulate ur life for their benefit and not yours. I believe people are free, its just we dont really understand what freedom means.

People, especially in North America love the idea that somebody somewhere will do things for them, grow food, build a home, make clothing etc. People KNOW what they put in our food and yet they continue to buy their products.

We are free, we just too scared to have to actually get up and take control of our own lifes.

Title should be changed to "Land of the privileged No Longer". We've never had never had freedom in this country, only the illusion of freedom. We've never even had rights in this country only the illusion that we have rights. They are not rights if someone can take them away, they are privileges.

I’ve really stopped posting in threads like this, because I know I am going to get slammed, since my opinion is so different than most people’s. Yet, I can’t stay silent.

What I see in this thread is a bunch of people who give the appearance of being genuinely unhappy. I see a lot of people who feel superior to those of us who ARE happy. And unfortunately the attitude seems to be “if you’re happy you must be an idiot.”

Yes, I’m a happy American, even though I’m not pleased with the direction our government has gone…over the past 100 years. It hasn’t just happened in the last year or two…this is a slippery slope we have gone down, step by step, decade by decade.

So are we free or are we not? As a libertarian philosophy-wise, I definitely think we’ve moved in the wrong direction. But I don’t think it’s as bad as some of you do.

I think no one in the history of the world has ever been free enough to satisfy many of the critics in this thread, ever since the introduction of communities. Name a time or a place in the world where everyone has been free to do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted to. You can’t.

I guarantee that there are some laws that restrict our freedoms that many of you decrying our lack of freedom actually support. You can’t tell me you want total anarchy. For example, someone early on mentioned that they were upset that they couldn’t build on a porch without a permit. Well, then, do you want your neighbor to be free to build a home-made nuclear reactor next to your house? Certainly not. Where do we draw the line? Somewhere between homemade nuclear reactors and front porches, obviously. While we all agree there SHOULD be a line, we can’t agree on where it should be.

I still think we ARE free to enjoy our lives, which is what I think superballs is TRYING to say. Maybe he isn’t getting his point across very well, but listen: isn’t a person who FEELS free truly free?

I also think we ARE free to create change. The problem is that we can’t all agree on what we want to change things INTO. For example, if we ALL AGREED that fluoride in our water was bad, I guarantee ALL OF US working together could stop the practice of putting fluoride into water. BUT, we DON’T all agree that fluoride in the water is bad.

I really think the problem is the fact that we all have such different ideas of how to solve the problems facing us….we even have different ideas of WHAT the problems facing us EVEN ARE. Something I see as a problem may be perfectly acceptable to the majority of people.

But here’s the thing: WHY do we have to be so unhappy all of the time? Why do we have to make fun of people like superballs and demean his opinion? He’s happy with his life and feels free. Does it make you feel better to make fun of him?

One of my favorite movies is “Life is Beautiful”. It’s about a guy who ended up in a concentration camp in WWII with his son. He was about as far from free as one could get. But you know what—because of his ATTITUDE, he was more free within that concentration camp than many of you seem to be right now.

I refuse to be a “slave”. You can tell me I’m a slave, and that I’m an idiot because I don’t realize I’m a slave. But I tell you—the problem is that YOU believe that you ARE a slave.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Excellent!!

I don't agree with some of your points, but definitely most and "test-tube corporate robot" killed me! Love it!

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl



Excellent post from your point of view! Much better stated than "sloppyballs" put it. I would not consider myself unhappy, but I can see how ignorance is bliss. I do wish I could retreat back to that state of mind...

I you feel free, go with it!

reply to post by ChaoticOrder



Please do not blame the American people for what our government does. They have turned on the world and are now turning on us , its own people.

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl

I think no one in the history of the world has ever been free enough to satisfy many of the critics in this thread, ever since the introduction of communities. Name a time or a place in the world where everyone has been free to do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted to. You can’t. 
I guarantee that there are some laws that restrict our freedoms that many of you decrying our lack of freedom actually support. You can’t tell me you want total anarchy

I think your definition of freedom is a bit skewed here. Those of us who complain about the loss of freedoms here do not define freedom as being able to do anything you want to the point of chaos (which you incorrectly label as anarchy) or harming others or violating their rights in any way.

For example, someone early on mentioned that they were upset that they couldn’t build on a porch without a permit. Well, then, do you want your neighbor to be free to build a home-made nuclear reactor next to your house? Certainly not. Where do we draw the line?

It is nonsense like this that makes me cringe especially from one who claims to have a libertarian philosophy. The basis of all law is "no harm no crime". Obviously a nuclear reactor would be a severe danger to their neighbors so they do not have the right to build one, if you really can't see the difference in that and building a porch and why one does not need permission from anyone to build a porch then you do not have the first clue about freedom.

isn’t a person who FEELS free truly free? 

No a person who doesn't know he is a slave can feel he is free and still be a slave. One who has to have permission do nearly everything he does is still a slave even if he is happy with it.

I also think we ARE free to create change. The problem is that we can’t all agree on what we want to change things INTO. For example, if we ALL AGREED that fluoride in our water was bad, I guarantee ALL OF US working together could stop the practice of putting fluoride into water. BUT, we DON’T all agree that fluoride in the water is bad. 

But fluoride is bad whether everyone agrees it is or not that is a fact. The point is that no one or group has a right to decide for others that they should be ingesting it and putting it in common water supplies where they have little or no choice but to drink it. According to your philosophy those who believe or feel it is ok must be ok.

I really think the problem is the fact that we all have such different ideas of how to solve the problems facing us….we even have different ideas of WHAT the problems facing us EVEN ARE. Something I see as a problem may be perfectly acceptable to the majority of people. 

That's part of the problem however the real problem is that one group of people believes they have the right to force their views on others by a majority vote hence we have fluoride in our drinking water because idiots who feel free thinks its ok and good for us and think they are perfectly justified in forcing it on everyone.

But here’s the thing: WHY do we have to be so unhappy all of the time? Why do we have to make fun of people like superballs and demean his opinion? He’s happy with his life and feels free. Does it make you feel better to make fun of him? 

Why do you assume anyone who gets pissed at the ignorance of people who believe they have a right to bring government force to bear in forcing their views on the rest of us is unhappy all the time? I am a pretty happy guy but when you pick my pockets all the time and force me to get permission from government to do harmless acts I am going to get angry at you and complain about it.

The fact you feel free makes you complacent and unmotivated to change things. No one wants chaos as you wrongly assume. They just want to be left the hell alone and be able to keep the fruits of their labors instead of being extorted at gun point if they do not comply with the idiots who "feel free" while they are picking the pockets of their neighbors through their ignorance apathy greed and corruption.

continued...

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl

One of my favorite movies is “Life is Beautiful”. It’s about a guy who ended up in a concentration camp in WWII with his son. He was about as far from free as one could get. But you know what—because of his ATTITUDE, he was more free within that concentration camp than many of you seem to be right now. 

Ah no sorry he was not more free then any of us he was in a brutal concentration camp at the mercy of evil tyrants. The fact that he made the best of a horrible situation by his attitude did not make him free it made him able to cope with an untenable situation he was powerless to change. We have the power to change our situation and that is what makes many of us angry at the sheep who sit there and say if you feel free you are free and continue to accept their slavery instead of changing it. Apparently you have never had a serious run in with government enforcers. I am sick and tired of having my pockets picked because people like you say things are not that bad. So I guess we should wait till we are at the point of the man in the concentration camp before we complain? NO! We complain now BECAUSE WE NEVER WANT TO GET TO THAT POINT!

I refuse to be a “slave”. You can tell me I’m a slave, and that I’m an idiot because I don’t realize I’m a slave. But I tell you—the problem is that YOU believe that you ARE a slave.

You are a slave and the reason you are still a slave is because you refuse to acknowledge that fact and break free while you still can!

reply to post by hawkiye


This is what I'm talking about--this is why I am frustrated. You picked apart absolutely everything I said, even down to the meaning of anarchy, which according to Miriam Webster means:

a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

www.merriam-webster.com...

Sounds like

being able to do anything you want to the point of chaos

is an appropriate interpretation of anarchy to me, especially considering definition b. If you read and interpret what I said, I said that I know the people I am talking about (the ones complaining so vehemently about America) *DON'T* want anarchy. The problem is defining how much governmental oversight is acceptable. It's a sliding scale, and NO TWO OF US are going to agree point by point on what is necessary and what is nanny-state.

I am not going to respond to everything you said point by point. While I CAN show you I am correct in my definition of anarchy, I will NEVER be able to convince you that my way of looking at the world is acceptable. That's fine with me.

Clearly, you can't know me from a few paragraphs here on ATS. Please assume I am smart enough to know that a nuclear reactor is an example of something that could be dangerous, and that your neighbors should not be building one--I was obviously suggesting that as an example of the absurd. But consider this: could a front porch ever be dangerous to your neighbors? The answer is yes, which is why we have building codes. As one with a libertarian-mindset, my goal is a much more limited government, and one that DOES allow any freedoms that do not infringe upon others' rights. However, I understand that in practice, that is hard to define. Hence the front porch example. Is your right to build whatever you want on your property more important than my right to not be injured when your homemade porch collapses when all I am trying to do is invite you over for a neighborly cook out??? I can see both sides of the issue and could even debate from both sides of it. Therefore I see that it is not black-and-white, and so I am not bothered by that particular type of law. Some people really are, and I understand that, too.

Look, I am frustrated with America, and I know we are not as free as we SHOULD be. But I have decided that I am not going to take the extreme position of dissatisfaction that I see throughout this thread. I am going to continue to do what I can, which doesn't feel like much, because I am a mother and I work and I don't have time to change the world. I can vote, I can speak up, and I can try to affect thought by posting my thoughts on this silly thread. If I change a few minds, then my tiny effort has been worthwhile. If I don't change any minds, at least maybe I've gotten you to THINK.

As a parting thought, consider this. What's worse: someone who does not believe in any shape or fashion that they are enslaved and lives a happy life, or a person who is so distressed by the idea that they are enslaved that they miss out on the beautifully free life they do have? I know many of you do mock those of us that reject the idea that we are all enslaved.

But I still maintain that we are as free as people have ever been in the history of the world--at least modern civilization. The world is at my feet like at no other time in history. Sure, we should not have to put up with the crap from the TSA when we travel, for example. But consider this: I am still free to travel anywhere in the world that I want to go. I would not have been free to do that 100 years ago. So you have 2 choices: complain about how we have lost our freedoms or enjoy the trip. There's a 3rd choice, too: become active politically and affect change. We can turn this around, and I think we can do it without the violent revolution I see some people longing for. I'm in my 40s. I have teenaged sons. I don't want a violent revolution. I also don't think that a violent revolution is necessary to bring about the types of change we want.

I could go on, but I won't. I've already said more than I intended to. I'm eternally an optimist--and I wouldn't change that about myself for anything!

reply to post by superballs


Self awareness should lead you to that answer. The answer is, this isn't your site. The moderator's have every right to uphold the rules and TOC you should have read when joining the site. This is Simon's site, and he's free to conduct it and impose rules on it as he wishes. That is the reality of freedom. This is his site, not yours. It's his freedom to do with what he will, not yours. So yes, in asking members to act in a adult and responsible way is very representative of the freedom we seek. Or do you pay the bills to keep this site running?

With freedom comes sacrifice. if it doesn't, your being tricked. It ain't free. That's my personal belief, anyways.

Does anyone have a working definition of what freedom means to them? I mean, American's of course will site the Constitution and it's Amendments. I'd like to ask everyone what their personal definition of freedom is. What do you think the ideal conditions should be to move us into our next era of development?

Originally posted by CirqueDeTruth
reply to post by superballs

 

Self awareness should lead you to that answer. The answer is, this isn't your site. The moderator's have every right to uphold the rules and TOC you should have read when joining the site. This is Simon's site, and he's free to conduct it and impose rules on it as he wishes. That is the reality of freedom. This is his site, not yours. It's his freedom to do with what he will, not yours. So yes, in asking members to act in a adult and responsible way is very representative of the freedom we seek. Or do you pay the bills to keep this site running?

With freedom comes sacrifice. if it doesn't, your being tricked. It ain't free. That's my personal belief, anyways.

lol but the airline owners shouldnt be able to decide who flies on there planes
and who gets searched?

reply to post by superballs


Touche! Lol.

But I disagree. This does not mean I'm your enemy though. It only means we are on opposite sides of an issue, and likely less opposite than we probably think. Perhaps what our biggest lesson in life (worldwide) should be compromise.

I really wish that America had the power to stop foreign trade for a fiscal year and get us back to where we are producing and surviving our lot on our own, in our own conditions and materials available. It might be a little bit of a sacrifice and backward slide - but it would be interesting to see the US stand apart and on it's own for awhile. I think that it will also be good for the moral of the American people, which I think low. At least for a long enough time to clean up the corruption within the Republic.

However, we have a responsibility to the world financial system. Americans consume so MUCH, that should we stop, just for one day spending money in foreign markets, they would collapse. Which is really why they hate us and we hate them. We need each other and don't want to have to, to continue our lifestyle.

I don't know what the answers are. But I know the extremist on any line are not the answer, and compromise likely is.

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl


You're frustrated that someone pointed out many potential flaws in your thinking or that you might have to rexamine your positions?

[anarchy]Sounds like
being able to do anything you want to the point of chaos 

I realize the modern cultural definition of anarchy means chaos to most people how ever lawlessness or the absence of law or government does not always equal chaos and one of the longest running freest most sophisticated societies in our history was an anarchist society that had a 1000 year run with none of the trappings of government most people deem essential today and they settled their problems in private and with private arbitration etc. We could learn a lot from them! www.mises.org... (PDF)

Society existed long before government and most things attributed to government are still created by society not government. www.mises.org...

Clearly, you can't know me from a few paragraphs here on ATS. Please assume I am smart enough to know that a nuclear reactor is an example of something that could be dangerous, and that your neighbors should not be building one--I was obviously suggesting that as an example of the absurd. But consider this: could a front porch ever be dangerous to your neighbors? The answer is yes, which is why we have building codes

No a porch is never a danger to your neighbors because it is on private property it can't explode or release radiation that could harm them on their property if they feel it is not safe to walk on your porch because of shoddy workmanship they are free to chose not to walk on the porch. Building codes do not protect anyone contrary to popular belief nor do they prevent shoddy workmanship as someone who grew up in the building trades I can attest to the fact that building codes only purpose is to bring revenue into local government coffers. Also I can attest to seeing plenty of shoddy unsafe workmanship despite them.

I have property in a county with no building codes and lo and behold no one has ever been injured or harmed by people free to build as they please with out any government oversight.

 Is your right to build whatever you want on your property more important than my right to not be injured when your homemade porch collapses when all I am trying to do is invite you over for a neighborly cook out???

Damn right it is! It's called personal responsibility. Where do you get off bringing government force to bear to pick my pockets for the privilege of building on my own property because you're worried my porch might fall on you? Here is a novel idea instead of getting government to steal the fruits of my labor under the guise of protecting you and do nothing to ensure I build a safe porch take responsibility for whose porch you chose to walk on!

Everyone wants government to look out for them and protect them instead of taking responsibility for their own actions. Building inspectors are the joke of the construction trades. Most of them are guys who could not make it in actual construction. So what does government do they steal everyones money under the guise of protection and protect no one. But all the brainwashed sheep still believe government is protecting them.

Yeah man government is protecting us alright they have poisoned our food and water supply, stolen our wealth crashed our economy, allowed corporations to harm us with thier GMO crops and poisons etc etc. and still people cry we need government oversight... Our you people insane? Excuse me if I prefer to make my own choices and take responsibility for may actions. But I'm seen as attacking the poor sheep who believe things aren't that bad...

Your errant beliefs have made it impossible for people like me to be free and that's why we're pissed! If I could move somewhere and leave you all to wallow in your garbage I would but you people have made it impossible and insist you must force your views through government force from building codes to taxation/theft to forced vaccinations and poisons in our food and water etc.

Why do I bother. You people who claim things are not that bad have a rude awakening coming. Things are going to get real bad and then before you die or end up in some government camp you will realize why people like us were angry but then it will be too late for you and maybe all of us.

I am not going to bother to respond to the rest there is no "other side" when it comes to freedom. It is black and white! It is easy to draw the line your freedom stops when it violates mine and visa versa it is that simple. Me building a porch is not harming you in any way shape or form you have no right to send government thugs to my house to steal my money and claim they can tell me how to build my porch. Until you realize that you are nowhere near a libertarian mindset!

Originally posted by superballs
reply to post by hawkiye

 

again another post that just proves my point

if you dont think like me your an idiot so your not free cause you dont think like me

why do you think you the right to clean water?

you know how many people on earth walk 3 miles with buckets just to stand in line for another 4 hour
to get buckets filled with a garden hose

how about all the ones that just get it from there local fishing,bathing.and bathroom hole

but you have the right to it and it should be free right??

because i dont think like you means im free and because you hate it so much means your a slave

Its not just about thinking differently. When ones thinking causes harm and strips away freedom then yeah they are an idiot and an enemy! When you try to put some mystical priest-craft incantations on it that because I hate people stepping on my freedom and you think its ok to send government thugs to step on my freedom that means you are free and I am a slave it just goes to show you don't give a damn that you and millions like you are stepping on our freedoms. You can whine all you like about it just being a disagreement however as long as you continue your errant harmful ways those of us who cherish freedom will continue to call out your errant thinking and the harm it causes!

Then you give an example of slaves who don't have clean water as if that is some excuse for me not to have the right to clean water WTF? I have a right not to be harmed period as do all men and women. Maximum freedom gives me the right to defend my rights. Government takes away those rights and allows people to foul the water and you do not see anything wrong with that... Sigh!

Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by superballs
reply to post by hawkiye

 

again another post that just proves my point

if you dont think like me your an idiot so your not free cause you dont think like me

why do you think you the right to clean water?

you know how many people on earth walk 3 miles with buckets just to stand in line for another 4 hour
to get buckets filled with a garden hose

how about all the ones that just get it from there local fishing,bathing.and bathroom hole

but you have the right to it and it should be free right??

because i dont think like you means im free and because you hate it so much means your a slave

Its not just about thinking differently. When ones thinking causes harm and strips away freedom then yeah they are an idiot and an enemy! When you try to put some mystical priest-craft incantations on it that because I hate people stepping on my freedom and you think its ok to send government thugs to step on my freedom that means you are free and I am a slave it just goes to show you don't give a damn that you and millions like you are stepping on our freedoms. You can whine all you like about it just being a disagreement however as long as you continue your errant harmful ways those of us who cherish freedom will continue to call out your errant thinking and the harm it causes!

Then you give an example of slaves who don't have clean water as if that is some excuse for me not to have the right to clean water WTF? I have a right not to be harmed period as do all men and women. Maximum freedom gives me the right to defend my rights. Government takes away those rights and allows people to foul the water and you do not see anything wrong with that... Sigh!

edit on 8-6-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)

now its government thugs

yep your right... there at my beck and call i send em here i send em there

you better watch out im coming for your water