Suicide and thread warnings.

Originally posted by g146541

Originally posted by pheonix358
OP you said "As I see it, mental problems cannot be "cured" therefore, they are an incurable condition."

This is wrong! It is so narrow a view as to be just plain crap.

Our society is unhappy about suicide because it shows a failure of the society.

I firmly believe that suicide is an appropriate option for terminal patients who wish to die with dignity.

In all other cases we should strive to repair the damage that our society has inflicted in the first place!

Interestingly it is the individual that ultimately decides the issue.

P

If mental problems can be "CURED", then why does the news always seem to mention when a person flips out and mows down folks in public, "The assailant it seems was off his medications".
Taking pills that make you feel like a zombie for the rest of your life is hardly a "CURE".

Because they are incapable of telling the truth. If they tell the truth it would be like this.

At 3yo his Mother died. After 7 years in an orphanage run by despicable Nuns with year after year of abuse his recovered alcoholic Father took him out but he died 6 weeks later. There was no help from society. He was placed in a foster home where he very slowly started to recover when at 13 his Foster Father died. There was no help from society. As the man tried to find his way in life through bouts of depression, marriage and divorce the man cracked. Not once in all of his life was there any help from the society he lived in.

And you wonder why these things happen. Open your eyes, even if just for a minute. This sort of story is Not newsworthy. It upsets the fragile viewer living in pretend la la land.

P

Originally posted by g146541

Originally posted by GmoS719

Originally posted by g146541

Originally posted by GmoS719
Suicide is wrong no matter how you look at it.
No matter how you spin it.

Kill one to save many....I don't like that idea.

edit on 6-6-2012 by GmoS719 because: (no reason given)

My Grandfather at the ripe young age of 87 ate the "lead pill", coated his garage ceiling and wall with his last thoughts.
My Grandma had passed 13 years before of natural causes.
All of my Grandpa's grandkids were grown and had kids or their own.
My Grandpa had beat colon cancer two years earlier at a great cost to his wellbeing and had just found out he had brain cancer.
Inside his house all over the counters and tables were pictures of his family, a sign that he was thinking hard about the subject at hand.
He left a simple note and had no regrets.
He did his job and did it well, he was ready to punch the clock and go home to Grandma.
I am totally fine with mu Grandpa's death, how do you feel?
Was he wrong?

To go 87 years of living just to end it like a coward?
Yeah I think that's wrong.

Then that is your right to be all the "tough guy" you want to be.
I understand why you cast names, it is your only defense.

I'm not casting names, I also wasn't calling your grandfather a coward.
I'm simply saying suicide is a cowardly act.
It's not about being tough.

Originally posted by GmoS719

Originally posted by g146541

Originally posted by GmoS719

Originally posted by g146541

Originally posted by GmoS719
Suicide is wrong no matter how you look at it.
No matter how you spin it.

Kill one to save many....I don't like that idea.

edit on 6-6-2012 by GmoS719 because: (no reason given)

My Grandfather at the ripe young age of 87 ate the "lead pill", coated his garage ceiling and wall with his last thoughts.
My Grandma had passed 13 years before of natural causes.
All of my Grandpa's grandkids were grown and had kids or their own.
My Grandpa had beat colon cancer two years earlier at a great cost to his wellbeing and had just found out he had brain cancer.
Inside his house all over the counters and tables were pictures of his family, a sign that he was thinking hard about the subject at hand.
He left a simple note and had no regrets.
He did his job and did it well, he was ready to punch the clock and go home to Grandma.
I am totally fine with mu Grandpa's death, how do you feel?
Was he wrong?

To go 87 years of living just to end it like a coward?
Yeah I think that's wrong.

Then that is your right to be all the "tough guy" you want to be.
I understand why you cast names, it is your only defense.

I'm not casting names, I also wasn't calling your grandfather a coward.
I'm simply saying suicide is a cowardly act.
It's not about being tough.

edit on 6-6-2012 by GmoS719 because: (no reason given)

That is how it seemed sure enough, but I am not above errors myself.
Why continue on in pain if you are so close to the end then?
If your response is for religious reasons, no response is needed and I will understand I cannot reach your thinking.

Originally posted by g146541

Originally posted by Murgatroid

Originally posted by g146541.
I am totally fine with mu Grandpa's death, how do you feel?
Was he wrong?

The REAL question is: what does GOD say about it?

I realize that many will fall back on a book written by a king to manipulate his peasants into killing for his banner.
Religion is a tool to control the weak masses.

I used to think that too. You may wish to skip this post. (just read your earlier response). I won't be hurt if you do.

This part of (is it morgatroid?)'s post... When Jesus came to me he spoke just like that. Not the words, but how the words mean like 8 things all at once. I can tell this person was talking to god.

"My thoughts were communicated so fast that they weren't even completed before I absorbed his response:

"You think that was hard? It is nothing compared to what awaits you if you take your life."

When the Father spoke, each of his words exploded into a complex of meanings, like fireworks, tiny balls of light that erupted into a billion bits of information, filling me with streams of vivid truth and pure understanding."

Personally I would be too scared of what might happen to me if I killed myself. I've tried to cheat this game of life before, not through suicide mind you, and this is unallowed. Somehow there are rules. Whatever there was before we came here, I think we came here with an understanding. An agreement or a purpose.

I still can't wrap my head around eternity in hell though. I just can't see any point in that. You could never learn anymore after that. Just eternal regret? I kind of feel like it's a fear tactic god uses. Same time I'm not going to test it.

By the way I'm not a christian in so much as the church. I met Jesus once. He changed my life. I still don't understand why he came to me. It was weird, and all he wanted me to do was be a better person. He said nothing about being a savior or any of that stuff.

But seriously though,
My main point is that you cannot cheat this game.
you can't cheat life, and you can't cheat death.

Mental illness is not curable but it can be managed. Not really a good reason at all. I understand how someone could feel that way when depressed, but I think everything should be done in that case to stop that person.
Now something that makes your own body a painful un-curable prison that will eventually take your life anyway, I can understand. That's a difficult thing to draw a line on really. There are certain cases that make a good argument for it. I might not be popular for this thought but...I think medically assisted suicides should be legal. A DR could turn down patients with manageable conditions, then send them to someone who can help them cope. It could be something the whole family goes in to discuss in ligit cases. Then everyone can weigh in on how it effects them.
I KNOW my grandmother would have rather been put to sleep quietly, rather than the pure hell hospice was. Hospice did the best they could to make her comfortable, but it was a matter of when and nothing could dent the horrible pain.
Mostly the ones who tell people that they are thinking about it, usually need/want the most help. There is a shred of them that second guesses it, meaning they probably do have something (however small) to live for. Not every suicide is OK or justified.

Originally posted by g146541
That is how it seemed sure enough, but I am not above errors myself.
Why continue on in pain if you are so close to the end then?
If your response is for religious reasons, no response is needed and I will understand I cannot reach your thinking.

My opinion has little to do with religion.
I just feel like commiting suicide is taking the easy way out.
Anyone can pull a trigger.
Everyone has to deal with the loss of loved ones through out life.

And on a religious stand point, you wouldn't be able to be with your loved ones
that caused the pain in the first place.

reply to post by PutAQuarterIn


Star to a logical thinker.
There are many paths on the road, some are just to afraid of getting lost on the sidestreets.

Originally posted by GmoS719

Originally posted by g146541
That is how it seemed sure enough, but I am not above errors myself.
Why continue on in pain if you are so close to the end then?
If your response is for religious reasons, no response is needed and I will understand I cannot reach your thinking.

My opinion has little to do with religion.
I just feel like commiting suicide is taking the easy way out.
Anyone can pull a trigger.
Everyone has to deal with the loss of loved ones through out life.

And on a religious stand point, you wouldn't be able to be with your loved ones
that caused the pain in the first place.

I don't see how you can call "the easy way out" when it comes to and old person who has LIVED and has nothing left to live for except for pain.
Would you keep a braindead person on life support forever just because you did not want to give them "the easy way out"?

We are obviously not going to get anywhere on the subject because you are set in you opinion and
I am set in mine. Let's agree to disagree?

For those who are speaking about the pain that is caused to those left behind... this is due to the culturally ingrained teaching. Different cultures react very differently to all sorts of things. Some things that cause extreme distress in the west wouldn't cause a blink in the east, and vice versa.

There are very different forms of suicide. "Hell" is when your mind is hellish... "Heaven" is when your mind is heavenly. THAT is the important factor for what you can expect to experience afterwards. If you go on a vacation because you are angry, you generally have an angry vacation. If you are done with work, ready to retire, and can't wait to see what's next... you generally have a fantastic vacation.

It is our own judgements of other people's behaviors that we don't understand and should have NO SAY OVER that causes all this "oh woe is me... someone I cared about was in so much pain (or excited to move on) that they would prefer that over being with us... they should have suffered more for our sake". It's absolute pure selfishness and if our culture taught and supported an HONEST approach to suicide rather than this veiled "we say we care about you, but it's really about us and our feelings".

Far too many people wasting away in hospitals and nursing homes (or mental institutions) are destroying family savings, crushing wonderful memories, and creating awful new ones simply because the people who *aren't* going through the torment won't let the person who is make up their own mind.

We let people beat the crap out of their heads for sport rendering them barely useful (football and boxing in particular)... that's ok... make yourself utterly mentally and physically handicapped for my amusement... but dare suggest that THEY don't want to keep suffering along with us and suddenly THEY are the evil one?

No. Why can they volunteer for one form of self destruction, but not the other?

If we had a compassionate approach to this, the ones that wound up doing it would go into it with enthusiasm and relief rather than terror and torment. Knowing that their family loved them so much to let them go when they were suffering that much. And guess what magic happens when a person experiences this rather than judgement and guilt trips? Many of the issues that "drive" people to suicide melt away when the person is accepted for who they are and their honest feelings are honestly respected.

You guys who keep quoting the bible are falling for the same fear tactics used everywhere else to paint an irrational and absolutely horrific image of God/Tao/Infinity/The Universe that makes no sense if you really sit down and think it through. If you keep being told "you will burn in hell", then the person who is trapped... and everything in their soul and heart is saying "I must go" is going to be PROGRAMMED with the hellish mindset and thus create it for themselves.

We create our own heavens and hells. Stop blaming someone else and take responsibility.

Namaste.

Originally posted by g146541
I don't see how you can call "the easy way out" when it comes to and old person who has LIVED and has nothing left to live for except for pain.

Reality and what you BELIEVE are two entirely separate things:

The pain will be severe...

“Tell her that if she decides to go through with the taking of her life, there are eternal consequences that she will have to deal with for the rest of her eternal life. The PAIN that she will cause her daughter and immediate family members will be severe and permanent!

" Do you want to spend the rest of your eternal life in hell and have to deal with all the PAIN that is in hell in addition to knowing the pain that your daughter will have while she is in heaven – the pain of being eternally separated from you forever?

Do you want to roll the dice and take your chances that this will not happen – knowing full well that one of the 10 commandments is “thou shall not murder” – including yourself?

Read full article

Originally posted by GmoS719

I'm simply saying suicide is a cowardly act.

Far from it.

Only an idiot would think that. It goes against every evolutionary biological instinct we have. In fact, the fear of death is so ingrained into our daily lives and dictates so many of our decisions and reactions that you don't even realize it is the root of a lot until you really think about it.

All fear can be traced to the fear of dying (the fear of the unknown), and to kill yourself and take that leap into the unknown is one of the least cowardly things that I can think of.

Originally posted by GmoS719
We are obviously not going to get anywhere on the subject because you are set in you opinion and
I am set in mine. Let's agree to disagree?

Agreed, star to you.

reply to post by ErgoTheConfusion


I felt no sorrow when my Grandpa left this world, I know he was done with this place and he did a great job.
No sad feelings just envy for all of the information he was about to receive.

Originally posted by paradox

Originally posted by GmoS719

I'm simply saying suicide is a cowardly act.

Far from it.

Only an idiot would think that. It goes against every evolutionary biological instinct we have. In fact, the fear of death is so ingrained into our daily lives and dictates so many of our decisions and reactions that you don't even realize it is the root of a lot until you really think about it.

All fear can be traced to the fear of dying, and to kill yourself and take that leap into the unknown is one of the least cowardly things that I can think of.

edit on 6-6-12 by paradox because: (no reason given)

I think you have it backwards, isn't survival our biological instinct?
Only an idiot would think otherwise.
See how it can go both ways?
Let's be mature here.

Originally posted by GmoS719

Only an idiot would think otherwise.
See how it can go both ways?
Let's be mature here.

No, I don't, because your reasoning is not rooted in logic.

reply to post by Murgatroid


It sure is a good thing that I am not bound by mens thoughts and rules.
The holy books of history have been written by men, men with agendas.
Unless you could show me the one written by god, I will also need a writing sample from god please.

Originally posted by GmoS719

I think you have it backwards, isn't survival our biological instinct?

Did I not just say suicide goes against all biological instincts?

Originally posted by GmoS719

Originally posted by paradox

Originally posted by GmoS719

I'm simply saying suicide is a cowardly act.

Far from it.

Only an idiot would think that. It goes against every evolutionary biological instinct we have. In fact, the fear of death is so ingrained into our daily lives and dictates so many of our decisions and reactions that you don't even realize it is the root of a lot until you really think about it.

All fear can be traced to the fear of dying, and to kill yourself and take that leap into the unknown is one of the least cowardly things that I can think of.

edit on 6-6-12 by paradox because: (no reason given)

I think you have it backwards, isn't survival our biological instinct?
Only an idiot would think otherwise.
See how it can go both ways?
Let's be mature here.

edit on 6-6-2012 by GmoS719 because: (no reason given)

I would generally agree that surviving would "generally" be the primary instinct.
However, when it is the fourth quarter and you are down by 100 points and only 30 seconds left, you learn to accept alot.

The human species (and all others, and the planet and the universe) is ultimately one body. Your own body is similarly made up of a huge variety of organisms, some of your own species some not.

Those cells and organisms have built in cues for when they've gone off track and need to self destruct in the best interest of the body and themselves. They "feel" it and do it.

Consider the difference in society if:

1) People who DID want to commit suicide could speak openly and honestly... will almost always opt out of the suicide if their feelings are finally heard and respected. Most who are going into it sadly feel they have no one left to turn to who will understand. Don't try to pretend it's not true... many many people dismiss the signs and clues until it actually happens... even "well maybe I'll just kill myself!" type threats... they are told to grow up... get over it... etc.

2) If those who STILL want to go through it don't have to keep sucking away time, energy, emotions, money, etc from those who are still moving on with their lives.

3) We didn't have this massive guilt complex about all these people we care about that we have tucked away in hospitals, nursing homes, and mental institutions. BOTH sides tend to feel guilty, and the side which wishes to move on feels like a burden. The family says they aren't in the same way we tell people they are going to be just fine when they have a terminal condition and nobody wants to tell them.

We as a body do not benefit from our current stance, and we CAN do it better without becoming cruel and heartless "only the strong may survive". The compassionate stance is "only those who WANT TO survive".

Guess which cells in a body refuse to die (or prevented if you wish) when they are supposed to? Cancer. There comes that analogy of modern human society again.

Namaste